Anyone else dumping the M3/4 for a Cayman GT4?

[Revcrazy]

Originally Posted by beanboy

I specced my car to be comfortable on the street as well as the track....

N1 Sapphire Blue Metallic $710
68 Leather Interior, Black (Stitching in Guards Red) $1,090
620 Bi-Xenon Headlights in Black incl. Porsche Dynamic Light
System (PDLS) $690
P13 Auto-Dimming Mirrors with Integrated Rain Sensor $690
XUB Headlight Cleaning System Covers in Exterior Color Exclusive $295
085 Extended Fuel Tank, 16.91 gal $0
480 Manual Transmission $0
473 20" GT4 Wheels $0
342 Seat Heating $530
573 2-zone Automatic Climate Control $760
581 Luggage Net in Passenger Footwell $0
630 Light Design Package $340
750 Deviated Stitching i.c.w. Leather Interior $1,490
P07 Adaptive Sport Seats Plus (18-way) with Memory Package $2,635
P23 Porsche Communication Management (PCM) incl. Navigation Module $2,965

I don't get people who say they won't make good DD's. I've daily driven a 911 and cayman S and has no issues. A 991S with is much more sophisticated suspension and higher quality tuning and parts soak up bumps and rides so well yet handles much better and is stiffer than 99% of cars.
The GT4 will make a perfectly acceptable DD just won't be as practical as an m3/4. If you want a caddy ride then buy one.

[RIP1981]

Originally Posted by Revcrazy

I don't get people who say they won't make good DD's. I've daily driven a 911 and cayman S and has no issues. A 991S with is much more sophisticated suspension and higher quality tuning and parts soak up bumps and rides so well yet handles much better and is stiffer than 99% of cars.
The GT4 will make a perfectly acceptable DD just won't be as practical as an m3/4. If you want a caddy ride then buy one.

People don't understand, that the GT4 is a whole different category of car.

My DD is a Cayman S (987) with manual and I drove several 981 ... Non S and S and several 911 (991 S, 991 4S, 997 4S).

And all of them can't be compared to the Porsche GT Class. They are made for DD and the PASM is very comfy. The 981 S is even a better DD than my 987 manual and mechanical suspension.

I went to Porsche meetings a lot and know a lot of people who drive a 911 GT3. You really can't compare a 911 GT3 to a 911 S. The difference between say the Cayman Non S and the Cayman GTS is a lot smaller than the difference between the GTS and the GT4.
The difference between the 991 S and the 991 GT3 or 997 GT3 is even bigger.

Those cars have problems accessing a parking lot even with lowered entry.
You have to drive them really really careful in DD situations.

They are designed to be able to drive from home garage to racing track and back. Not anymore. You may use them for nice streets also. But DD is a different story.

All of the people who own a GT3 I know, use it for the race track and have different cars for DD. They even use different cars driving to the Porsche meeting and only GT3 if weather is good and location is ok for such a low car.

So a GT3 or GT4 is not just a 911 or Cayman with more beef like GTS compared to S.

It is car for the racetrack which can drive lap after lap without any tuning parts or any problems. Even when a usual 991 S or Cayman S will have to take a break.

So don't make the mistake to see the GT4 as a faster GTS. It is different. Louder, harder, lower. You can even tune the suspension yourself stock.

BMW M4 is more like a 991 S but not in the same world as any Porsche GT car. BMW doesn't have anything comparable stock ...

[beanboy]

I admit, the lowered ride is my biggest concerned about driving around town.

I'm curious how the ride height will compare to my Ferrari 360, which is already pretty low for tooling around town.

Parker

[Revcrazy]

Originally Posted by RIP1981

People don't understand, that the GT4 is a whole different category of car.

My DD is a Cayman S (987) with manual and I drove several 981 ... Non S and S and several 911 (991 S, 991 4S, 997 4S).

And all of them can't be compared to the Porsche GT Class. They are made for DD and the PASM is very comfy. The 981 S is even a better DD than my 987 manual and mechanical suspension.

I went to Porsche meetings a lot and know a lot of people who drive a 911 GT3. You really can't compare a 911 GT3 to a 911 S. The difference between say the Cayman Non S and the Cayman GTS is a lot smaller than the difference between the GTS and the GT4.
The difference between the 991 S and the 991 GT3 or 997 GT3 is even bigger.

Those cars have problems accessing a parking lot even with lowered entry.
You have to drive them really really careful in DD situations.

They are designed to be able to drive from home garage to racing track and back. Not anymore. You may use them for nice streets also. But DD is a different story.

All of the people who own a GT3 I know, use it for the race track and have different cars for DD. They even use different cars driving to the Porsche meeting and only GT3 if weather is good and location is ok for such a low car.

So a GT3 or GT4 is not just a 911 or Cayman with more beef like GTS compared to S.

It is car for the racetrack which can drive lap after lap without any tuning parts or any problems. Even when a usual 991 S or Cayman S will have to take a break.

So don't make the mistake to see the GT4 as a faster GTS. It is different. Louder, harder, lower. You can even tune the suspension yourself stock.

BMW M4 is more like a 991 S but not in the same world as any Porsche GT car. BMW doesn't have anything comparable stock ...

I totally agree with everything you said especially the last sentence.

GT Porsches have gotten more DD friendly (most everything has) and while more suitable, not the most ideal choice depending on where you live/drive.

I would never even put Cayman GT4 and GTS in the same sentence as they are worlds apart and do not share all that much once you go beyond the chasis and body.

The GT4 is certainly a different category of car. Its a hardcore track type car than can be suitably driven on the street, not the other way around.

[consolidated]

Originally Posted by RIP1981

People don't understand, that the GT4 is a whole different category of car.

My DD is a Cayman S (987) with manual and I drove several 981 ... Non S and S and several 911 (991 S, 991 4S, 997 4S).

And all of them can't be compared to the Porsche GT Class. They are made for DD and the PASM is very comfy. The 981 S is even a better DD than my 987 manual and mechanical suspension.

I went to Porsche meetings a lot and know a lot of people who drive a 911 GT3. You really can't compare a 911 GT3 to a 911 S. The difference between say the Cayman Non S and the Cayman GTS is a lot smaller than the difference between the GTS and the GT4.
The difference between the 991 S and the 991 GT3 or 997 GT3 is even bigger.

Those cars have problems accessing a parking lot even with lowered entry.
You have to drive them really really careful in DD situations.

They are designed to be able to drive from home garage to racing track and back. Not anymore. You may use them for nice streets also. But DD is a different story.

All of the people who own a GT3 I know, use it for the race track and have different cars for DD. They even use different cars driving to the Porsche meeting and only GT3 if weather is good and location is ok for such a low car.

So a GT3 or GT4 is not just a 911 or Cayman with more beef like GTS compared to S.

It is car for the racetrack which can drive lap after lap without any tuning parts or any problems. Even when a usual 991 S or Cayman S will have to take a break.

So don't make the mistake to see the GT4 as a faster GTS. It is different. Louder, harder, lower. You can even tune the suspension yourself stock.

BMW M4 is more like a 991 S but not in the same world as any Porsche GT car. BMW doesn't have anything comparable stock ...

I agree, one has to drive a GT or RS a few times to understand. My RS is a hassle to drive around town, hard as a rock clutch (gives you sewing machine leg), no flywheel so hard to launch and grabby, stiff springs, so low it drags on everything, noisy with less soundproofing, radio is TERRIBLE, fixed position seats....it's only a good DD for the hard core posers.

[RIP1981]

A GT3 RS is even a bit more hardcore

Once tested the clutch. I wouldn't survive the first traffic jam. And I always have jam after work ...

I would need to drive at the roadside to take a break

But a very very cool car on track

GT3s and especially GT3 RS are tools rather than usual cars. They just do the job of racing. Lap after lap without getting slower.

Most cars are presented with one single fast lap for the public. ONE single lap.

But take those Nissan GTRs or Corvettes without any tuning for 10 or 15 hot laps, hard pushing until you have to refuel. I guess even in the second lap Nordschleife something would fail or make them slower, while a GT3 (RS) goes on and on without an overheating brake or stuff.

While in the first lap a GTR or Z06 might perhabs beat a GT3 RS if driven by good drivers, they will be massively slower in the 10th lap without break or changed parts compared to stock.

[consolidated]

Here's a good post from a respected poster from another board, this person knows P cars and writes for magazines.

First, a note about who the GT4 is for. I'll suggest that if you don't track or compete regularly this probably isn't the car for you.

The jump in spring rate from the X73 sports suspension to the GT4 is nearly three times larger than the jump from base to X73.
The GT4 is likely as stiff or stiffer than the 997 GT3, a car that Porsche softened with the 991 because many customers found it too harsh.
Heavier brakes, uprights, stiffer shocks, R compound tires all hurt ride quality.
The Cayman GTS was optimized for the street and was Porsche's best effort for that use. The GT4 took that and re-focused it towards the track. The street Caymans are clustered in terms of spring rate, this is off in left field.


I'm not suggesting the GT4 will be a pure track car, but I think many of us understand that GT cars are somewhat compromised on the street in order to be better on the track- ride quality, ride height, poise over bigger bumps, etc. However if you haven't been exposed to this, as many Cayman owners won't, there's a temptation to think that the GT4 is simply a "better" Cayman GTS. It's not. It's a car that's focused more on the track and less on the street. For most people this means it's likely a step backwards on the street, which is why Porsche makes most of its street cars softer.

Switching topics, I thought I'd add these cutaways showing the rear strut suspension for the record. There was some confusion about double wishbones, but the GT4 clearly sticks with (improved) rear struts. I suspect the relatively high rear wheel rates are designed to limit suspension travel to keep it within the relatively narrow range it can work well:

[CalSE]

For those who think they will get one, have you been offered the car at or above MSRP?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

this is exactly why i think some cars are "comparable" even if they are very different cars. you're looking for something that puts a smile on your face.

you and I are alone on this one I guess ...

For me it's purely about value - if one car is a GREAT dual use car for a GREAT price that would beat an excellent track car for a horrible price. I would argue anyone who's buying a car over $40k is buying on pure emotion - smiles per mile per buck.

If the GT4 is a more emotional car for a better price I'll buy it over the M4 ... It's pretty hard to inject logic into my choice of a $85000 2+2 with no trunk space ... all of sudden I'm going to be reasonable & categorical about my comparisons??

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by CalSE

For those who think they will get one, have you been offered the car at or above MSRP?

Mine will be at MSRP and my dealer has 15 + firm orders.

[darkalley]

This is a super profitable car for Porsche and based on this, other boards and comments from friends this will be in high demand and not be a "limited run". If the car is as harsh as some think (from a suspension standpoint" this car will go the way of the 997 GT3 and change hands a lot during months 6-12 because it will be too extreme. This is a weekend racer and will be somewhat extreme. Good news for people looking for a slightly used one!!!

[DocWeatherington]

AWESOME Info- A track special. Great Job Evo.. sorry if this is a repost.

Towards the end, a few comments have been made about P-Cars and NA motors... Hopefully Bmw will follow suit

[beanboy]

Offered one at msrp. Was completely new customer to the dealer. They were happy to take my deposit for the #6 (and now some ppl have canceled so I'm in the #4) spot.

[Trips]

The GT4 is going to be an amazing car for sure, one that's going to be very difficult to get. Not to be a Debbie downer, but those that have placed deposits and have even specced out your cars, I'd say there's a good chance your deposit will be refunded and order cancelled. Hell, the number of allocations hasn't even been announced yet. With dealerships getting one maybe two, the big ballers and long time customers will get first dibs. It'll be VERY unlikely a first time customer will get a GT4, no matter where you are on the list and no matter what your salesman tells you. Hope I'm wrong...

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Trips

The GT4 is going to be an amazing car for sure, one that's going to be very difficult to get. Not to be a Debbie downer, but those that have placed deposits and have even specced out your cars, I'd say there's a good chance your deposit will be refunded and order cancelled. Hell, the number of allocations hasn't even been announced yet. With dealerships getting one maybe two, the big ballers and long time customers will get first dibs. It'll be VERY unlikely a first time customer will get a GT4, no matter where you are on the list and no matter what your salesman tells you. Hope I'm wrong...

Fortunately I put my order in about 3 months ago before the hoopla started. My dealer is hoping for a June production car for myself.

[Trips]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Fortunately I put my order in about 3 months ago before the hoopla started. My dealer is hoping for a June production car for myself.

I did as well and I'm hopeful also. But I also know that I'm not one of the guys that bought a 918 or 20+ cars at my dealership, and I know those guys can cut in line wherever and whenever they want, just reality.

Good luck to all of us and looking forwards to they delivery pics, whether its this June or next =)

[consolidated]

Porsche does have a large percentage of repeat buyers. I was told if a AA+ customer wants a GT4 they will get one ahead of me. However, most Porsche buyers have no interest in the lowly Cayman and still see it as a starter 911. That group buys lots of 911s, Panas, & Cayennes, and I believe very few will be interested in the GT4. GT buyers are their own group anyways.

Porsche clearly wants to upset that order a bit however, and is reaching out to new, younger buyers who aren't as afflicted with the 911 is Porsche, Mezger, I've arrived, mythology. The GT4 marketing campaign is full of "Rebel" and disrupter branding. Cars will be hard to get, but it's going to be from people wanting to get under their tent. Porsche sells very few Caymans. In 2012 Porsche sold about 143,000 cars, only 11,740 were Boxsters AND Caymans combined.

Porsche marketing hype is always pitch perfect in building desire but then also providing the market a correct number of cars or just a few short of "whoever wants one will get one". The challenge with this GT car seems to be production capacity.

What we thing of as relative bargain, if you read some Porsche boards you'll see comments like "No way am I ever going to pay close to $100K for a Cayman." Despite happily paying that much for a Porsche-VW SUV.

If we're getting 600 cars, let's say 50 go to 918 buyers, that leaves fewer than 3 cars on average per dealer.

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by beanboy

Offered one at msrp. Was completely new customer to the dealer. They were happy to take my deposit for the #6 (and now some ppl have canceled so I'm in the #4) spot.

Wow, that's very cool, good luck with that, hopefully you'll be able to come back in here to show us some pictures of your new beast when you'll get it!!

[Alex07M3]

Originally Posted by darkalley

This is a super profitable car for Porsche and based on this, other boards and comments from friends this will be in high demand and not be a "limited run". If the car is as harsh as some think (from a suspension standpoint" this car will go the way of the 997 GT3 and change hands a lot during months 6-12 because it will be too extreme. This is a weekend racer and will be somewhat extreme. Good news for people looking for a slightly used one!!!

That'd be awsome, I can't justify paying 100k(+15% taxe) for a track car that is streetable, but in a couple of years, I'd be all over these if I can get one for ~70-80k(+10% taxe on the used market). That would leave me some budget for something like a used S5 to daily drive.

[Trips]

Originally Posted by consolidated

Porsche does have a large percentage of repeat buyers. I was told if a AA+ customer wants a GT4 they will get one ahead of me. However, most Porsche buyers have no interest in the lowly Cayman and still see it as a starter 911. That group buys lots of 911s, Panas, & Cayennes, and I believe very few will be interested in the GT4. GT buyers are their own group anyways.

Porsche clearly wants to upset that order a bit however, and is reaching out to new, younger buyers who aren't as afflicted with the 911 is Porsche, Mezger, I've arrived, mythology. The GT4 marketing campaign is full of "Rebel" and disrupter branding. Cars will be hard to get, but it's going to be from people wanting to get under their tent. Porsche sells very few Caymans. In 2012 Porsche sold about 143,000 cars, only 11,740 were Boxsters AND Caymans combined.

Porsche marketing hype is always pitch perfect in building desire but then also providing the market a correct number of cars or just a few short of "whoever wants one will get one". The challenge with this GT car seems to be production capacity.

If we're getting 600 cars, let's say 50 go to 918 buyers, that leaves fewer than 3 cars on average per dealer.

I think we can all speculate this and that and crunch all the numbers we want, but in the end we will all just have to wait and see what happens. Dealers don't even know how many they will be getting yet, so I think it's hard to know if you will get one this year based just on that.

On a positive note, I spoke with the Porsche NA rep at the Chicago auto show a couple days ago, he said they will not limit the production of the GT4. But they are limited in the number they can produce per year. In the end, everyone that wants one will get one, however it may not right away.

[Trips]

Originally Posted by Revcrazy

I don't get people who say they won't make good DD's. I've daily driven a 911 and cayman S and has no issues. A 991S with is much more sophisticated suspension and higher quality tuning and parts soak up bumps and rides so well yet handles much better and is stiffer than 99% of cars.
The GT4 will make a perfectly acceptable DD just won't be as practical as an m3/4. If you want a caddy ride then buy one.

LOL bro, it'll be a horrible daily driver. A daily driver should at least have a decent ride, creature comforts, and possibly some storage space. The GT4 is a track car you can drive on the street, plain and simple. If the clutch is anything like the 997.2 GT3, your left leg is gonna take a beating. And the ride, it'll be nothing like a 991S or Cayman S. It's gonna be rough, real rough. My wife wanted nothing to do with my GT3 when I had it, nothing.

[Gearhead999s]

I drove this GT3 RS for a few days trying to decide if I could live with it as an everyday vehicle and the answer was a resounding no!Way too rough and not an easy car to drive at low speeds due to the lack of flywheel inertia and really noisy at idle for the same reasons!I should have bought that car but as a third car but that did not work at the time.