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07-06-2013, 07:09 AM | #155 |
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If you want a cross plane S65, look no further than the P65 racing engine. There might be a cross plane modular V8 out there somewhere, but not from the factory that I am aware of.
By the way, I am a huge fan of the modular V8 since my dad was one (of hundreds, sure) of engineers who helped test that engine. I have clear memories of him designing a windage tray for it in his shop (a proof of concept and suggestion he made that didn't end up being used, at least not at the time). I also remember riding in a Lincoln Continental test mule back around 1990 or so and him laying down patches of rubber. Sure it was just the original SOHC engine with about 200hp, but it was a thrilling experience nevertheless. I have high hopes for the next Mustang. If they get the Roadrunner engine up to 8000 RPM and 100hp/L in production form, it will become very hard to resist. And if they can manage to get a DCT on the options sheet, there may very well be one in my driveway. |
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07-06-2013, 08:45 AM | #156 | |
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Sorry but I don't agree. One of the few details that makes the P65 different compared to the S65 is the crank. How so the the S65 you claim to be very different compared to a Ferrari V8 is all of a sudden the same in P65 form? M3 V8 is more Ferrari like than a Maserati V8 which is a Ferrari engine but with crossplane crank compared to Ferrari's flat one. What makes the engines similar is their power delivery. No other NA engine delivers its power like an S65. |
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07-06-2013, 09:35 AM | #157 | |
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You could take any DOHC V8 engine. Flat plane or not. They all have overhead cams, multi valves, 90 deg V etc. You can get high flowing heads and high performance equipment for all of then. What sets them apart with regards to sound and characteristics is down to crank design. Just Google it. Don't take my word for it, do your own research. There is even a good thread on this board about the P65 and flat plane crank that offer more technical insight into the significant differences between the two crank designs. And there are loads of NA V8 engines that deliver power like the S65. It's not like BMW has discovered some magic or secret that no one knows about. The S65 is a great engine. But no matter what it's still a cross plane crank engine. There IS a reason the P65 isn't cross plane but flat plane! Just find the thread here about the P65 and it's crank design. Last edited by Boss330; 07-06-2013 at 09:44 AM.. |
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07-06-2013, 12:30 PM | #158 | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ne_of_the_Year Agree w/ another poster: it will go down as a classic and be a popular engine at classic car shows 20+ years from now when everything is hybridized or electric.
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07-06-2013, 04:33 PM | #159 |
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I get what he's saying at least with down low power; the E39 M5 made a good amount of power more under the curve than the E60 M5. BMW sacrificed a bit of low end to get killer top end on their last E series iterations....
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07-06-2013, 10:17 PM | #160 |
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killer top end and sound, dont forget the screaming V8/V10 sound.
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07-06-2013, 11:53 PM | #161 |
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07-07-2013, 01:08 AM | #162 | ||||
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I really expected a better reply. You're obviously astute on engines in general. However, it seems you want to rest your argument solely on crankshaft configuration. I don't disagree that is important but it is only roughly as important as power delivery - i.e. torque/power curve shapes and redline. Quote:
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Factory BMW S65 M3 Dyno
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07-07-2013, 04:47 AM | #163 |
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Lol at the s65 fanboi's.
The s54 is 20% smaller displacement, a generation older design, yet is only 9% down on torque and 18% down on power. If we look at s54 in CSL format we are only 14% down on power and 7.5% down on torque compared to s65. Yes the s65 is quite a special engine, but not the marvel of engineering claimed by the fans. Compared to the generation before, it is a bit of a let down in terms of specific output per litre. |
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07-07-2013, 04:56 AM | #164 | |
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S65 is not marvelous or some kind miracle engine compared to other S-engines. They are always been engineered well, remember S54 which has world power fullest six cylinder engine and engine delivers most highest torque per litre ratio, until Ferrari (430?) get title. Of course S14,S52,S70 and many others Last edited by Tĺst; 07-07-2013 at 05:02 AM.. |
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07-07-2013, 05:17 AM | #165 | |
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18,9% exactly
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It has often been discussed that already the Euro4 S54 had a slight performance drop compared to the Euro3 version .... and comparing official spec sheet numbers of power/torque might be questionable maybe? What are the typical dyno results of S54 and S65 cars? Do you see the same claimed differences? |
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07-07-2013, 07:28 AM | #166 | |
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LOL at the N54 fans. The engine is not a marvel of engineering calimed by fans. Toyota had such an engine even more advanced two decades ago. Nissan had turbocharged I6 engines long before BMW making alot more power from even smaller displacement with even higher redline. An the N54 was never really that new, just a turbocharged M54. By the way, contrary to what most think, S65 is more old, it is based on S60 that powered the M3 GTR. S65 is a pure Motorport engine, an engine that was developed by BMW Motorsport for racing only. Based on it was built the S65 for road. And based on S65 was derived, contrary to what most think eventhough it came before, the S85, an S65 with two more cylinders. |
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07-07-2013, 09:11 AM | #167 | |
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The s65 is also a bigger engine, and everyone knows it is easier to get higher specific power/litre from a bigger engine. Put two Honda K20 engines together in a 4litre V8 and it would wave bye-bye to an s65. K20 is even older engine technology, designed late 90's. |
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07-07-2013, 09:12 AM | #168 | |
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07-07-2013, 09:25 AM | #169 |
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07-07-2013, 09:41 AM | #170 | |
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Just to put you straight, IMO BMW has made at best mediocre Turbo engines. Back in the 2002 turbo or 80's F1 days different story maybe, but I don't rate any modern BMW Turbo engine, so can in no way be considered an n54 FAN. s63tu is OK, but not that special for a performance engine, and N54/N55 with a turbo not capable of flowing enough in the upper rev range is a disaster. Who needs full boost by 1,200rpm? The light at the end of the tunnel for the new M3/4, is if you rip the BMW turbo system off it, and turbo charge it properly it will be an amazing package. ...it all depends on whether the ECU can be cracked. BMW are making this more difficult. |
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07-07-2013, 09:48 AM | #171 | ||
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I get it - BTW. In a forum like this it can be a challenge to read through and see an over abundance of largely one-sided discussions. Sometimes we can feel an obligation to look out for the other side of the argument. But if you are hasty you can let emotions get the best if you and it ends up undermining what would otherwise be a fairly clean track record as a voice of reason. Because like most of the regular commenters on bimmerpost, you have a relatively good sense of reason, an apparently solid body of knowledge to draw from, and are a passionate enthusiast who wants to get his message across. A message that, in the end, I know you'd like to be credible so that it is taken seriously, rather than opinionated and error-laiden. |
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07-07-2013, 10:04 AM | #172 | |||
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Your superbike engine is a valid example. Good enough torque for a motorbike, but nowhere near enough for a car. You quite rightly point out good examples to disprove my theory, however, just because an engine is big in displacement, it doesn't mean it has been squeezed for maximum performance. To many, more displacement is enough. Mercedes have countered BMW's M3 offering by using a large displacement, but relatively lazy engine. Clearly this example does not support my argument. Quote:
Two BMW S1000RR engines would be great for a single seater racing car, but still not enough torque for a road going car, and why it helps to have bigger displacement in order to really focus on the high end torque. Quote:
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07-07-2013, 10:54 AM | #173 | |
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Sounds fair to me. You are then clearly not the turbo-"mass-guy" like most other 335i owner on here, you know what you are looking for. I prefer NA engines, but have nothing against FI engines, especially from Japan. I have nothing against FI engines, other then sound, but they have to be special and not like N54, thus my hope for M3 V6. You define H/R NA engines lazy, I define Euro-Turbo drivers lazy. Wanting to have max torque and smash the pedal from almost idle instead of shifting, and then run out of torque in the upper range, I call that laziness. |
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07-07-2013, 11:14 AM | #174 | |
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07-07-2013, 11:24 AM | #175 | ||
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Well it's a heck of a lot more unique, special and with enormously better power delivery. As you know specific output is great on paper and from an engineering/technical perspective but doesn't matter a bit in the real world (unless in racing or for countries with taxes on displacement.
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07-07-2013, 11:47 AM | #176 | |
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