6MT or DCT?

[Frank_NJ]

Amen!

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Can't disagree with you. We buy these cars for enjoyment and we should equip them in the manner that we find most enjoyable.

[s2k750]

In a few years only vettes and mustangs will be manual. This might be one of the last luxury sports cars with a man's transmission, wasn't even a choice in my book =0.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by s2k750

In a few years only vettes and mustangs will be manual. This might be one of the last luxury sports cars with a man's transmission, wasn't even a choice in my book =0.

A 6MT is a transmission for real men, You can't shift a "Man's Transmission" if you have small girly man hands and we all know (courtesy of Donald Trump) what small hands mean!

[suprajjang]

As I began my search for a M3/M4, I initially had my mind on the DCT. I have test driven 2 M4's with the DCT and I just loved how quick the shifts were and with me being in traffic the majority of my time in the DC/Nova area, I figured this was the transmission for me.
However, I had the chance to drive the 6spd manual for the first time yesterday and I couldn't believe how much more engaging the driving experience was as well as the shifts being smooth and this was by far the easiest manual transmission I have driven. The clutch pedal was not heavy and I left feeling very impressed and thinking it would be very manageable to drive in traffic.
Now I sit here confused which direction I want to go but one thing I know for sure is that I am not looking forward to driving the manual transmission in my Supra

[Sergm3]

Originally Posted by suprajjang

As I began my search for a M3/M4, I initially had my mind on the DCT. I have test driven 2 M4's with the DCT and I just loved how quick the shifts were and with me being in traffic the majority of my time in the DC/Nova area, I figured this was the transmission for me.
However, I had the chance to drive the 6spd manual for the first time yesterday and I couldn't believe how much more engaging the driving experience was as well as the shifts being smooth and this was by far the easiest manual transmission I have driven. The clutch pedal was not heavy and I left feeling very impressed and thinking it would be very manageable to drive in traffic.
Now I sit here confused which direction I want to go but one thing I know for sure is that I am not looking forward to driving the manual transmission in my Supra

6MT like you said it's much more rewarding experience then you drive. I have dct in my m5 and it's great transmission just never feel like I'm doing much then I drive. Plus then I push the car at racetracks you can't the car in park there's no option unless you shut the car off. After hard session I like to let the car idle and not press the brakes. Go with 6MT don't think about traffic or that it's not as fast as dct. The experience will be much more rewarding with 6MT.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by Sergm3

6MT like you said it's much more rewarding experience then you drive. I have dct in my m5 and it's great transmission just never feel like I'm doing much then I drive. Plus then I push the car at racetracks you can't the car in park there's no option unless you shut the car off. After hard session I like to let the car idle and not press the brakes. Go with 6MT don't think about traffic or that it's not as fast as dct. The experience will be much more rewarding with 6MT.

You can pull the e-brake and leave the car running with the DCT.

[SD ///M4]

I"ve been driving cars with manual transmissions for 50 years. I actually learned how to drive a manual on a tractor when I was 13.

I bought my M4 with the DCT and I love it! Prior to ordering my M4 I had an extensive back-to-back test drive with two identical M4s, one with the 6MT and one with a DCT. I liked the 6MT but I loved the DCT. Following that I spent two days with DCT-equipped M cars at the 2-day M School. I loved it even more.

After spending 15 days after my Euro Delivery driving through Germany, Austria, Italy, and Switzerland the first week, mostly on mountain roads and passes, and the second week at track days at Nurburgring, Circuit Park Zandvoort in The Netherlands, and Circuit Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium, I have absolutely no regrets! This also included hours on the Autobahns and Autostradas of all of those countries. I loved every moment driving with the DCT. I have ever more respect for it now. It's just so intelligent!

Anyone that says that you're "less involved" with the DCT has obviously never driven one under lots of different conditions, on and off the track, on twisty roads and long, flat stretches. I found myself switching between Drive mode and Sport mode, depending on whether the road was straight or twisty. I cruised on the Autobahn in D2 and when I came off the exit, I just grabbed the left paddle and I was in S2 and started downshifting, the same way I would if I were driving a manual. In fact, I usually drove the car as if it had a manual, shifting up and down with the paddles. On fast, two-lane, windy twisty mountain roads, I'd be in 5th or 4th and when I came to a curve I'd downshift through each gear to 3rd, drive through the curve, and start upshifting. We drove lots of roads with switchbacks, I'd downshift through the gears to 2nd, then back up through the gears. I found myself shifting more than I might have with a manual, because it was so easy and effortless to change gears, even in the middle of a curve. I never missed a shift or ground any gears. I never went into 2nd instead of 4th or 3rd instead of 5th. If I was in the wrong gear I could instantly correct my choice, up or down. It's just so logical!

If you come to a complete stop, you can take your foot off the brake and the car will just sit there until you start stepping on the gas, just like a manual, you just don't have to let out the clutch. Want to blip the throttle to further impress the people who are staring at your car while driving through a town, or if you just want to hear the sound in a tunnel? No problem, just push the gear selector to the left to put it in neutral, blip the throttle as much as you want, then push the gear selector to the right and you're back in gear, effortlessly. When you park the car, you come to a stop, pull up on the parking brake, and shut off the engine, the same as a manual, and it's automatically in Park. You need to stop and pick up your mail at the mailbox, or pick up a newspaper in your driveway before you pull into the garage, you do it the same as you would with a manual; you use the gear selector to put the car in Neutral and pull up on the parking brake. You can get out with the engine running, no need to turn it off to put it in Park.

The more you drive it like a manual, the more you realize it's more like a manual than an automatic, except that it always does everything perfectly. But if you're stuck in rush-hour traffic, no need to get a cramp in your left leg, just put it in Drive mode and relax. It'll shift itself, and this is when it's just like an automatic.

My wife and I shared the driving, including all the track days. She's a lot younger than me, but she's never owned an automatic. She loved the DCT as much as I did. She also drove it like it was a manual and thoroughly enjoyed it.

The best part for me is that I'm fortunate enough that if I really want to drive a manual, I can take my Z4 M Roadster, with it's superb S54 engine, the last, great, 3.2L naturally aspirated inline-6 engine that BMW made, and a true 2 seater, convertible sports car.

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

I"ve been driving cars with manual transmissions for 50 years. I actually learned how to drive a manual on a tractor when I was 13.

I bought my M4 with the DCT and I love it! Prior to ordering my M4 I had an extensive back-to-back test drive with two identical M4s, one with the 6MT and one with a DCT. I liked the 6MT but I loved the DCT. Following that I spent two days with DCT-equipped M cars at the 2-day M School. I loved it even more.

After spending 15 days after my Euro Delivery driving through Germany, Austria, Italy, and Switzerland the first week, mostly on mountain roads and passes, and the second week at track days at Nurburgring, Circuit Park Zandvoort in The Netherlands, and Circuit Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium, I have absolutely no regrets! This also included hours on the Autobahns and Autostradas of all of those countries. I loved every moment driving with the DCT. I have ever more respect for it now. It's just so intelligent!

Anyone that says that you're "less involved" with the DCT has obviously never driven one under lots of different conditions, on and off the track, on twisty roads and long, flat stretches. I found myself switching between Drive mode and Sport mode, depending on whether the road was straight or twisty. I cruised on the Autobahn in D2 and when I came off the exit, I just grabbed the left paddle and I was in S2 and started downshifting, the same way I would if I were driving a manual. In fact, I usually drove the car as if it had a manual, shifting up and down with the paddles. On fast, two-lane, windy twisty mountain roads, I'd be in 5th or 4th and when I came to a curve I'd downshift through each gear to 3rd, drive through the curve, and start upshifting. We drove lots of roads with switchbacks, I'd downshift through the gears to 2nd, then back up through the gears. I found myself shifting more than I might have with a manual, because it was so easy and effortless to change gears, even in the middle of a curve. I never missed a shift or ground any gears. I never went into 2nd instead of 4th or 3rd instead of 5th. If I was in the wrong gear I could instantly correct my choice, up or down. It's just so logical!

If you come to a complete stop, you can take your foot off the brake and the car will just sit there until you start stepping on the gas, just like a manual, you just don't have to let out the clutch. Want to blip the throttle to further impress the people who are staring at your car while driving through a town, or if you just want to hear the sound in a tunnel? No problem, just push the gear selector to the left to put it in neutral, blip the throttle as much as you want, then push the gear selector to the right and you're back in gear, effortlessly. When you park the car, you come to a stop, pull up on the parking brake, and shut off the engine, the same as a manual, and it's automatically in Park. You need to stop and pick up your mail at the mailbox, or pick up a newspaper in your driveway before you pull into the garage, you do it the same as you would with a manual; you use the gear selector to put the car in Neutral and pull up on the parking brake. You can get out with the engine running, no need to turn it off to put it in Park.

The more you drive it like a manual, the more you realize it's more like a manual than an automatic, except that it always does everything perfectly. But if you're stuck in rush-hour traffic, no need to get a cramp in your left leg, just put it in Drive mode and relax. It'll shift itself, and this is when it's just like an automatic.

My wife and I shared the driving, including all the track days. She's a lot younger than me, but she's never owned an automatic. She loved the DCT as much as I did. She also drove it like it was a manual and thoroughly enjoyed it.

The best part for me is that I'm fortunate enough that if I really want to drive a manual, I can take my Z4 M Roadster, with it's superb S54 engine, the last, great, 3.2L naturally aspirated inline-6 engine that BMW made, and a true 2 seater, convertible sports car.

I've been driving manuals only for 25 years so not experienced as you but nevertheless, I completely disagree that the DCT is "more like a manual than an automatic" and leave it at that.

If you've been driving manual for 50 years then you must be around your 70's at least. When I'm within a decade of this age, I don't think I'd enjoy driving a manual anymore so I'm not surprise of your preference towards the DCT.

But then in your last paragraph, you admit that you actually still have a manual Z4 M to quench the thirst. But for the rest of us who, out of choice or necessity, only have one car, then, at least while I still have my good senses, it shall continue be a manual as long as they continue to make them.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by F83

Wow 95 pages of what is quite obvious;

DCT car is a bit faster than 6MT (get over it people it just is)

6MT is a bit funner than the DCT (get over it people it just is)

Personally fun>small difference in speed so I have a 6MT

YMMV

This is pretty much the credited response. Where I differ slightly (by which I mean you're totally fucked in the head ), but just every so slightly, is the "6MT is more fun" part. I used to think that.

What changed my mind was when I forced myself to drive an M-DCT for 3 years. For the first 6 months I was an MT dick ... you know: "but but but MT means I'm badass "

But then an amazing thing happened ...

I started to get really REALLY good at the M-DCT ... When driven in anger (which I do every week) the mechanics of all it faded into the background and the experience became the sounds, the feel, and ... the speed. I was faster. WAY faster.

And I'm not just talking about the bullshit .000001s 0-60. I mean over an entire run, over and over again, I was WAY faster. Like a level up from where I'd been.

Then I got a F83. Now I'd be lying if I said I didn't anguish over checking that box a second time, but I checked it. And just like with the first time, when I first drove the F8x I was really baffled by the M-DCT. I didn't like it. I regretted my choice.

But this time, that wore off after an hour or so of driving it. And I also realized that the F8x M-DCT does even crazier shit than it's predecessor. Shit that you could never NEVER do with an MT. Shit that's totally completely addicting. Full throttle 2nd-3rd and 3rd-4th pulls at redline? OMGWTAF?? If BMW says whatever the fuck is going on there is ok, then ... I guess I'm going with their advice.

So is an MT funner?

Not for me anymore because honestly I bought this car to drive fast - by which I mean match or beat people on a road course over many runs over a span of hours - and with the M-DCT I'm faster, WAY faster.

And ultimately faster is more fun, so I have an M-DCT.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

This is pretty much the credited response. Where I differ slightly (by which I mean you're totally fucked in the head ), but just every so slightly, is the "6MT is more fun" part. I used to think that.

What changed my mind was when I forced myself to drive an M-DCT for 3 years. For the first 6 months I was an MT dick ... you know: "but but but MT means I'm badass "

But then an amazing thing happened ...

I started to get really REALLY good at the M-DCT ... When driven in anger (which I do every week) the mechanics of all it faded into the background and the experience became the sounds, the feel, and ... the speed. I was faster. WAY faster.

And I'm not just talking about the bullshit .000001s 0-60. I mean over an entire run, over and over again, I was WAY faster. Like a level up from where I'd been.

Then I got a F83. Now I'd be lying if I said I didn't anguish over checking that box a second time, but I checked it. And just like with the first time, when I first drove the F8x I was really baffled by the M-DCT. I didn't like it. I regretted my choice.

But this time, that wore off after an hour or so of driving it. And I also realized that the F8x M-DCT does even crazier shit than it's predecessor. Shit that you could never NEVER do with an MT. Shit that's totally completely addicting. Full throttle 2nd-3rd and 3rd-4th pulls at redline? OMGWTAF?? If BMW says whatever the fuck is going on there is ok, then ... I guess I'm going with their advice.

So is an MT funner?

Not for me anymore because honestly I bought this car to drive fast - by which I mean match or beat people on a road course over many runs over a span of hours - and with the M-DCT I'm faster, WAY faster.

And ultimately faster is more fun, so I have an M-DCT.

I agree with this totally.

Almost all of my previous cars were manuals, with my last car being a 6MT M4. I was a HUGE manual guy. But I've always loved driving a DCT equipped car (GT-R, Porsche PDK...etc) and respected them for their performance superiority.

Well, now that I've owned a DCT car for awhile (ZCP) I can honestly say that I will likely never go back to a manual in a car like this. There are times I miss the direct engagement of a manual, but I like how fast I am in the DCT and that is more fun to me. The DCT has so many advantages over any other transmission available that I couldn't walk away from it in lieu of a manual. A 1st-2nd-3rd-4th gear pull with your ass all over the place is insanely fun and something you could never do in a manual, I don't care how good of a driver you are or how fast you think you can shift.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

I agree with this totally.

Almost all of my previous cars were manuals, with my last car being a 6MT M4. I was a HUGE manual guy. But I've always loved driving a DCT equipped car (GT-R, Porsche PDK...etc) and respected them for their performance superiority.

Well, now that I've owned a DCT car for awhile (ZCP) I can honestly say that I will likely never go back to a manual in a car like this. There are times I miss the direct engagement of a manual, but I like how fast I am in the DCT and that is more fun to me. The DCT has so many advantages over any other transmission available that I couldn't walk away from it in lieu of a manual. A 1st-2nd-3rd-4th gear pull with your ass all over the place is insanely fun and something you could never do in a manual, I don't care how good of a driver you are or how fast you think you can shift.

I test drove a DCT 4 times before ticking the "manual" box. Loved the DCT, just couldn't do it. But then I'm one of those MT driving assholes who listens to the exhaust note as a car takes off down the road, and I look down my nose at anything without that classic MT gear change delay.

[Bluex]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

This is pretty much the credited response. Where I differ slightly (by which I mean you're totally fucked in the head ), but just every so slightly, is the "6MT is more fun" part. I used to think that.

What changed my mind was when I forced myself to drive an M-DCT for 3 years. For the first 6 months I was an MT dick ... you know: "but but but MT means I'm badass "

But then an amazing thing happened ...

I started to get really REALLY good at the M-DCT ... When driven in anger (which I do every week) the mechanics of all it faded into the background and the experience became the sounds, the feel, and ... the speed. I was faster. WAY faster.

And I'm not just talking about the bullshit .000001s 0-60. I mean over an entire run, over and over again, I was WAY faster. Like a level up from where I'd been.

Then I got a F83. Now I'd be lying if I said I didn't anguish over checking that box a second time, but I checked it. And just like with the first time, when I first drove the F8x I was really baffled by the M-DCT. I didn't like it. I regretted my choice.

But this time, that wore off after an hour or so of driving it. And I also realized that the F8x M-DCT does even crazier shit than it's predecessor. Shit that you could never NEVER do with an MT. Shit that's totally completely addicting. Full throttle 2nd-3rd and 3rd-4th pulls at redline? OMGWTAF?? If BMW says whatever the fuck is going on there is ok, then ... I guess I'm going with their advice.

So is an MT funner?

Not for me anymore because honestly I bought this car to drive fast - by which I mean match or beat people on a road course over many runs over a span of hours - and with the M-DCT I'm faster, WAY faster.

And ultimately faster is more fun, so I have an M-DCT.

Yup. It's so smooth. Catholic school girl ass smoooooth.

Those shifts are fast and buttah.....I never get bored of them.

But I admit, I instinctively use the actual shifter as opposed to the paddles. Old habits die hard.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Bluex

Yup. It's so smooth. Catholic school girl ass smoooooth.

Those shifts are fast and buttah.....I never get bored of them.

But I admit, I instinctively use the actual shifter as opposed to the paddles. Old habits die hard.

Me too, and I only shift manually. In a sports car I don't think I'll ever be able to let the car shift, that's just too weird. it's also why I could do the tesla.

[GrussGott]

Interesting article in Bloomberg on MTs ... basically enjoy them while you can and you're not getting an MT in anything upmarket from a Bimmer, except for Aston.

SUMMARY: "The days of true supercars bearing stick shifts are long gone—and not to return. If you do find yourself still yearning for the James Dean romance of pressing the clutch, throwing the car forward a gear, and zooming around the bend, you’ll have to look a little down market"

For the lazy:

John Paolo Canton, spokesman for McLaren in North America.
“These days, people are educated to the fact that it’s faster to drive with paddle shifters or the DSG gearbox, especially people who have been buying sports cars for a long time” “The quantitative argument for a stick shift is not even a conversation at this point, in terms of the numbers, it’s just so much faster, it’s not even close.”
McLaren has never offered a stick shift in any of its cars since debuting the first road version in 2010.

Nicola Boari, the head of product marketing at Ferrari
“The only people who ask for manual gearboxes are two or three diehard British car journalists. We develop our cars to have class-leading levels of performance, grip, and handling. For the technological level of integration our cars offer, a manual gearbox would reduce the performance capabilities—which, for Ferrari, is unacceptable.”
Ferrari stopped selling sticks in 2011. Would you ever bring the manual back as either a one-off or a production car? I asked Ferrari’s Boari.
His answer says it all: “Categorically, no.”

Matthew Clarke, Aston Martin communications manager
“It’s analogue in a digital world”
Aston offers several of its Vantage V12 and V8s in manual option form.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Interesting article in Bloomberg on MTs ... basically enjoy them while you can and you're not getting an MT in anything upmarket from a Bimmer, except for Aston.

SUMMARY: "The days of true supercars bearing stick shifts are long gone—and not to return. If you do find yourself still yearning for the James Dean romance of pressing the clutch, throwing the car forward a gear, and zooming around the bend, you’ll have to look a little down market"

For the lazy:

Yeah. Just like CDs were better than vinyl. For the manufacturers it's all about numbers and bragging rights.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Interesting article in Bloomberg on MTs ... basically enjoy them while you can and you're not getting an MT in anything upmarket from a Bimmer, except for Aston.

SUMMARY: "The days of true supercars bearing stick shifts are long gone—and not to return. If you do find yourself still yearning for the James Dean romance of pressing the clutch, throwing the car forward a gear, and zooming around the bend, you’ll have to look a little down market"

For the lazy:

No question if it's strictly numbers there is no case for the manual. But many enthusiasts realize using more of your own control over the operation of your car is much more rewarding. Unless you are racing or dealing with stop and go traffic I don't see a compelling case for the DCT. More expensive, complex and heavier. Will prevent "money shifts", but that shouldn't happen on the street. DCT is the first step to autonomous cars. 😥

[shahano]

As some of you know, after waiting my car for 3 months, the dealer made a mistake and my car arrived with a manual. I was left with a choice, to either take the manual, or wait another 2-3 months while I get the same exact car with a DCT.
I decided to wait yet another 3 months for the DCT for the following reasons. I have been driving the DCT lately, and I just couldnt get over how much fun I was having on the mountain roads. Also, the car will be my daily driver which will be driven in stop and go traffic for 1 hour each day in heavy traffic.

Finally, I have never driven the manual M4, and decided to go give it a try when it arrives at the dealership tomorrow.

One thing I forgot is that here in leb, there is zero M4s that are manual as there is absolutely no market for it. A friend of mine tried to sell his E92 M3 which was manual and was only able to sell it through a huge discount.

The only thing that would incline me to a manual is the possibility to do clutch kicks while entering corners, and the possibility to easily install a hydraulic handbrake which cannot be done with a DCT transmission

[Devilzmantis]

Originally Posted by shahano

As some of you know, after waiting my car for 3 months, the dealer made a mistake and my car arrived with a manual. I was left with a choice, to either take the manual, or wait another 2-3 months while I get the same exact car with a DCT.
I decided to wait yet another 3 months for the DCT for the following reasons. I have been driving the DCT lately, and I just couldnt get over how much fun I was having on the mountain roads. Also, the car will be my daily driver which will be driven in stop and go traffic for 1 hour each day in heavy traffic.

Finally, I have never driven the manual M4, and decided to go give it a try when it arrives at the dealership tomorrow.

One thing I forgot is that here in leb, there is zero M4s that are manual as there is absolutely no market for it. A friend of mine tried to sell his E92 M3 which was manual and was only able to sell it through a huge discount.

The only thing that would incline me to a manual is the possibility to do clutch kicks while entering corners, and the possibility to easily install a hydraulic handbrake which cannot be done with a DCT transmission

In the States, Manuals hold its value. The E92 Manuals are always sold quick.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by shahano

I have been driving the DCT lately, and I just couldnt get over how much fun I was having on the mountain roads.

Originally Posted by Devilzmantis

In the States, Manuals hold its value. The E92 Manuals are always sold quick.

The mountain roads are where the DCT really shines - if you do that a lot then I'd definitely recommend the DCT. I don't mind the stop/go traffic with an MT (and I 100% manually shift the dct) so if I did less mountain driving I'd probably get the MT. When I'm in Europe I usually rent an MT just because I enjoy daily driving (under 40MPH) more with an MT.

In the states, an MT is considered more sporty so the value stays high, but I've noticed that most other countries view it as slow/old/grandma's transmission so I'm not surprised to hear it's hard to sell.

Of course then Europeans don't understand why Americans buy M-cars either

[brandonm3]

I'm finally picking up my Azurite F80 M3 6MT this Thursday at the Performance Center!! I was initially debating on the DCT vs 6MT - I asked my fiancee what she thought and she said we needed a manual car in the house because it's fun to drive--- SOLD!!

[Uapilot7]

Old school manual.......YUK!

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by dinonz

This is not intended to cause an argument or finger-pointing - it's merely a point of interest as to how many people love the DCT/Automatic options now present in cars (lets face it, if you couldn't drive manual you couldn't drive a Ferrari 20 years ago) because it now allows them to drive cars in this range and higher?

I included/said Automatic because some vehicles (Aston Martin etc) are still automatics in some of their vehicles. It was not meant as any slight on the DCT drivers.

I can drive an automatic. I can heel and toe while threshold braking in a car with straight cut dog gears with no synchromesh that has to be double clutched.

My M4 is a DCT.