Chris Harris F80 M3 review testing notes

[ASAP]

If anyone has driven a properly tuned N54 that makes ~ 420 whp (which by the way you have to shift 1300 rpm before the S55 for peak power) then they'd know it is far from boring... that is the last word to use here. You might still be able to see the S65 in your rear view mirror but even if you can't, you might be able to hear it make noise lol.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

If anyone has driven a properly tuned N54 that makes ~ 420 whp (which by the way you have to shift 1300 rpm before the S55 for peak power) then they'd know it is far from boring... that is the last word to use here. You might still be able to see the S65 in your rear view mirror but even if you can't, you might be able to hear it make noise lol.

I have, and to me it was boring. I had a 2007 335 with a jb3 Dci catless and when the car was performing properly and not throwing limps left and right it was still nothing compared exciting feel, sound, and specialness of the s65.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by grant

I agree, but with respect to Electric Steering, can you provide an example where it's ever been done as well as a really first-rate hydraulic rack?

I believe the best example is the 991 GT3 and not a single reviewer has said it's as good or better than its hydraulic predecessor (and most examples are much worse, and quite a few downright awful).

I have a simple response to that... once upon a time it was bemoaned endlessly that hydraulic was the death of good steering feel at the expense of comfort and light steering when power steering was introduced. It wasn't "suitable" to a sports car. Now we've moved to the next generation and the argument repeats. Not that it isn't valid in its own ways, but still a replay.

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by ASAP

If anyone has driven a properly tuned N54 that makes ~ 420 whp (which by the way you have to shift 1300 rpm before the S55 for peak power) then they'd know it is far from boring... that is the last word to use here. You might still be able to see the S65 in your rear view mirror but even if you can't, you might be able to hear it make noise lol.

My brother has a 135is, and it's not 420 whp, but it's all sorts of fun and drama and joy every time I get behind the wheel, and honestly every time he pulls away from my house. I love it for every inch and decibel of what it is. Just as I love every inch and decibel of many wonderful engines on many wonderful cars.

Never forget how privileged we all are to even have such silly things to debate!

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by KKM3

I have, and to me it was boring. I had a 2007 335 with a jb3 Dci catless and when the car was performing properly and not throwing limps left and right it was still nothing compared exciting feel, sound, and specialness of the s65.

Well, hey if revving to 8300 in 1st gear to get that car to even move under 60 MPH floats your boat, then so be it.

Literally had 3 chances to buy this car over the past 5 years... passed each time. When I get to drive my friends every once in a while, I am glad I did pass...

The 1M on the other hand, I cry to do this day for not being early enough.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by grant

I agree, but with respect to Electric Steering, can you provide an example where it's ever been done as well as a really first-rate hydraulic rack?

I believe the best example is the 991 GT3 and not a single reviewer has said it's as good or better than its hydraulic predecessor (and most examples are much worse, and quite a few downright awful).

I prefer the eps in my 2013 s4 over the hydraulic setup in the earlier 2010-2012 versions. It's more accurate/precise, the car will go exactly where you point it, it's really hard to describe but the more you drive it the more you realize that it actually is better than hydraulic steering and it feels like a step forward in almost every aspect.

I also may be the only member here that is excited about the switch to eps in the new m3. I think it's going to be much better than the outgoing unit.

[KKM3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Well, hey if revving to 8300 in 1st gear to get that car to even move under 60 MPH floats your boat, then so be it.

Literally had 3 chances to buy this car over the past 5 years... passed each time. When I get to drive my friends every once in a while, I am glad I did pass...

The 1M on the other hand, I cry to do this day for not being early enough.

I had a 2008 m3 with a manual and yes you did have to wind the engine quite a bit to get the most out of it (still way more fun than a 335) but after I got one equipped with dct I had no problems with picking up speed. The transmission is just geared to move the car along fine in any gear at any rpms.

I had my friends drive my 335 and my m3, not one of them prefered the 335 to the m3... Not one. Everyone who had the oppurtunity to swing my car passed 7k rpm instantly fell in love with the car. It really is something special and I really miss my m3. Not even my v10 r8 has the kind of response and feel my3 did. It truly was something very special.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

If anyone has driven a properly tuned N54 that makes ~ 420 whp (which by the way you have to shift 1300 rpm before the S55 for peak power) then they'd know it is far from boring... that is the last word to use here. You might still be able to see the S65 in your rear view mirror but even if you can't, you might be able to hear it make noise lol.

IMO when you compare a S65 to a modded 335i. they are both "fun" and both are fast. the differences is that the S65 sounds like a monster, and gives more emotion.

the modded 335i is fun because it has power everywhere. the FEEL of the power is what makes it fun. but it lacks emotion.

although a lot of people do not care about the emotion factor, they are like you. They just want power and to beat other cars. and laugh at the M3 drivers because your car can go faster in a straight line. AS if there is nothing to the S65 other than its power numbers. why would anyone buy a M3 when you can tune a 335i? thats how a lot of 335i owners are.

As someone who doesn't like turbo engines that much. i feel like as time goes on, and these N/A engines are not being made anymore. I feel like i would get a GTR, so at least i can beat every car on the road. thats the point of these turbos right ?

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

IMO when you compare a S65 to a modded 335i. they are both "fun" and both are fast. the differences is that the S65 sounds like a monster, and gives more emotion.

the modded 335i is fun because it has power everywhere. the FEEL of the power is what makes it fun. but it lacks emotion.

although a lot of people do not care about the emotion factor, they are like you. They just want power and to beat other cars. and laugh at the M3 drivers because your car can go faster in a straight line. AS if there is nothing to the S65 other than its power numbers. why would anyone buy a M3 when you can tune a 335i? thats how a lot of 335i owners are.

As someone who doesn't like turbo engines that much. i feel like as time goes on, and these N/A engines are not being made anymore. I feel like i would get a GTR, so at least i can beat every car on the road. thats the point of these turbos right ?

nah.....my choice was between an E92 M3 (used) and a new 135is.....i had way more fun driving the 1er around and had to have one. If you haven't tried one....go drive a 135is. Comes stock with the performance exhaust.....it sounds old school beautiful with popping, gurgling, and screaming....like a 60s Alfa Romeo. Yeah really that good. Aside from being very very quick....it is bucket loads of fun to drive. I've had friends in my car who ARE vintage sports car enthusiasts as well as 1980s BMW M enthusiasts and they've all said the car sounds amazing....plenty of emotion!

I think you are casting a very wide net in dismissing turbocharged engines. The reality is there are great N/A engines as well as shit ones; same goes for Turbo engines.

[W17NNY]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

IMO when you compare a S65 to a modded 335i. they are both "fun" and both are fast. the differences is that the S65 sounds like a monster, and gives more emotion.

the modded 335i is fun because it has power everywhere. the FEEL of the power is what makes it fun. but it lacks emotion.

although a lot of people do not care about the emotion factor, they are like you. They just want power and to beat other cars. and laugh at the M3 drivers because your car can go faster in a straight line. AS if there is nothing to the S65 other than its power numbers. why would anyone buy a M3 when you can tune a 335i? thats how a lot of 335i owners are.

As someone who doesn't like turbo engines that much. i feel like as time goes on, and these N/A engines are not being made anymore. I feel like i would get a GTR, so at least i can beat every car on the road. thats the point of these turbos right ?

Why would you buy an M3 when you can tune a 335i??? Eh because a 335i will NEVER be an M3, it won't handle, brake or look etc etc like an M3, simple.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

nah.....my choice was between an E92 M3 (used) and a new 135is.....i had way more fun driving the 1er around and had to have one. If you haven't tried one....go drive a 135is. Comes stock with the performance exhaust.....it sounds old school beautiful with popping, gurgling, and screaming....like a 60s Alfa Romeo. Yeah really that good. Aside from being very very quick....it is bucket loads of fun to drive. I've had friends in my car who ARE vintage sports car enthusiasts as well as 1980s BMW M enthusiasts and they've all said the car sounds amazing....plenty of emotion!

I think you are casting a very wide net in dismissing turbocharged engines. The reality is there are great N/A engines as well as shit ones; same goes for Turbo engines.

I have driven plenty of both types of engine. like i said i like them both, they are both fun. although for the most part i feel N/A sound better and give a different feel. I would rather have a N/A on a track.

i would probably rather have a Turbo for the road.

[imserious]

Originally Posted by Boss330

And here is another Chris Harris reply on PH to a comment on the new M3/4:

The mans on fire

Nice! Pretty cool for CH to duke it out on internet forums.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by W17NNY

Why would you buy an M3 when you can tune a 335i??? Eh because a 335i will NEVER be an M3, it won't handle, brake or look etc etc like an M3, simple.

thats a concept that a lot do not understand.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Well, I never said the S55 is boring. I said that it has a different character. I also said that I'm sure it's awesome. There's plenty to be excited about, but that doesn't mean the old cars suddenly become boring either.

The point isn't to take away from the F8x M-cars, it is to recognize that some people will still prefer the old high-revving engines, in spite of their flaws.

I'm sure you're familiar with the common saying, "A slow car driven fast is more fun than a fast car driven slowly." I think the whole high-revving N/A versus massively powerful turbocharged engine debate shares some commonalities with the slow-car-fast/fast-car-slow line of thought. Even though the high-revving N/A engine loses on performance, there are qualities that are missing from the new crop of high-performance turbocharged engines. These new engines are remarkable, but they're different.

I do think it's a bit silly that anyone who values engines like the S65 would take any time whatsoever to disparage the S55. They're both superlative engines in their own right.

Yeah, it wasn't aimed at you or implying you meant the S55 was boring

I agree 100% on with your opinion about the different characteristics and how both can be fun, but perhaps in slightly different ways

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by grant

I agree, but with respect to Electric Steering, can you provide an example where it's ever been done as well as a really first-rate hydraulic rack?

I believe the best example is the 991 GT3 and not a single reviewer has said it's as good or better than its hydraulic predecessor (and most examples are much worse, and quite a few downright awful).

The same goes for hydraulic assist vs non assisted steering as well. A first rate non assisted steering, like in many Lotus models, has always been better than hydraulic assisted ones...

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

thats a concept that a lot do not understand.

1M, that was numero uno but limited production screwed everyone.

[TomTom///M]

Originally Posted by ASAP

1M, that was numero uno but limited production screwed everyone.

Well, everyone that didn't get one, that is...

[sdhotwn]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

thats a concept that a lot do not understand.

Some don't. Some from your perspective also don't understand those that choose not to. I've done both. I enjoy tuning cars and working on them and seeing the gains from that work both in performance and handling. To me, messing with an M is a bit sacrilegious, they are so great as they are, and tuning them hurts the value. So I didn't do it when I had mine. Now as the years have gone by, I could see doing it to the E46 because I didn't like that one . E90 is another one I wouldn't fiddle with.

For others it is the cost, or they may simply not revere the ///M badge, so they'd rather save the money and try to match/exceed the handling for less if they can. That argument has raged on the internet since forums existed. Never putting that one to rest.

I personally prefer turbo motors over N/A. I used to hand build motors on Mazda's when I owned a performance company. N/A's CAN sound so much better, and be more responsive to the foot, but turbo's have so much headroom, and properly tuned and designed can be so silky and generate so much torque in all the right places that I was hooked on that.

Everybody has an opinion!

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by sdhotwn

Some don't. Some from your perspective also don't understand those that choose not to. I've done both. I enjoy tuning cars and working on them and seeing the gains from that work both in performance and handling. To me, messing with an M is a bit sacrilegious, they are so great as they are, and tuning them hurts the value. So I didn't do it when I had mine. Now as the years have gone by, I could see doing it to the E46 because I didn't like that one . E90 is another one I wouldn't fiddle with.

For others it is the cost, or they may simply not revere the ///M badge, so they'd rather save the money and try to match/exceed the handling for less if they can. That argument has raged on the internet since forums existed. Never putting that one to rest.

I personally prefer turbo motors over N/A. I used to hand build motors on Mazda's when I owned a performance company. N/A's CAN sound so much better, and be more responsive to the foot, but turbo's have so much headroom, and properly tuned and designed can be so silky and generate so much torque in all the right places that I was hooked on that.

Everybody has an opinion!

i see both ways. I see why people love turbo engines. on the sole reason they make the power better. cheaper, and can be played (tune) with easier for gains.

the biggest thing guys here talk about. is the better found power in a turbo. at more useable RPMs.

heres my biggest problem though. My e92 m3 had a full exhaust with a tune/8500RPM redline. the car sounded and felt very very good. the overall experience was different than a modded 335i that i drove. although both cars were fast. they did it in a different way. the 335i power comes on really early then just stays flat, not as much character. the engine doesn't even change in sound. they were different cars! now the F80 is pretty much a M modded 335i.

there was more excitement watching and hearing the RPMs go above 8k. i fear the M4 will be less exciting in this sense.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

nah.....my choice was between an E92 M3 (used) and a new 135is.....i had way more fun driving the 1er around and had to have one. If you haven't tried one....go drive a 135is. Comes stock with the performance exhaust.....it sounds old school beautiful with popping, gurgling, and screaming....like a 60s Alfa Romeo. Yeah really that good. Aside from being very very quick....it is bucket loads of fun to drive. I've had friends in my car who ARE vintage sports car enthusiasts as well as 1980s BMW M enthusiasts and they've all said the car sounds amazing....plenty of emotion!

I think you are casting a very wide net in dismissing turbocharged engines. The reality is there are great N/A engines as well as shit ones; same goes for Turbo engines.

my wife has a 135i and it is fun to drive...until you take it to the track and it doesn't handle worth shit and you feel the loss of power up top as well as its weight

[M3ryder55]

this car's power delivery is epic. 0-60 in less than 4 secs for a 70k car is unreal, rated some 100hp plus less than the competition putting down the same times.

i was on the S65 bandwagon. still am, but now move with the times.

I-6 to V8= the death of BMW in 2007-2008

V8-I-6TT= the death of BMW in 2013-2014

History repeats. This car is much faster, more fun to drive (from reviews) and subjective I like a balance between noise and power. I always hated how the S65 despite having 414hp lacked that feeling of thrusting me back in my seat. To me, it's a balance, I may have a magnificent sounding car, but I want to FEEL the power. The F8X does just that, which is what I commend BMW for. This thing will destroy the E9X in every performance test.

Electronic steering? well there is a reason for the transition. it is better! they won't move backwards with these cars, even porsche has done the same

Forced Induction? well this is the future. EPA has stricter regulations. European Union's EPA is perhaps the strictest in the world and always makes these bold transitions before the rest. The rest of the world will follow suit.

The future lies with what is in the P1. Supplementing an electronic motor in conjunction with a forced induction motor to eliminate all lag, and increase combustion to increase performance. At the same time being "green" and sustaining good mpg.

the solution to it all, get an after market exhaust, to make that S55 roar more. How could you not love that backfire after shifting from 1st to 2nd! sounds so brutal!

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

Looks like I'll have to spend more time over at Pistonheads. Seems like an epic battle between two fairly well spoken/written car enthusiasts.

I'll admit I was actually fairly compelled by cmoose, until Chris Harris rolled onto the scene for the smackdown.

Very well said. Jeremy Laird/cmoose "got owned" (as the kids say) by Chris. Well done on Chris' part.