6MT or DCT?

[Sassicaia]

I can drive manual and love it. Without manual driving would be a chore rather then an enjoyment to me. The main reason I purchased the F80 is because I think it's highly probable it will be one of the last great manuals BMW makes, and maybe even one of the last great manuals anyone does. Bold statement I know, but it's sad times for manual lovers. I'll keep this M3 until it turns to dust, and if another great manual version makes its way out I'd probably take the plunge. Seems to be a dying art.

[hlothery]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

At the end of the day, this is a stupid argument. Everyone gets what they like, and one is not better than the other. I guess my point was that someone who has never driven a stick should try it before judging it and labeling it as a "chore."

Agree completely. However, having driven nothing but MT for most of my life, I also agree that MT is a chore in traffic. Flicking through the Texas Hill Country with my DCT shifting to the proper gear almost before I think about it is a true joy to experience, and a mechanical marvel, IMHO. I feel no less engaged than I did in my MT cars in the past, but I do feel more capable, if you will. Not saying I'm incapable, but who hasn't occasionally missed an optimum shift point? Anyway, a fun discussion to read.

[Nicky_do_it]

Originally Posted by jbockrd

Way too gaudy in the all CF trim. I would take the MT anyday despite the CF look. I do like the idrive dial better in the DCT pic

Just picked up a ZCP M3 with manual. I had an S4 previously with DSG. Great shifts but I got bored of it. Could have been the car. However, i test drove an M3 with dct and didn't feel it was as fun as the manual. I also think the manual complements the exhaust sound in the zcp well.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by NJ-M4

Not sure why so many view the DCT as an automatic. When driven with paddle shifters (the only way I drive) it's very much a manual.

Because you only need the throttle and brake to drive it. Sure, you can put it in paddles mode, but it's not necessary. It's an automatic transmission. As for paddles mode, it is nothing like driving a real manual. Why do you think so many guys on Rennlist have reported being bored with the 991 GT3 and are either praying for a 991.2 manual GT3 or have sold their GT3s to get a GT4? To say paddles mode is "very much a manual" is an enormous stretch. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it makes you happy. But the experiences of a DCT/PDK automatic versus a proper 6MT are completely different.

[Brasko]

Long live the 6MT!

[9SECDD]

Originally Posted by kepler

Because you only need the throttle and brake to drive it. Sure, you can put it in paddles mode, but it's not necessary. It's an automatic transmission. As for paddles mode, it is nothing like driving a real manual. Why do you think so many guys on Rennlist have reported being bored with the 991 GT3 and are either praying for a 991.2 manual GT3 or have sold their GT3s to get a GT4? To say paddles mode is "very much a manual" is an enormous stretch. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it makes you happy. But the experiences of a DCT/PDK automatic versus a proper 6MT are completely different.

Not a stretch at all. It's a manual transmission without a torque converter that can be driven in automatic mode when desired. Sure the method of manually shifting is different, but it's still much more a manual than an automatic when in manual mode.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by NJ-M4

Not a stretch at all. It's a manual transmission without a torque converter that can be driven in automatic mode when desired. Sure the method of manually shifting is different, but it's still much more a manual than an automatic when in manual mode.

It is a stretch. True manual requires the coordination of 2 feet and 1 hand to effect a smooth gear change. "Manual DCT" requires the co-ordination of 1 finger.

It's a massive stretch.

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by golovko

I also might be the only person who thinks a manual in traffic is better than an automatic because it gives you something else to do to pass the time.

I've driven manual in heavy Los Angeles traffic for decades and I totally agree. I find that it can be more of a PITA to move my right foot back and forth btw gas and brake in an automatic vs just edging along in 1st gear and using the clutch in a manual. Also, when I'm tired, manual keeps me engaged and less likely to doze off vs automatic.

Despite often dealing with heavy traffic frequently, I can't remember the last time I wished I was driving an automatic.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by NJ-M4

Not a stretch at all. It's (a m)an(ual transmission without a torque converter that can be driven in) automatic (when desired). Sure the method of manually shifting is different, but it's still much more a manual than an automatic when in manual mode.

Fixed

In all seriousness, its not a manual. You can control when you tell the car to shift the gears with your fingers like you have been able to in other automatic transmissions for 15 years now, albeit in a much quicker and streamlined fashion, but you're not actually physically changing the gears. . . You do not actually change the gears the car does.

Manual means there is a mechanical process being implemented by your body's interaction with the car, automatic means that the car shifts when you tell it to either by letting off the gas, clicking on a button, or following any of its many bagillion routine computer processes. The bottom line is that the car is physically changing the gear, not you, hence it is an automatic process.

[Jim B]

Originally Posted by Brasko

Long live the 6MT!

+1

[KevinGS]

I've had 3 manuals, and I'm so happy to have my M4 in DCT. There are many times when I simply don't feel like pushing in a clutch.

The DCT is magnificent on a track or in the mountains...with seamless, almost-instantaneous shifts. I have a blast. There's never a moment I wish I had a manual.

This argument we're having is silly, because the beauty is that BMW gives us a choice.

If the manual jockeys find it "more engaging" for them, that's fine by me. Glad you like it.

The DCT is more than engaging enough for me...and when I want to disengage from it all, put the car in efficient mode, and just dawdle along in traffic, it can do that too.

For all of you that want to be fully engaged, every moment in the car, BMW made the manual for you. Glad you got what you wanted. I know I did.

[brianeck]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

I've had 3 manuals, and I'm so happy to have my M4 in DCT. There are many times when I simply don't feel like pushing in a clutch.

The DCT is magnificent on a track or in the mountains...with seamless, almost-instantaneous shifts. I have a blast. There's never a moment I wish I had a manual.

This argument we're having is silly, because the beauty is that BMW gives us a choice.

If the manual jockeys find it "more engaging" for them, that's fine by me. Glad you like it.

The DCT is more than engaging enough for me...and when I want to disengage from it all, put the car in efficient mode, and just dawdle along in traffic, it can do that too.

For all of you that want to be fully engaged, every moment in the car, BMW made the manual for you. Glad you got what you wanted. I know I did.

It's all in good fun for the most part. It's like fighting over which color is the best. . .

Personally I don't care which color is the best because everyone knows Sakhir Orange is .2 seconds faster in the quarter mile.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by brianeck

Fixed

In all seriousness, its not a manual. You can control when you tell the car to shift the gears with your fingers like you have been able to in other automatic transmissions for 15 years now, albeit in a much quicker and streamlined fashion, but you're not actually physically changing the gears. . . You do not actually change the gears the car does.

Manual means there is a mechanical process being implemented by your body's interaction with the car, automatic means that the car shifts when you tell it to either by letting off the gas, clicking on a button, or following any of its many bagillion routine computer processes. The bottom line is that the car is physically changing the gear, not you, hence it is an automatic process.

What is automation?

Automation can be mechanical too. When you shift gears in you "manual" transmission, there is a mechanical device that "automatically" matches the speed of the cogs. There is a damper that controls how fast the clutch clamps down regardless how fast you release the clutch pedal. You are not entirely shifting by yourself, are you?

Add auto rev match, and you are doing even less yourself.

On race car or motorcycle sequential gearbox, when you pull/push the shift lever, there is a rotating cylinder that moves the forks and dogs to select the appropriate gear. Further, on those transmissions, shifts can be done without disengaging the clutch. There is "automation" going on here too.

Have electrical/hydraulic servos move the forks and dogs instead. Is it that different?

I'll be the first to say DCT can be considered an "automatic", but my point is that the line between "manual" and "automatic" is getting fuzzier as technology evolves. The 6MT on the F8X is a far cry from the straight cut gear non-sychronized Formula-Ford I drove when getting my racing license over two decades ago.

[SROC3]

I love my M4 6MT. My next car will be an R8 Spyder when my lease is up. But I'm still going 100% 6MT........Unless I get the V10. Then Maaaaaaybe Dual Clutch again. Hard Maybe.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

What is automation?

Automation can be mechanical too. When you shift gears in you "manual" transmission, there is a mechanical device that "automatically" matches the speed of the cogs. You are not entirely shifting by yourself.

But really - on a scale of things, you have Auto, then DCT, then a few feet over you have 6MT.

I do not know why DCT drivers have to pretend it's manual in "manual" mode.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

But really - on a scale of things, you have Auto, then DCT, then a few feet over you have 6MT.

I do not know why DCT drivers have to pretend it's manual in "manual" mode.

I got interrupted while I was writing and pressed "Post" before I had finished. Re-read my post now, it might make a little more sense .

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I got interrupted while I was writing and pressed "Post" before I had finished. Re-read my post now, it might make a little more sense .

Not really no.

I learned in a '69 Mini Thou'. To change gears I had to press the clutch, move the gear lever, and release the clutch. Strangely, I do exactly the same in my M3 today, even though I am sure the internals are different.

I had a Lexus for a while too. Was automatic, with paddles. Strangely, the DCT is pretty much exactly the same even though I am sure the internals are different.

Yes - the distinction between Automatic and DCT is very fuzzy, but once again I think you're stretching it a long way (I'm thinking mega-wedgie here) to try to say that manuals and automatics are much the same these days.

Honestly - who are you trying to convince? I will never change my view, so really, you can only be trying to convince yourself...

[dinonz]

Here's my honest take on it - the DCT is the better gearbox, in the same way the CD was better than vinyl. Higher tech, better performing, no noises and pops and crackles. No messing with needles and having to clean the records etc.

But purists still preferred the vinyl. For them, the pops and crackles are part of it. Cleaning the needle and wiping down the vinyl before playing them is part of the whole experience, and not to be missed.

I think 6MT drivers are the same. They're not interested in "perfection". They like the kooky old ways. That feeling when you hook the perfect gear change is amazing - it's like suddenly your poo is pure white and has no odor at all - at least, for that brief moment. I love the feeling of heel and toeing into a corner and getting every blip just right. Doesn't happen all that often, but it's such a great feeling when it does. It's part of what makes driving fun for me.

But I fear on here we have 3 very different types of people:

1. Those who accept that DCT is "automatic" despite the paddles - they embrace it, love it, and couldn't give a shit.

2. Those who love the DCT but are agonized by their shift from manual, hence the need to claim it's "manual" and get all defensive over it.

3. Annoying pricks like me who get really irritated by #2

I drove the DCT 4 times before ordering a manual. Loved the DCT - it is simply brilliant, but I guess I like the imperfections of driving a 6MT - even if the most imperfect part of the whole system is me.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Here's my honest take on it - the DCT is the better gearbox, in the same way the CD was better than vinyl. Higher tech, better performing, no noises and pops and crackles. No messing with needles and having to clean the records etc.

But purists still preferred the vinyl. For them, the pops and crackles are part of it. Cleaning the needle and wiping down the vinyl before playing them is part of the whole experience, and not to be missed.

I love music, I sample music, and I'm fine sampling music from an mp3 or CD, don't need all the crackles and pops.

The experience is the finished product for me, not the process nor the crackles and pops.

I think 6MT drivers are the same. They're not interested in "perfection". They like the kooky old ways. That feeling when you hook the perfect gear change is amazing - it's like suddenly your poo is pure white and has no odor at all - at least, for that brief moment. I love the feeling of heel and toeing into a corner and getting every blip just right. Doesn't happen all that often, but it's such a great feeling when it does. It's part of what makes driving fun for me.

Been there, done that. It's a great feeling, but not great enough to ignore a gear box like the DCT that is so much fun, so much quicker, and so flexible (can shift by itself when I don't want to).

If I get a Miata, I'll get a manual. In this M4, the DCT is perfect....for me.

But I fear on here we have 3 very different types of people:

1. Those who accept that DCT is "automatic" despite the paddles - they embrace it, love it, and couldn't give a shit.

Doesn't matter what we call it, it just matters that the DCT works, and works well...and gives me the option of shifting all by itself when I want it to (which is a lot of the time).

2. Those who love the DCT but are agonized by their shift from manual, hence the need to claim it's "manual" and get all defensive over it.

No agony for me. And again, it doesn't matter what we call it, or how we label it, it's the experience to the driver that matters. Arguing over labels is silly.

3. Annoying pricks like me who get really irritated by #2

Yes, if you're annoyed by the label, that's your issue. Not ours. LOL

Back to music, when I see a DJ catch wreck on pure vinyl, I'm WAYYYY more impressed than seeing a DJ using Serato or a CD mixer with buttons.

But that doesn't mean that the person spinning CDs or using Serato with mp3's is having less fun, even though it may take less skill. And in the end, I'm sure sometimes that old school DJ using vinyl would love to walk into a club with a simple laptop, a mixer and some headphones, as opposed to carrying 10 crates of vinyl.

So most of them, they've converted to the latest mixers and computer programs. They conformed, but we still respect their craft.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

I love music, I sample music, and I'm fine sampling music from an mp3 or CD, don't need all the crackles and pops.

The experience is the finished product for me, not the process nor the crackles and pops.

Then you're not the purist I spoke of. You may be "into music" but you're not the purist I spoke of.

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Been there, done that. It's a great feeling, but not great enough to ignore a gear box like the DCT that is so much fun, so much quicker, and so flexible (can shift by itself when I don't want to).

If I get a Miata, I'll get a manual. In this M4, the DCT is perfect....for me.

Can you tell me why? Is it a power issue? That at a certain point you prefer a DCT over a manual? Just curious.

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Doesn't matter what we call it, it just matters that the DCT works, and works well...and gives me the option of shifting all by itself when I want it to (which is a lot of the time).

I drove in peak traffic today. Never once did I think "I wish I didn't have to change gears".

Originally Posted by KevinGS

No agony for me. And again, it doesn't matter what we call it, or how we label it, it's the experience to the driver that matters. Arguing over labels is silly.

Yes - you're right. Arguing that a DCT is "almost the same as a manual" is the silliest thing I have heard in many years. So stop it

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Yes, if you're annoyed by the label, that's your issue. Not ours. LOL

No - I'm annoyed by the silliness of people who cannot just accept that they drive a very fucking good version of an automatic and be done with it. You should check out the "Fake Labels and Badges" thread - putting an M3 badge on a 328i is the same as calling a DCT a "manual". You're just a wanna-be.

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Back to music, when I see a DJ catch wreck on pure vinyl, I'm WAYYYY more impressed than seeing a DJ using Serato or a CD mixer with buttons.

But that doesn't mean that the person spinning CDs or using Serato with mp3's is having less fun, even though it may take less skill. And in the end, I'm sure sometimes that old school DJ using vinyl would love to walk into a club with a simple laptop, a mixer and some headphones, as opposed to carrying 10 crates of vinyl.

So most of them, they've converted to the latest mixers and computer programs. They conformed, but we still respect their craft.

Interesting - most DCT drivers here who have a issue with it like to quote how we're old fashioned (I've been called a "caveman" etc.) because they're extremely sensitive about their choice.

Nobody said anything about anyone else's enjoyment of the DCT or having less fun. My issue is with the DCT drivers who insist it's "the same as a manual". Just accept it's not, enjoy it, revel in your technical superiority over us manual drivers, and move on at 0.2 seconds faster to 60.

When it comes to skill however, suffice to say I will just leave that alone. No doubt there's a skill to using DCT well too (perhaps learning to pre-empt things etc.) however there's no comparing the skill level to the 6MT.

So whatever you prefer, enjoy it and try not to call it what it's not. Don't try to put a Porsche badge on a Beetle.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

But really - on a scale of things, you have Auto, then DCT, then a few feet over you have 6MT.

From a driving complexity perspective, I'd say the F8X's 6MT is much closer to the DCT than the straight cut gear non-synchronized MT in the Formula-Ford .

Originally Posted by dinonz

Honestly - who are you trying to convince? I will never change my view, so really, you can only be trying to convince yourself...

I am not trying to convince anyone. Not even myself since I am already quite convinced about my own point of view. You are the one who replied to my post BTW...

What I am trying to offer are counterpoints to ponder. Things aren't black or white.

Originally Posted by dinonz

I learned in a '69 Mini Thou'. ...in my M3 today, even though I am sure the internals are different.

No, not that different actually. Traditional manuals are indeed "old tech" .

Originally Posted by dinonz

Not really no.

I learned in a '69 Mini Thou'. To change gears I had to press the clutch, move the gear lever, and release the clutch. Strangely, I do exactly the same in my M3 today

I had a Lexus for a while too. Was automatic, with paddles. Strangely, the DCT is pretty much exactly the same even though I am sure the internals are different.

Yes - the distinction between Automatic and DCT is very fuzzy, but once again I think you're stretching it a long way (I'm thinking mega-wedgie here) to try to say that manuals and automatics are much the same these days.

Your point of view is focused on the driver interface with the commands. Mine is focused on the connection between driver and result.

The reason I picked manual transmissions on all my previous cars before my first DCT is quite simple: it was the better performance option. Period. Torque converter automatics were slower. Not only acceleration wise, but mostly response wise. There was that inherent disconnection between your right foot and the power delivered to the drive wheels from the slush-box. With a manual transmission, the driver could control exactly how the power was delivered to the rear wheels and it offered better acceleration to boot. That is what made them "more engaging" to me. The DCT offers exactly that. Plus it offers even better acceleration and it can do things that are simply not possible with a traditional manual such as shifting gears mid-corner without upsetting the balance of the car or keeping both hands on the steering wheel at all times. That gives it an additional performance edge (yes, my M4 is also my track car).

I get what you are saying though. I too still love to drive a traditional manual and nail that perfect heel-and-toe downshift going into a corner (I still get to indulge since my wife's S4 is a 6MT). But that is only nostalgia driven.

Want real driver involvement, go drive one early car where you constantly had to adjust gears, throttle, spark advance, mixture, etc... I tried that once, what a challenge even at 20mph .

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You are the one who replied to my post BTW...

Want real driver involvement, go drive one early car where you constantly had to adjust gears, throttle, spark advance, mixture, etc... I tried that once, what a challenge even at 20mph .

But not the only one who read it

I can just see it now - M3 "Purizt" version. Manual gearbox, hand throttle, hand clutch, manual spark advance and mixture - and a crank handle poking out the front Just $200K and available in any color you like as long as it's black! Limited edition so be quick!