Reported SCH due to engine design flaw while using CBC?

[MisterF80M3]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

What exactly happened? They had CBC only and slipped their crank hubs. I wrote about it a couple times. If you want to run CBC only have at it. It's definitely better than nothing and a great first step. The complete solution is both a CBC and the spline lock.

This theme comes up every few months. If you want to reduce the risk, CBC is great. If you want a complete solution... CBC and spline lock. Not wanting to do a hub doesn't change this.

If skepticism prevails, I would suggest calling local dealerships and more importantly performance shops and asking them about their experiences. I've answered this question dozens of times. I do not track CBC only car hub slips, nor do I track stock setup slips -reason being, we know there is an issue.


Chris

So the only details you got is "the crank hub slipped with a CBC?" Sounds very promising.

Only thing I found under your name is people talking about your spline lock slipping numerous times and one with your spline lock + CBC.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1679594

[MadM2C]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

Well, if performance shops are scammers trying to get more labor.... and vendors are scammers selling the parts that aren't necessary..... I guess dealerships are the trusted place to go to for a modified car? Don't the dealerships void warranty for a tune only on a stock car? Do you think someone will come in to the dealership with FBO and big turbos and a slipped crank hub hoping the 'ole puppy dog eyes trick will work on the SA?

The problem is real and should be addressed with appropriate actions. Part of that is your willingness to accept risk. If you choose to do something differently, that's on you. We've stated (many times)... a CBC by itself will reduce risk, but the only complete solution is the combination of both the CBC and the spline lock. We'll sell you the CBC today and the spline lock later should you change your mind no prob.

Have a non-SCH day!

Chris

Not at all, I’m actually not saying SCH is “fake” or calling shops scam artists. But I do certainly believe it’s over played, in my unprofessional opinion 😂. Big turbos E85 Is a bit of an extreme example.

[lookitsapples]

Originally Posted by MadM2C

Not at all, I’m actually not saying SCH is “fake” or calling shops scam artists. But I do certainly believe it’s over played, in my unprofessional opinion 😂. Big turbos E85 Is a bit of an extreme example.

Over played or not, it's smarter to not take the chance even if it's a small chance. Just a quick youtube search and I found two Youtubers with barely built m3's that have spun their crank hubs and now have spent thousands of dollars to fix.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by MisterF80M3

Only thing I found under your name is people talking about your spline lock slipping numerous times and one with your spline lock + CBC.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1679594

Hey man, you do whatever you want to your car. What you can't do, is make me -as part of the VTT team and a mechanical engineer- tell you that, sure, hub + CBC is gonna be just fine. I'm honestly not sure what you want. I've seen -first hand- modded cars that are on the mild side with a slipped hub. Roughly speaking the quantity we have seen increases with power potential, but we've also seen stock cars do it (we have a good relationship with the local dealer, and they sometimes put a CBC on some otherwise stock cars during the fix). That's really all you need to know. I don't track this data because it's meaningless to me; problem is understood and solved. I can give you anecdotal data which may or may not be good about my opinion on risk, but there are many factors that play in; driving style, transmission, mods, tune, power output, etc.

P.S. I did a quick search, less than 10 seconds:

Post 17.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...9#post26226199

CBC reduces risk, CBC & spline lock are the complete solution.

[MisterF80M3]

Originally Posted by MadM2C

Kinda goes along with what I’m saying. If you call performance shops that do the crank hub fix, of course they’re going to tell you to do it. You guys make a killing off the parts AND labor.

I’ve called a few dealerships actually, the last SA I’ve spoken too said he’s seen 2 slips in 5 years of the cars being out.

I have 2 friends that work as service advisors at the largest BMW dealership in the Bay Area and he has only seen 1 slip out of the 5 years the car has been out. It was a highly modified track car.

Originally Posted by lookitsapples

Over played or not, it's smarter to not take the chance even if it's a small chance. Just a quick youtube search and I found two Youtubers with barely built m3's that have spun their crank hubs and now have spent thousands of dollars to fix.

No one is disputing the fact that there is SCH here.. We are talking about SCH with CBC, hence the title of this thread.

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

Hey man, you do whatever you want to your car. What you can't do, is make me -as part of the VTT team and a mechanical engineer- tell you that, sure, hub + CBC is gonna be just fine. I'm honestly not sure what you want. I've seen -first hand- modded cars that are on the mild side with a slipped hub. Roughly speaking the quantity we have seen increases with power potential, but we've also seen stock cars do it (we have a good relationship with the local dealer, and they sometimes put a CBC on some otherwise stock cars during the fix). That's really all you need to know. I don't track this data because it's meaningless to me; problem is understood and solved. I can give you anecdotal data which may or may not be good about my opinion on risk, but there are many factors that play in; driving style, transmission, mods, tune, power output, etc.

P.S. I did a quick search, less than 10 seconds:

Post 17.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...9#post26226199

CBC reduces risk, CBC & spline lock are the complete solution.

If it was so easy to find the post, why not just post it yourself?

You start the post saying "I don't know the exact detail." Sounds very credible....

So where are you hearing these story from? There has been no information on a SCH with CBC on this forum, FB group, or spool forums. You are the only person mentioning a SCH with CBC. Quite ironic that the only person that mentions a SCH with CBC is the manufactures that sells the part for a "complete fix" that is 6x the price. Fear monger more?

[E92inSG]

Sorry misterf80, just as a very neutral bystander, what are you hoping to get out of this discussion? For VTT to confirm 100% that there have not been any spun hubs with CBC alone? It’s just starting to go round in circles here.

So let’s say there are no verified cases of spun hub with CBC, what do you gain from that as well?

If you wants VTT to guarantee that with the CBC only, your hub won’t spin, you know that’s not gonna happen right?

For what it’s worth I’m CBC- only.

[Bmwlmr99]

89,000 miles stage 2 tune , full bolt on...no crank hub mods.... all the gt4 bmw m4...have no crank hub mods ...spoke to the techs and crew chiefs at cota and road Atlanta

[deeldoo]

Trust me CBC is everything. Friction plates don't go without that bolt backing out.

Everything else is fake news.

[Groganrocket]

I’m doing just CBC this week.

[FreeDarko]

There has been 1 or 2 members from UK who had SCH and CBC solution alone didn't work.

Litchfield confirmed as well. (Edit: more importantly the 2 referred here experienced SCH and then tried to just do CBC which didn't work. They didn't have anyone that did CBC as preventative and then experienced SCH, atleast not till we spoke end of 2019.)

Even Litchfield stated that if you haven't experienced SCH then CBC is more than adequate in all cases and they only do the additional work if and when it does occur in the rare occasion.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

Originally Posted by MisterF80M3

I have 2 friends that work as service advisors at the largest BMW dealership in the Bay Area and he has only seen 1 slip out of the 5 years the car has been out. It was a highly modified track car.



No one is disputing the fact that there is SCH here.. We are talking about SCH with CBC, hence the title of this thread.



If it was so easy to find the post, why not just post it yourself?

You start the post saying "I don't know the exact detail." Sounds very credible....

So where are you hearing these story from? There has been no information on a SCH with CBC on this forum, FB group, or spool forums. You are the only person mentioning a SCH with CBC. Quite ironic that the only person that mentions a SCH with CBC is the manufactures that sells the part for a "complete fix" that is 6x the price. Fear monger more?

I'm here to answer questions about products we offer, help people make good decisions. Not pander to those who have an agenda. No fear mongering here; CBC offers a degree of protection by itself that is difficult to quantify. My job would be easier if we had a "line in the sand" that said hey keep 'er under 600 wtq and it's good to go. My findings and experiences show a bias but do not reflect that easy answer. Hence... if you want to retire the risk use both.

As to where I get my information, direct customer communication, the cars we work on in the shop, direct communication from vendor shops, etc. All real world experiences. If you want to compare your social media experiences to someone who actually works in the industry, then call that fear mongering, wonder what you'd call me saying "run just a CBC, it's FINE (mostly)" then having people spin their hubs.

Our position has been clear from the start. I don't see any further value in continuing this discussion. If anyone has legit questions, feel free to email me or PM me directly.

Chris

[Dippydo]

Originally Posted by MisterF80M3

I have 2 friends that work as service advisors at the largest BMW dealership in the Bay Area and he has only seen 1 slip out of the 5 years the car has been out. It was a highly modified track car.



No one is disputing the fact that there is SCH here.. We are talking about SCH with CBC, hence the title of this thread.



If it was so easy to find the post, why not just post it yourself?

You start the post saying "I don't know the exact detail." Sounds very credible....

So where are you hearing these story from? There has been no information on a SCH with CBC on this forum, FB group, or spool forums. You are the only person mentioning a SCH with CBC. Quite ironic that the only person that mentions a SCH with CBC is the manufactures that sells the part for a "complete fix" that is 6x the price. Fear monger more?

I know 8 people personally. Some were stock. Some were not. One was a friends 60 year old dad that babied it. Either your Bay Area dealer doesn’t service many m’s or they just don’t tell you the truth.

[MisterF80M3]

Originally Posted by E92inSG

Sorry misterf80, just as a very neutral bystander, what are you hoping to get out of this discussion? For VTT to confirm 100% that there have not been any spun hubs with CBC alone? It’s just starting to go round in circles here.

So let’s say there are no verified cases of spun hub with CBC, what do you gain from that as well?

If you wants VTT to guarantee that with the CBC only, your hub won’t spin, you know that’s not gonna happen right?

For what it’s worth I’m CBC- only.

Where did I even ask him to guarantee a CBC won't spin? I am trying to gather more information if I should get a CBC or spline lock installed since I am switching over to e85 soon.

I asked a general question in this thread if there has been any SCH with CBC. Tony replied bashing CBC not being a "complete solution," yet there is no concrete evidence he can provide. His only example sounds like he heard it from a friends friend.

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

I'm here to answer questions about products we offer, help people make good decisions. Not pander to those who have an agenda. No fear mongering here; CBC offers a degree of protection by itself that is difficult to quantify. My job would be easier if we had a "line in the sand" that said hey keep 'er under 600 wtq and it's good to go. My findings and experiences show a bias but do not reflect that easy answer. Hence... if you want to retire the risk use both.

As to where I get my information, direct customer communication, the cars we work on in the shop, direct communication from vendor shops, etc. All real world experiences. If you want to compare your social media experiences to someone who actually works in the industry, then call that fear mongering, wonder what you'd call me saying "run just a CBC, it's FINE (mostly)" then having people spin their hubs.

Our position has been clear from the start. I don't see any further value in continuing this discussion. If anyone has legit questions, feel free to email me or PM me directly.

Chris

Wait, didn't you guys advertise the spline lock to guarantee to not spin the hub though? I recall you said that it broke your test rig before it even spun the hub? Yet, we have numerous customers with a SCH with your spline lock.

I guess I will take the chance with installing a CBC since there are numerous people here testifying that they haven't spun their crank hub yet with a CBC installed.

Originally Posted by Dippydo

I know 8 people personally. Some were stock. Some were not. One was a friends 60 year old dad that babied it. Either your Bay Area dealer doesn’t service many m’s or they just don’t tell you the truth.

Actually, my friend works at the largest BMW dealership in the Bay Area. 1 or 8 is still a considerally small number of SCH considering the car has been out for 5 years+ with 50k+ vehicles in production. No one here is disputing the fact that SCH doesn't exist. I am just trying to figure out if CBC is actually a better solution than spline lock. From my thorough research, it seems that there are less failures (if any) with CBC than with spine lock.

[///BMW Junkie]

Originally Posted by MisterF80M3

Where did I even ask him to guarantee a CBC won't spin? I am trying to gather more information if I should get a CBC or spline lock installed since I am switching over to e85 soon.

I asked a general question in this thread if there has been any SCH with CBC. Tony replied bashing CBC not being a "complete solution," yet there is no concrete evidence he can provide. His only example sounds like he heard it from a friends friend.

Wait, didn't you guys advertise the spline lock to guarantee to not spin the hub though? I recall you said that it broke your test rig before it even spun the hub? Yet, we have numerous customers with a SCH with your spline lock.

I guess I will take the chance with installing a CBC since there are numerous people here testifying that they haven't spun their crank hub yet with a CBC installed.

Actually, my friend works at the largest BMW dealership in the Bay Area. 1 or 8 is still a considerally small number of SCH considering the car has been out for 5 years+ with 50k+ vehicles in production. No one here is disputing the fact that SCH doesn't exist. I am just trying to figure out if CBC is actually a better solution than spline lock. From my thorough research, it seems that there are less failures (if any) with CBC than with spine lock.

Good watch, English captions available. This shop only went with bolt capture.

[deeldoo]

Originally Posted by RoadRunner///M

+1. I only did CBC.

If your bolt has already stretched or backing out, then CBC probably isn't going to be enough. Apparently this is why Litchfield (https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/blo...ank-hub-issue/) do the scan test to assess the current state of the timing.

What is this scan test do you think? Is there really a way to tell if it has slipped even a little bit via scan?

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

A few points;

-This isn't Tony, it's Chris
-No one is bashing anything, least of all our own products. Merely stating the design intent.
-There have been zero reported incidents with the V2 spline lock used in conjunction with the CBC. The V2 has been out for over a year, with hundreds in the field. Stating anything to the contrary is simply spreading false information.
-The complete solution is to use the CBC with the spline lock. This retires the risk of everything except internet speculation. haha

Chris

[MadM2C]

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

A few points;

-This isn't Tony, it's Chris
-No one is bashing anything, least of all our own products. Merely stating the design intent.
-There have been zero reported incidents with the V2 spline lock used in conjunction with the CBC. The V2 has been out for over a year, with hundreds in the field. Stating anything to the contrary is simply spreading false information.
-The complete solution is to use the CBC with the spline lock. This retires the risk of everything except internet speculation. haha

Chris

I think the only thing a few of us are trying to point out here is that there are no specific examples of people spinning their crank hub while using a capture bolt. I haven’t seen any claims or any threads with regards to “I have a stock crank hub with CBC and the stock crank hub failed”

[deeldoo]

Originally Posted by RoadRunner///M

Readout of cam position relative to valves

Would most high end shops have something like this? Do you think there is anywhere to go pay for that readout?

[ILoveCugars]

A CBC is same as wire locking nuts, its just preventing the bolt from wanting to back out due to harmonics or whatever the cause reducing clamping force on hub. There are most likely cars out there living a happy life because CBC is prevent the bolt from backing off.

Regardless the crank hub is not positively driven by the crank ie. No splines, keys, pins. There will be XXX amount torque required to break the hold of the stock hub assembly and cause xxx amount of rotation inside the crank. Theres always that risk of exceeding the xxx amount of break away torque required to spin the hub which given the amount of spun hub cases out there is a level that's not that terribly hard to exceed with F80s.
There is a fair amount of ways to rapidly change rpm and excert a lot of load suddenly on the timing system. Whether intentionally, upping hp, kick down mode, or by accident miss shift, wheel hop during a pull etc. there is always going to be some level of risk to spin CBC or not.

[MisterF80M3]

Originally Posted by RoadRunner///M

+1. I only did CBC.

If your bolt has already stretched or backing out, then CBC probably isn't going to be enough. Apparently this is why Litchfield (https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/blo...ank-hub-issue/) do the scan test to assess the current state of the timing.

Wow. This website needs to be added to the main post. Very informative.

We have a developed a crank bolt capture plate, which differs from those already available on the market. If your car has shown no issues to date and is running fine, then this is a good first step. This is enough for many vehicles and we provide a 12 month warranty on the part.

Originally Posted by F82Vanja

Good watch, English captions available. This shop only went with bolt capture.

I just watched the whole video. They took a part the whole engine and still did not install a keyed crank hub. It goes to show if a keyed crank hub is even necessary or if vendors on this forum is blowing it out of proportion.

Originally Posted by murdrdf82

I know 6 F8x owners and every single one spun their hub. They're all tuned but still stock turbo.

Like I said above, no one here is arguing that SCH doesn't exist. We are trying to figure out if CBC is sufficient and so far data has showed there are less SCH (if any) with CBC than with a VTT spline lock.

Also, I know 10 F80/F82 owners and only 1 spun their hub but he was on E85. I have stage 2 BM3 with FBO with stock CH and no SCH. YMMV?

Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech

A few points;

-This isn't Tony, it's Chris
-No one is bashing anything, least of all our own products. Merely stating the design intent.
-There have been zero reported incidents with the V2 spline lock used in conjunction with the CBC. The V2 has been out for over a year, with hundreds in the field. Stating anything to the contrary is simply spreading false information.
-The complete solution is to use the CBC with the spline lock. This retires the risk of everything except internet speculation. haha

Chris

Unless there is concrete evidence and not "I don't know the exact details" about someone with a SCH with CBC, I refuse to believe a spline lock is even necessary.

Why are vendors who sell or install crank hub upgrades so adamant in telling the community how important a keyed crank hub or spline lock? $100 part + $500 in labor vs $700 part + $3000 in labor. Go figure..

Why would anyone have confidence in your product if you advertised your V1 as "broke the rig before slipping?" Yet, we have multiple cases of it slipping.

We created a testing rig using cut off the end of an N54 crank, and a hydraulic pump to simulate the crank spinning on the hub. We used this to see how easily we could slip a stock hub compared to our new design, after about 10-12 revisions we had one that broke the rig before slipping. We went with that design, and have since had it in our shop car without issue spinning high RPM, and making around 900WHP.

Originally Posted by MadM2C

I think the only thing a few of us are trying to point out here is that there are no specific examples of people spinning their crank hub while using a capture bolt. I haven’t seen any claims or any threads with regards to “I have a stock crank hub with CBC and the stock crank hub failed”

[Smee]

Then don't believe it... pay your money take the risk that acceptable to you.

[Chris@VargasTurboTech]

FWIW the V1 did break the rig. The problem we had with a small batch of V1 was material hardness -but you know this. Good design or not, with material that came in out of spec, it wouldn't have bitten into the snout. Old news, V2's are much more aggressive, very clear during installation that they're doing what is intended, have been out well over a year, hundreds in the street/track/strip, zero failures, including on 3 stock motor S55's in the 9's with our GC's.

Good start is CBC. Complete solution is CBC + Spline lock.

Chris