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      01-15-2022, 07:03 AM   #1
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Switching to E85 with some questions

Hey all, so I'm looking to swap to E85 with the BM3 kit and i just can't seem to find out if this fuel system can handle. I've spent the last few years in the corvette world where you cannot run e85 without pairing it with an upgraded fuel system (injectors and low side pump). So im just trying to make sure I can toss in the BM3 E85 kit and just tune and go.

Currently Im on the BM3 stage2 93 tune and I was looking to go to the flex fuel one. I've got catless DP's, cat back, intakes, top mount, and charge pipes. The car is in a good place just looking for the next little bit.

I appreciate any feedback/assistance!
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      01-15-2022, 07:13 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speednate54 View Post
Hey all, so I'm looking to swap to E85 with the BM3 kit and i just can't seem to find out if this fuel system can handle. I've spent the last few years in the corvette world where you cannot run e85 without pairing it with an upgraded fuel system (injectors and low side pump). So im just trying to make sure I can toss in the BM3 E85 kit and just tune and go.

Currently Im on the BM3 stage2 93 tune and I was looking to go to the flex fuel one. I've got catless DP's, cat back, intakes, top mount, and charge pipes. The car is in a good place just looking for the next little bit.

I appreciate any feedback/assistance!
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Originally Posted by Speednate54 View Post
Hey all, so I'm looking to swap to E85 with the BM3 kit and i just can't seem to find out if this fuel system can handle. I've spent the last few years in the corvette world where you cannot run e85 without pairing it with an upgraded fuel system (injectors and low side pump). So im just trying to make sure I can toss in the BM3 E85 kit and just tune and go.

Currently Im on the BM3 stage2 93 tune and I was looking to go to the flex fuel one. I've got catless DP's, cat back, intakes, top mount, and charge pipes. The car is in a good place just looking for the next little bit.

I appreciate any feedback/assistance!

It'll work. A lot of us are on E85 and a stock fuel system.
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      01-15-2022, 09:04 AM   #3
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You can run full E85 on stock turbos. The M engines have two high pressure fuel pumps so it can handle it just fine with room to spare.
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      01-15-2022, 10:18 AM   #4
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I ran full E85 on my M4 without any issues; at the time, I used a custom map by Cary Jordan.
With the flex fuel kit now available, you can run it without the need for a custom map
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      01-15-2022, 12:53 PM   #5
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You can run full E85 on all stock no probs. When you run a Custom (Stage 2+) E85 tune it usually requires pushing the high side fuel pressure above 3600PSI and sometimes a fuel injector can break and leak (they do not stick from lack of lubrication [top lube does nothing], the internal gate breaks from running overpressure). You can simply ask the tuner not to push HPFPs too high, which limits the top end (no biggie, stock turbos decline at 6500RPM, no need or benefit from going to redline).

Another alternative would be an E60 tune (half gas, half E85) which allows the tuner to really give you awesome performance without pushing HPFPs into a risk zone. Torque and HP will be great (~550-575HP), just slightly less than "full E85".
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      01-15-2022, 05:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
You can run full E85 on all stock no probs. When you run a Custom (Stage 2+) E85 tune it usually requires pushing the high side fuel pressure above 3600PSI and sometimes a fuel injector can break and leak (they do not stick from lack of lubrication [top lube does nothing], the internal gate breaks from running overpressure). You can simply ask the tuner not to push HPFPs too high, which limits the top end (no biggie, stock turbos decline at 6500RPM, no need or benefit from going to redline).

Another alternative would be an E60 tune (half gas, half E85) which allows the tuner to really give you awesome performance without pushing HPFPs into a risk zone. Torque and HP will be great (~550-575HP), just slightly less than "full E85".
Were you a big fan or recommend pairing the bend calibration filter kit with the bm3 flex fuel? Seems only a handful of people are bothering with it.
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      01-15-2022, 07:34 PM   #7
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I prefer a non-flex tune. It's cheaper and safer since it's less work and doesn't need to adapt. A "single tune" for a particular fuel still can adapt a little. You can buy 2 custom single tunes for the price of the flex kit plus install plus the flex tune. Just flash back and forth…only takes 60sec.
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      01-15-2022, 09:49 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
I prefer a non-flex tune. It's cheaper and safer since it's less work and doesn't need to adapt. A "single tune" for a particular fuel still can adapt a little. You can buy 2 custom single tunes for the price of the flex kit plus install plus the flex tune. Just flash back and forth…only takes 60sec.
Thanks that makes sense, is the bend filter kit something worth while? I know running normal gas every so often helps but I remember another forum member having clogged injectors despite taking precautions
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      01-16-2022, 07:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookitsapples View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
I prefer a non-flex tune. It's cheaper and safer since it's less work and doesn't need to adapt. A "single tune" for a particular fuel still can adapt a little. You can buy 2 custom single tunes for the price of the flex kit plus install plus the flex tune. Just flash back and forth…only takes 60sec.
Thanks that makes sense, is the bend filter kit something worth while? I know running normal gas every so often helps but I remember another forum member having clogged injectors despite taking precautions
I see no reason to add a fuel filter kit. If it was common maybe, but one guy…one injector…?
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      01-16-2022, 07:26 AM   #10
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I see no reason to add a fuel filter kit. If it was common maybe, but one guy…one injector…?
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      01-16-2022, 11:46 AM   #11
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As someone who works in refinery's you should definitely change you mindset on filtration if you have written it off as useful. The OE system doesn't even come close to meeting Bosch spec for their high pressure injection systems and over time the extra material will also damage the pintle. Secondly, consider how good it is to have mismatched flow from all of your injectors as I've seen the reports come back from mildly used S55 sets of injectors which are all over the place for flows. Lastly, most additives will actually coagulate and create nasty gunk in your fuel tank so you're shooting yourself in the foot by trying to chemically treat a problem that can be solved with filtration.
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      01-16-2022, 11:57 AM   #12
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I'll also add this; fellow was adding Lucas products to his E85 in CA and this gel substance coated everything throughout his fuel tank over a year of use. Albeit this is an extreme case but just more proof. I'm not one to make things up.
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      01-16-2022, 12:12 PM   #13
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Some other fun examples…having knowledge of the light naphtha (very low octane garbage) which is cut with some sources of E85 definitely brings issues for some depending on the quality of the fuel supply. All E85 is not the same throughout the country. I also don't run the products from some refinery's I've worked at for this and other reasons. For SoCal folks, I like Propel.
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      01-16-2022, 05:27 PM   #14
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I try to keep an open mind, so now I'm concerned…

Commanderwiggin so the gel issue comes from ACN when mixed with Ethanol? Where does the Naptha come into play?

For those running clean quality fuel or straight E85 don't the HPFPs provide good enough filtration?
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      01-16-2022, 06:06 PM   #15
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The gel is from mixing additives mostly although could be from some varied blends of naphtha which is cut into the mix depending on the source…or just poor fractionation of the products. Gel/coagulation can be two separate issues.

You've got to imagine the fuel flow from A-B…most refineries are decades old and some approaching a century. When they're retrofit for E85 fuels or even just old storage tanks and piping there is every opportunity for particulates…trucking and gas station storage tanks as well. This is not unique to just E85 and I consider a very low micron filter a requirement for all fuels, Diesel, 91, E85, Race fuels even. You just never know what could be in the tanks/lines. It only takes one bad fill up to make a bad day and I sleep comfortable at night knowing I'm not sending trash into my HPFP and Injectors.

Also there is no fuel filtration provided by a non replaceable filter element anywhere in the world. In these cases it's mainly to prevent any crazy large particles from entering the tight tolerance pump from having a massive failure. If the engine isn't getting fuel, it will not be as big of an issue from an OE perspective and will require the troubleshooting and replacement of full HPFP/Injector assembly most likely at that point based on ISTA recommendations. Low micron fuel filtration will prevent these specific failures.
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      01-16-2022, 07:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
As someone who works in refinery's you should definitely change you mindset on filtration if you have written it off as useful. The OE system doesn't even come close to meeting Bosch spec for their high pressure injection systems and over time the extra material will also damage the pintle. Secondly, consider how good it is to have mismatched flow from all of your injectors as I've seen the reports come back from mildly used S55 sets of injectors which are all over the place for flows. Lastly, most additives will actually coagulate and create nasty gunk in your fuel tank so you're shooting yourself in the foot by trying to chemically treat a problem that can be solved with filtration.
What does an injector cleaning like this entail- how do they do it and how much does it cost?

Were those numbers from a car you drove? I would imagine whatever car they came off of was not feeling very good lol
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      01-16-2022, 07:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
Some other fun examples…having knowledge of the light naphtha (very low octane garbage) which is cut with some sources of E85 definitely brings issues for some depending on the quality of the fuel supply. All E85 is not the same throughout the country. I also don't run the products from some refinery's I've worked at for this and other reasons. For SoCal folks, I like Propel.
Any recommendations for NorCal folks?
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      01-16-2022, 07:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtl32 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
As someone who works in refinery's you should definitely change you mindset on filtration if you have written it off as useful. The OE system doesn't even come close to meeting Bosch spec for their high pressure injection systems and over time the extra material will also damage the pintle. Secondly, consider how good it is to have mismatched flow from all of your injectors as I've seen the reports come back from mildly used S55 sets of injectors which are all over the place for flows. Lastly, most additives will actually coagulate and create nasty gunk in your fuel tank so you're shooting yourself in the foot by trying to chemically treat a problem that can be solved with filtration.
What does an injector cleaning like this entail- how do they do it and how much does it cost?

Were those numbers from a car you drove? I would imagine whatever car they came off of was not feeling very good lol
Typically remove the injectors, send them to a shop with experience cleaning GDI injectors and they flow test/clean them. When you get them back you need to resleeve and reinstall as per TIS. There are some tools recommended for this.

Here's a vid of an ASNU GDI cleaner/test bench.


There's other equipment out there too and just depends; just searched and this came up so it might even be a more detailed test.


Most of the folks I've spoken with end up utilizing RC Fuel Injection in Torrance, CA for testing/cleaning.

In regards to the flow tests, these were from friends I know in the car community. The one that had no flow from the injector ended up losing compression on that cylinder after running into the issue at a half mile event. A filter isn't going to save every injector from every scenario but it will definitely save them from getting full of contaminants.
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      01-16-2022, 07:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F82KPowers View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
Some other fun examples…having knowledge of the light naphtha (very low octane garbage) which is cut with some sources of E85 definitely brings issues for some depending on the quality of the fuel supply. All E85 is not the same throughout the country. I also don't run the products from some refinery's I've worked at for this and other reasons. For SoCal folks, I like Propel.
Any recommendations for NorCal folks?
Lots of Propel stations up there…should be no issue but again will come down to other factors with any fuel station like quality of fuel tank, lines, etc… I wish I had a crystal ball that told me the best fuel stations to fill up at but having a filter will not hurt so that's what I do.
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      01-17-2022, 12:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F82KPowers View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin View Post
Some other fun examples…having knowledge of the light naphtha (very low octane garbage) which is cut with some sources of E85 definitely brings issues for some depending on the quality of the fuel supply. All E85 is not the same throughout the country. I also don't run the products from some refinery's I've worked at for this and other reasons. For SoCal folks, I like Propel.
Any recommendations for NorCal folks?
Lots of Propel stations up there…should be no issue but again will come down to other factors with any fuel station like quality of fuel tank, lines, etc… I wish I had a crystal ball that told me the best fuel stations to fill up at but having a filter will not hurt so that's what I do.
Do you know what Lucas product the person was using? I'm using Lucas ethanol treatment but I'm wondering if I should stop all together.

Many thanks for your insight

Would you avoid G&M E85? I don't have a propel station near by but G&M is everywhere.
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      01-17-2022, 05:03 AM   #21
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I would not say the problem is centered around Lucas but additives in general. The better the additive the more it will be used and the name thrown around. Lucas Oil is known to be very good and a solid product....but a chemical combination reaction is what it is......
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      01-17-2022, 02:13 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellokitty View Post
Do you know what Lucas product the person was using? I'm using Lucas ethanol treatment but I'm wondering if I should stop all together.

Many thanks for your insight

Would you avoid G&M E85? I don't have a propel station near by but G&M is everywhere.
It was the Lucas Ethanol Treatment in the first image yes.

As for G&M E85 it's typically Pearson products iirc. I've filled up at them before but would lean towards Propel if given the option. And I think you already know my thought on filtration :P
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