Carbon Ceramic brakes

[ZGM3]

Originally Posted by F30form

So you are saying that because a dealer "looked the other way" when replacing your braking components, that all dealers should? IMHO, the dealer you are working with is screwing themselves. As are all other dealers who do the same.

Not trying to argue the point, and I DONT believe dealers are responsible to replace brake parts on tracked cars but how are the "dealers screwing themselves"? Aren't they getting paid by BMW NA for the parts and labor, they actually make money on it by passing the cost off to headquarters.

[aus]

Or buy the CCB's and change them out to steel rotors.
Then, when you sell the car, you can put them back on or sell the rotors separately.

[Swancoat]

Originally Posted by F30form

So you are saying that because a dealer "looked the other way" when replacing your braking components, that all dealers should? IMHO, the dealer you are working with is screwing themselves. As are all other dealers who do the same.

It was actually two separate dealers (I moved and found it more convenient to get the car serviced at a different dealer).

I must be one charming mofo!!

[CanAutM3]

A point that has not been brought up much is the possibility of fitting 18" wheels with the CCB. From a cost perceptive, there are much more good and reasonably priced r-comp available in 18" size compared to 19".

Gearhead999 mentioned that he was able to fit 18" wheels over his 380mm BBK. But with 400mm rotors, it might be more difficult to find 18" wheels that fit (note: I am not an expert in wheels)

Opting for CCB for track use could increase the cost/day if it forces one to switch to 19" r-comps. Just a point I believe is pertinent to the discussions .

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

A point that has not been brought up much is the possibility of fitting 18" wheels with the CCB. From a cost perceptive, there are much more good and reasonably priced r-comp available in 18" size compared to 19".

Gearhead999 mentioned that he was able to fit 18" wheels over his 380mm BBK. But with 400mm rotors, it might be more difficult to find 18" wheels that fit (note: I am not an expert in wheels)

Opting for CCB for track use could increase the cost/day if it forces one to switch to 19" r-comps. Just a point I believe is pertinent to the discussions .

its more about fitting over the calipers, not the rotors

but to your point, yes that would be a big concern, as would finding wider and appropriate track wheels in 19 inch sizes

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

A point that has not been brought up much is the possibility of fitting 18" wheels with the CCB. From a cost perceptive, there are much more good and reasonably priced r-comp available in 18" size compared to 19".

Gearhead999 mentioned that he was able to fit 18" wheels over his 380mm BBK. But with 400mm rotors, it might be more difficult to find 18" wheels that fit (note: I am not an expert in wheels)

Opting for CCB for track use could increase the cost/day if it forces one to switch to 19" r-comps. Just a point I believe is pertinent to the discussions .

I'm not an expert on wheel fitment relative to brake size either, but a few calculations to show the feasability of such a fitment:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...2&postcount=27

CCB: 400mm rotors (assuming Auto Bild fact sheet is correct)

18" wheel = 457,2mm diameter

With a 400mm rotor and a 18" wheel there is a 28,6mm difference from 18" (457,2mm) and the 400mm rotor (457,2-400/2=28,6mm).

The wheel isn't 457,2mm on the inside though as you have to subtract the thickness of the material (see illustration below):



Material thicknes will vary according to material and manufacturing processes, but a 5mm thickness would not be impossible.

So subtracting 5mm from 28,6mm leaves us with 23,6mm (the distance, or air, between the rotor and the inside of the wheel). And then you need some distance/air between the caliper and rim, which probably is at least 5-10mm. Ending up with a space of 13,6mm that the caliper can extend beyond the 400mm rotor.

So, as long as the caliper doesn't extend more than around 15mm above the rotor, there should be clearance with the right 18" wheel...

But I don't realistically think that the CCB calipers are protruding only 15mm beyond the 400mm rotors...

[Brosef]

No way in hell can you fit 18s with CCBs. Those calipers are monstrous - more so than the Brembo calipers I had with the 380 kit (and those only barely squeezed into a few 18s).

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

its more about fitting over the calipers, not the rotors

True, I was not specific, but that was implied (a bigger rotor pushes the caliper further outward)

[varsity]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

From a cost perceptive, there are much more good and reasonably priced r-comp available in 18" size compared to 19".

I agree that there are more tire options in 18" rather than 19", but I'd make a few comments:

- There are a lot more 19" choices now than there were just a few years ago.

- MPSS gives MPSC a run for the money in terms of dry grip, and has obviously superior wet grip, wear characteristics, and pricing.

- As more sports cars come from the factory with 19", tire options in that size will only increase.

The tire size discussion reminds me of when the E46 M3 was brand new, and a few guys ran out and put 17" SSR Comps on the car because that was the smallest - and lightest - wheel available at that time that fit over stock brakes. I'd be surprised to see anyone running a 17" SSRC on that car today, not because 17" is a bad size, but because the inevitably necessary BBK didn't fit over 17".

It's better to necessitate bigger wheels due to larger brakes rather than designers' whims. So I'm ok with needing 19s on M4.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by varsity

I agree that there are more tire options in 18" rather than 19", but I'd make a few comments:

- There are a lot more 19" choices now than there were just a few years ago.

- MPSS gives MPSC a run for the money in terms of dry grip, and has obviously superior wet grip, wear characteristics, and pricing.

- As more sports cars come from the factory with 19", tire options in that size will only increase.

The tire size discussion reminds me of when the E46 M3 was brand new, and a few guys ran out and put 17" SSR Comps on the car because that was the smallest - and lightest - wheel available at that time that fit over stock brakes. I'd be surprised to see anyone running a 17" SSRC on that car today, not because 17" is a bad size, but because the inevitably necessary BBK didn't fit over 17".

It's better to necessitate bigger wheels due to larger brakes rather than designers' whims. So I'm ok with needing 19s on M4.

It's also a question of budget. 18" r-comp tires are much cheaper than 19". So far, we have been discussing the value/business case for the CCB for track use, is the extra performance worth the extra cost? I just wanted to point out that CCBs will very likely also increase the cost of tires and that cost needs to be factored in the discussion. At 16-20 track days a season, it makes a difference for me. I wish I would, but I don't have an unlimited track budget .

If you can afford the CCB and the 19" tires, good for you. You will very likely have a performance edge

BTW, the PSS are a fantastic street tire and a very good wet track tire (that is what I use in both cases). But, for me, they are a worthless dry track tire, they melt and chunk away in no time when pushed just a little.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It's also a question of budget. 18" r-comp tires are much cheaper than 19". So far, we have been discussing the value/business case for the CCB for track use, is the extra performance worth the extra cost? I just wanted to point out that CCBs will very likely also increase the cost of tires and that cost needs to be factored in the discussion. At 16-20 track days a season, it makes a difference for me. I wish I would, but I don't have an unlimited track budget .

If you can afford the CCB and the 19" tires, good for you. You will very likely have a performance edge

BTW, the PSS are a fantastic street tire and a very good wet track tire (that is what I use in both cases). But, for me, they are a worthless dry track tire, they melt and chunk away in no time when pushed just a little.

completely agree. especially with the bolded based on personal on track experience. I have also melted and chunked PSS tires on track, they wear very quickly on the track IMO and are not on par with even extreme summer tires.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

At 16-20 track days a season, it makes a difference for me. I wish I would, but I don't have an unlimited track budget .

Agreed with this. I have actually thought about getting a modified NC Miata for this very reason.

Tracking new-ish German cars is $$

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Brosef

No way in hell can you fit 18s with CCBs. Those calipers are monstrous - more so than the Brembo calipers I had with the 380 kit (and those only barely squeezed into a few 18s).

Exactly. Absolutely no way. My 380 mm rotors with Brembo calipers in 19" RAC wheels have a "whisper" of a rub when under large loads... The rub is the head of the (purposefully low profile) socket head cap screw that attaches the caliper. This wasn't apparent until some significant track loads were put on the wheels. Despite that no noise street nor track. And of course I've inspected all inner wheel surfaces and made the judgement that the wheels are not compromised and are safe...

[varsity]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

melted and chunked PSS tires on track

That's completely the opposite of my experience. What cars were you driving?

I used MPSS on the track with a Cayman R, and they held up great at both AMP and RA in winter and summer. Most of my laps had a passenger as well. With two people and full tank of fuel, it was probably at 3350 or 3400. Not light. I think I got like 9k out of the rears before it was time to replace, maybe 1k of which was track miles.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by varsity

That's completely the opposite of my experience. What cars were you driving?

I used MPSS on the track with a Cayman R, and they held up great at both AMP and RA in winter and summer. Most of my laps had a passenger as well. With two people and full tank of fuel, it was probably at 3350 or 3400. Not light. I think I got like 9k out of the rears before it was time to replace, maybe 1k of which was track miles.

, but anyhow:

E92 M3 in my case; 3800lb with me on board. The PSS don't seem to tolerate heat too well. When driven at moderate pace with not too much slip angle, they do well. But as soon a you start pushing a bit a get more slip angle out of them, they overheat and become greasy; that's when they start to melt and chunk. In the wet you can push them pretty hard because the water keeps them cool.

[consolidated]

CCBs are becoming nearly commonplace, we should see more aftermarket options for replacement rotors like Surface Tranforms (http://www.surface-transforms.com/) and Movit (http://www.movitbrakes.com/en/) and prices going down. Porsche ST rotors are about 60% of OEM cost.

What's more interesting are companies resurfacing, adding weight to OEM specs. Not much real user feedback yet, but it's coming. If this is a real option, then the future of living with CCBs looks *somewhat* more financially reasonable.

http://www.carbonceramicbrake.com/re...t-service.html

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by consolidated

CCBs are becoming nearly commonplace, we should see more aftermarket options for replacement rotors like Surface Tranforms (http://www.surface-transforms.com/) and Movit (http://www.movitbrakes.com/en/) and prices going down. Porsche ST rotors are about 60% of OEM cost.

What's more interesting are companies resurfacing, adding weight to OEM specs. Not much real user feedback yet, but it's coming. If this is a real option, then the future of living with CCBs looks *somewhat* more financially reasonable.

http://www.carbonceramicbrake.com/re...t-service.html

Cool, that is great info. Did not know about either. Both the increasing aftermarket availability and the possibility to repair will bring costs down, perhaps OEM cost but certainly total cost of ownership.

[GotEM4]

The Ceramic Brakes are an option to an M4. Is anyone getting this option? What suggestion would you give, given the high cost of this option?

[Palmnuts]

I'm debating this too, but only because of the cost in comparison to the M3's price. I have ceramics on my M6 so, performance wise, I can confirm BMW hit the nail on the head first time with their ceramic set-up - quite simply, they are outstanding.

Not only are they really powerful, they're progressive and so easy to modulate. They're not too noisy (at worst, you get a bit of squeal when they're really wet, but even then it's not loud enough to hear inside the car with the windows shut) and there's absolutely no brake dust (well, none that sticks to the wheels anyway). They also have a long life - according to iDrive, even the pads will go 70k+ miles before needing replacement (although admittedly that's just regular driving, not track based).

[Sedan_Clan]

There are multiple threads on this. It's better to chime in there rather than start an entirely new thread (..for the 10th time ).

[Nex]

Originally Posted by emaguigad

The Ceramic Brakes are an option to an M4. Is anyone getting this option? What suggestion would you give, given the high cost of this option?

There are tons of threads on this. But from what I gather, the consensus(if there ever can be one) is:
1) get it if you like the looks of it, but don't expect increased braking performance. Most of the increased braking performance over the standard brakes is due to the increase in size. Carbon ceramics main advantage is weight savings.
2) don't get it if you plan to track the car.

For me, performance benefits certainly don't justify the added costs.

[CanAutM3]