6MT or DCT?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dinonz

But not the only one who read it

I can just see it now - M3 "Purizt" version. Manual gearbox, hand throttle, hand clutch, manual spark advance and mixture - and a crank handle poking out the front Just $200K and available in any color you like as long as it's black! Limited edition so be quick!

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Then you're not the purist I spoke of. You may be "into music" but you're not the purist I spoke of.

Nope. And most people aren't. We want the final result to sound like a symphony to our ears, and the snaps, crackle and pops of an LP simply show how old the music is, not how GOOD the music is.

Nostalgia is great, but there's a lot of good music being made today, still complete with live instrumentation...minus the cracks and pops.

Can you tell me why? Is it a power issue? That at a certain point you prefer a DCT over a manual? Just curious.

I prefer this DCT over a manual because:

1. I'm lazy, I don't feel like shifting gears every time I drive the M. I don't need maximum engagement every time I drive the M. It's filled with many other things I appreciate about the car....things other than the transmission. And I've owned 3 manuals, and in every one, occasionally, in the city, or sitting in traffic, I wish I had an automatic.

The fact that I can control the gears when I want to, and then don't have to when I don't want to...it's perfect for me.

2. It's faster. I was just in the mountains for 2 days, on some of the best driving roads east of the Mississippi...and the DCT was phenomenal. Seamless, quick shifts, sometimes even telepathic...and it let me focus on the road, speed, apexes and the scenery. Not once did I think, "Man, I wish I was rowing these gears myself." I had an absolute blast.

When driving my manual in the mountains, it was fun too...but it wasn't MORE fun. It was a different kind of fun.

I drove in peak traffic today. Never once did I think "I wish I didn't have to change gears".

I'm glad you didn't. I would have, if the traffic jam would have been long enough. Again, I don't need to be actively involved in the act driving, when in traffic. I love driving, but not that much, that I want to feel one with the car while proceeding slowly in a long line of cars.

Yes - you're right. Arguing that a DCT is "almost the same as a manual" is the silliest thing I have heard in many years. So stop it

I'm not arguing that it's 'almost the same', never have, never will. I don't care what label anyone considers the DCT, I just know it works great for my needs. Call it an automatic, and that's fine by me. I'll be happily driving this highly-engineered automatic, and not missing the manual one bit.

Again, if I'm buying a Miata, and want to squeeze every ounce of power out of the engine, I'd get the manual.

But when I have the option of a DCT over a manual in a high-horsepower engine, it's a no-brainer for me.

No - I'm annoyed by the silliness of people who cannot just accept that they drive a very fucking good version of an automatic and be done with it. You should check out the "Fake Labels and Badges" thread - putting an M3 badge on a 328i is the same as calling a DCT a "manual". You're just a wanna-be.

Wanna be "what"? If someone says they drive an automated manual gearbox, what are they "posing" as? A purist? LOL "Oh, such posers, we DCT drivers, thinkin' we're driving purists." These are real First World arguments right here.

Interesting - most DCT drivers here who have a issue with it like to quote how we're old fashioned (I've been called a "caveman" etc.) because they're extremely sensitive about their choice.

As a purist, you should take "old fashioned" as a compliment.

Nobody said anything about anyone else's enjoyment of the DCT or having less fun. My issue is with the DCT drivers who insist it's "the same as a manual". Just accept it's not, enjoy it, revel in your technical superiority over us manual drivers, and move on at 0.2 seconds faster to 60.

I accept that. The DCT is not the same as a manual.

It's better.



You know I'm just trying to get under your skin, right?

And just to set the record straight, I KNOW I don't drive a manual, because I purposely didn't check that box when I obtained my M4. Didn't want a manual, not in this car, not when a well-engineered DCT was available. Now if it came with the old, clunky SMG, I would have selected the manual.

When it comes to skill however, suffice to say I will just leave that alone. No doubt there's a skill to using DCT well too (perhaps learning to pre-empt things etc.) however there's no comparing the skill level to the 6MT.

Enjoy mastering your 6MT, and I'll enjoy mastering the DCT. And don't worry, I know I'm not driving a manual, because I didn't buy a manual....I bought something bett.... oh, I won't say it. LOL

So whatever you prefer, enjoy it and try not to call it what it's not. Don't try to put a Porsche badge on a Beetle.

I drive one of the best transmissions available in a passenger car, that's what I drive.

And you drive a manual, because you like to be fully engaged, at all times, even when in traffic. I can respect that.

[SakhirM4]

Some people are sure full of themselves.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

I drive one of the best transmissions available in a passenger car, that's what I drive.

And you drive a manual, because you like to be fully engaged, at all times, even when in traffic.

And you sum it up perfectly in one quote - "you drive the best transmission available". And I think you do. It's just my car is my daily beater as well as my fun car. But thankfully, I don't daily drive to work... I crawl out of bed and stumble 20 feet to my desk.

You didn't try to say "its the same as a manual because I can manually change gears". You love it for it's merits, it suits your needs, and that's perfect. Just like my caveman gearbox suits my needs. I'll be well behind you on mountain roads, sweating like a pig from the extra work, and not giving a flying fuck either... because I'm having the fun I want to have in my car

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by dinonz

And you sum it up perfectly in one quote - "you drive the best transmission available". And I think you do. It's just my car is my daily beater as well as my fun car. But thankfully, I don't daily drive to work... I crawl out of bed and stumble 20 feet to my desk.

You didn't try to say "its the same as a manual because I can manually change gears". You love it for it's merits, it suits your needs, and that's perfect. Just like my caveman gearbox suits my needs. I'll be well behind you on mountain roads, sweating like a pig from the extra work, and not giving a flying fuck either... because I'm having the fun I want to have in my car

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Some people are sure full of themselves.

Careful - that statement sounds like you're full of yourself and are judging others...

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by dinonz

[trey100]

If BMW had made the F80/82 AWD I am sure it would put up better numbers in a straight line and around a track. Many of the same DCT folks saying it is only about performance would cry foul at an AWD model and say even though it's faster, BMWs have to be RWD - Who cares about 0.2 seconds. I hope this doesn't start a RWD is faster than AWD debate btw - that's not the point.

The feel you get from driving the 6MT cannot be replicated with paddles. It really comes down to how important that is to you over total performance.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by trey100

If BMW had made the F80/82 AWD I am sure it would put up better numbers in a straight line and around a track. Many of the same DCT folks saying it is only about performance would cry foul at an AWD model and say even though it's faster, BMWs have to be RWD - Who cares about 0.2 seconds. I hope this doesn't start a RWD is faster than AWD debate btw - that's not the point.

You're exactly right. I don't want an AWD M4. I love steering the car with the throttle.

So for me, it's not ALL about speed, it's also about the option of not having to shift all the time, in every situation. It's also for convenience.

It's not about a faster .2 seconds in stop light races, it's about how quickly I can push the car to higher limits on the track or on a lonely country road, with a transmission that maximizes how fast the car can approach its limits.

And I can do it repeatedly, for hours, without excessive fatigue to me physically....so it's also extended excitement when I want it.

The feel you get from driving the 6MT cannot be replicated with paddles. It really comes down to how important that is to you over total performance.

Yep, for me, not that important to replicate the exact 6MT experience. Again, I purposely didn't check the "manual" box, because I decided I didn't need to have that type of involvement with the car to enjoy it. The DCT gives me an all-new driving experience, and I love it.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

It's not about a faster .2 seconds in stop light races, it's about how quickly I can push the car to higher limits on the track or on a lonely country road, with a transmission that maximizes how fast the car can approach its limits.

And I can do it repeatedly, for hours, without excessive fatigue to me physically....so it's also extended excitement when I want it.

I think I'm the exact opposite - I want to push myself and my abilities to the limit, not the car. And personally, I feel if I'm not fatigued then I didn't try hard enough. It's like running a marathon and feeling fresh as a daisy afterwards - if I do, then I should have tried harder.*

*ok, maybe not a marathon. I can run to the fridge and back.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by dinonz

I think I'm the exact opposite - I want to push myself and my abilities to the limit, not the car. And personally, I feel if I'm not fatigued then I didn't try hard enough. It's like running a marathon and feeling fresh as a daisy afterwards - if I do, then I should have tried harder.*

*ok, maybe not a marathon. I can run to the fridge and back.

If you are pushing a car to the limits you are also pushing your abilities to the limit. There is a lot more to high performance driving than shifting gears.

While it may take more skill to shift a manual transmission than it does to put an AT or DCT in drive and let the car handle the shifts. The ability to shift an MT does not in itself make you a skillful driver.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

If you are pushing a car to the limits you are also pushing your abilities to the limit. There is a lot more to high performance driving than shifting gears.

While it may take more skill to shift a manual transmission than it does to put an AT or DCT in drive and let the car handle the shifts. The ability to shift an MT does not in itself make you a skillful driver.

Quite true - but it does take more skill to bang out consistent laps in a manual.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Quite true - but it does take more skill to bang out consistent laps in a manual.

It takes a considerable amount of skill to bang out consistent laps in any car and IMO shifting gears is a very minor part of the process.

[Rbc44]

My history:
2001 M3 6MT
2006 M3 6MT
2011 M3 DCT
2016 M4 6MT
I have loved them all, in different ways, just like my grandchildren.

[dinonz]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

It takes a considerable amount of skill to bang out consistent laps in any car and IMO shifting gears is a very minor part of the process.

Funny - kevings likes the DCT for how quickly and easily he can push the car to higher limits with less fatigue, and you think it's "very minor".

One of you is wrong

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Funny - kevings likes the DCT for how quickly and easily he can push the car to higher limits with less fatigue, and you think it's "very minor".

One of you is wrong

I have seen it conclusively demonstrated that you can get faster lap times with the DCT but pushing a car to higher limits with less fatigue and getting consistent lap times are not necessarily the same thing.

In any case pushing a car to the limits requires intense concentration regardless of how you are shifting gears.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by dinonz

Funny - kevings likes the DCT for how quickly and easily he can push the car to higher limits with less fatigue, and you think it's "very minor".

One of you is wrong

For me, driving a manual hard for 6+ hours in the mountains, that would be more tiring than driving a DCT.

But that's just me.

The experience could be different for every person.

No contradiction, just different experiences for different people....

[M-Pilot]

I learned how to drive when I was 13-14 in a manual car. I drove only manuals until I was 22. I drove in every condition. Snow, heavy rain, heavy traffic, hours of mountain driving, or hours of highway driving etc. I'm now 26 and I drove AT cars for the last 4 years. During my MT years, I never said "Oh, this is so tiring, I wish I had an AT", not once! I never complained although, I have to admit, it was a little tiring sometimes, especially driving 7-8 hours straight. However, during my ownership of an F30 for the last 2 years, I remember saying "I wish this car had 6MT" several times. It got too boring too quicky. That's why I went with 6MT this time when I ordered my M4. My commute to work is always in heavy traffic both ways all the time and I still love the 6MT. I'm sure DCT can shift faster than I do and it probably has a different fun factor but those are not enough reasons for me to choose it over 6MT.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by cntzl

I learned how to drive when I was 13-14 in a manual car. I drove only manuals until I was 22. I drove in every condition. Snow, heavy rain, heavy traffic, hours of mountain driving, or hours of highway driving etc. I'm now 26 and I drove AT cars for the last 4 years. During my MT years, I never said "Oh, this is so tiring, I wish I had an AT", not once! I never complained although, I have to admit, it was a little tiring sometimes, especially driving 7-8 hours straight. However, during my ownership of an F30 for the last 2 years, I remember saying "I wish this car had 6MT" several times. It got too boring too quicky. That's why I went with 6MT this time when I ordered my M4. My commute to work is always in heavy traffic both ways all the time and I still love the 6MT. I'm sure DCT can shift faster than I do and it probably has a different fun factor but those are not enough reasons for me to choose it over 6MT.

And we're glad you got what you wanted, cnt.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

And we're glad you got what you wanted, cnt.

Not trying to argue with anyone here over which one is better. Just trying to help people decide what to choose Overall, I think DCT is the better transmission while 6MT being more fun IMO.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by cntzl

Thanks, not trying to argue with anyone here over which one is better. Just trying to help people decide what to choose. Overall, I think DCT is the better transmission while 6MT being more fun IMO.

I understand, and I'm not arguing either.

I just think that "more fun" is very subjective.

"More fun" to you may not be the same for me, or everyone else.

Drive both, and then get the one you want, for your specific reasons.

The manual was extremely fun, but that fun would be offset by the times I don't feel like shifting (long trips, traffic, etc.)

The DCT is also extremely fun, and when I don't feel like it, I can just relax. And a lot of time, I'm just relaxing...enjoying the many other features that the M has to offer.

But, to each their own....you got what you wanted, and so did I. And everyone should.