Chris Harris F80 M3 review testing notes

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Ok now I'm convinced...the reviews have been great minus some criticism of the engine note and maybe the steering although that's very subjective.

Anybody who still says this car won't be awesome in every measurable department is either an M5 owner who regrets spending the extra 25k for an over bloated pig or a previous E9x owner who probably can't afford a new F8x car at the moment or is too much in love with the previous generation.

Too many glass half empty guys on this forum...

there are plenty of guys who bought the E9x new. i think saying that they dont want the car because they cant afford it is rather silly. although there are probably some who do feel that way. also some are in fact in love with there car. remember the E9x m3 is a pretty dam good car too.


i think the car will be great. although i am waiting to see what the competitors will do.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

there are plenty of guys who bought the E9x new. i think saying that they dont want the car because they cant afford it is rather silly. although there are probably some who do feel that way. also some are in fact in love with there car. remember the E9x m3 is a pretty dam good car too.


i think the car will be great. although i am waiting to see what the competitors will do.

There are people who still miss the excitement of dialing on an old rotary phone. Old is always better than new crowd, I forgot about those too...

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

there are plenty of guys who bought the E9x new. i think saying that they dont want the car because they cant afford it is rather silly. although there are probably some who do feel that way. also some are in fact in love with there car. remember the E9x m3 is a pretty dam good car too.


i think the car will be great. although i am waiting to see what the competitors will do.

Agree with both of you. I think most guys with E9X M's can afford a new one, and even those that can't can because of BMW leasing. And also think there are lots of E9X guys trying to make themselves feel better by disparaging the F8X.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by FTS

I am with you TomTom, my relations have been going for the worse with P brand. Something happened in the last 3 months, not sure what, but things aren't the same. Now I am very hopeful that I can restart my relations with BMW. Best of luck to you.

Hey just a comment on your video and the acceleration at the 90 second mark of the GT2 vs. your GT3.

To me, it seemed like you were in the wrong gear coming out of the turn. I'm basing that solely upon the speed at which I saw you accelerate - you did not seem to be in the meat of the GT3 powerband. And, while I could be wrong, you didn't appear to be accelerating appropriate to the GT3 at 90-120mph in the upper reaches of the powerband.

However, on another note, I agree with you on a turbo's powerband especially in the F80. The F80 is making MORE power at 5500 rpms - the bottom of it's gear change - due to it's sheer torque - than the e9x was making at ~8200 rpms - the top of it's gear change.

[aus]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Ok now I'm convinced...the reviews have been great minus some criticism of the engine note and maybe the steering although that's very subjective.

Anybody who still says this car won't be awesome in every measurable department is either an M5 owner who regrets spending the extra 25k for an over bloated pig or a previous E9x owner who probably can't afford a new F8x car at the moment or is too much in love with the previous generation.

Too many glass half empty guys on this forum...

New //M cars are always faster than the previous car.
And I can EASILY afford a new R8x. This is the issue from Autocar: "It's just the motor.. I'm just not sure this car benefits from being turbocharged... but come one, the engine is at the CENTER of every //M car... it doesn't have that rip to it that a real proper //M engine has had in the past."

.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by aus

New //M cars are always faster than the previous car.
And I can EASILY afford a new R8x. This is the issue from Autocar: "It's just the motor.. I'm just not sure this car benefits from being turbocharged... but come one, the engine is at the CENTER of every //M car... it doesn't have that rip to it that a real proper //M engine has had in the past."

.

Yeah but you're only singling out one review out of about 15 that came out. I'm sure there will be some that for one reason or another don't like something about the car, that's to be expected. Look at the whole picture and the reviews from the respected reviewers...

The negative or highly skeptical few from this board are just focusing on what their subconscious negative minds were seeking...it's tough to overcome the positive reality when you're predisposed to negativity.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Yeah but you're only singling out one review out of about 15 that came out. I'm sure there will be some that for one reason or another don't like something about the car, that's to be expected. Look at the whole picture and the reviews from the respected reviewers...

The negative or highly skeptical few from this board are just focusing on what their subconscious negative minds were seeking...it's tough to overcome the positive reality when you're predisposed to negativity.

Playing devil's advocate here, a tractor motor has plenty of motivating power, but it's uninspiring to use. The S55 has a very different character from past M engines. I don't mean to equate it with a tractor engine, obviously. My point is that just because an engine is powerful doesn't make it inspiring.

I think the M4 is going to be awesome, but I'm doing a lease take over on a 2013 E92 for now. I really want the V8 for its visceral involvement... at least for a while. I'll probably move to an M4 at the end of that lease, but I can understand why someone would sorely miss the S65, S54, etc.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

There are people who still miss the excitement of dialing on an old rotary phone. Old is always better than new crowd, I forgot about those too...

I don't cling to the old rotary telephone because it's more exciting; I stick with it because it has a more direct engagement than the new electronic, digitally assisted phones being sold nowadays.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Playing devil's advocate here, a tractor motor has plenty of motivating power, but it's uninspiring to use. The S55 has a very different character from past M engines. I don't mean to equate it with a tractor engine, obviously. My point is that just because an engine is powerful doesn't make it inspiring.

I think the M4 is going to be awesome, but I'm doing a lease take over on a 2013 E92 for now. I really want the V8 for its visceral involvement... at least for a while. I'll probably move to an M4 at the end of that lease, but I can understand why someone would sorely miss the S65, S54, etc.

Chris Harris had this to say about the F8x M:

"The M3 is a cracker in my opinion. Anyone who thinks the powertrain is boring needs their head looking at. But that's just my opinion. What really matters is what owners think of the car. I hope to be one of those at some point. And I'll still drive the odd GT3."

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

I don't cling to the old rotary telephone because it's more exciting; I stick with it because it has a more direct engagement than the new electronic, digitally assisted phones being sold nowadays.

Plus they don't make that Barbie Pink color anymore.

[Sapper_M3]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Plus they don't make that Barbie Pink color anymore.

That's honestly not even a determining factor for me anymore. I have a local paint shop that keeps the color on-hand.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

I don't cling to the old rotary telephone because it's more exciting; I stick with it because it has a more direct engagement than the new electronic, digitally assisted phones being sold nowadays.

YESSSSS....we found one. It didn't take long....

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Sapper_M3

That's honestly not even a determining factor for me anymore. I have a local paint shop that keeps the color on-hand.

...and here I thought I was the only one.

[dreamsongs]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Chris Harris had this to say about the F8x M:

"The M3 is a cracker in my opinion. Anyone who thinks the powertrain is boring needs their head looking at. But that's just my opinion. What really matters is what owners think of the car. I hope to be one of those at some point. And I'll still drive the odd GT3."

That's all I need to know....

[imserious]

Wow, lots of people take Chris Harris as gospel. I'm certainly a fan, but not a disciple.

Anyways, encouraging review. But it didn't really say anything new. It basically confirms what everyone already knows about the car from the specs. It is going to be a superior performance car to previous M3s, but with a different character. What CH's review does is provide some assurance that the drawbacks (steering, turbos, etc.) are not deal breakers. They are just compromises.

I think what will be really interesting is to start seeing the comparisons with current generation competitors. We know what the M3/4 is. Now how does it compare to the C63, corvette, 911, etc?

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by imserious

Wow, lots of people take Chris Harris as gospel. I'm certainly a fan, but not a disciple.

Anyways, encouraging review. But it didn't really say anything new. It basically confirms what everyone already knows about the car from the specs. It is going to be a superior performance car to previous M3s, but with a different character. What CH's review does is provide some assurance that the drawbacks (steering, turbos, etc.) are not deal breakers. They are just compromises.

I think what will be really interesting is to start seeing the comparisons with current generation competitors. We know what the M3/4 is. Now how does it compare to the C63, corvette, 911, etc?

Just to put this into context. The part I quoted was from the Pistonheads forums and was part of CH's reply to a comment from the editor of green car magazine iCAR.

Here is the full reply:

cmoose said:
Perhaps. But I also think that perhaps the current car enthusiast journalistic crop forgets that the guy buying the M3/4 may not actually drive much or even anything else regularly. So while journos are routinely in something with a really extreme engine / getting their visceral fix and therefore think, OK for my daily this new M3 engine is bland but torquey and that's OK, for the people buying this car I think they should be encouraged to demand something more exciting and life affirming than yet another samey, numb turbo rocket.

If you're driving GT3s and Paganis and P1s and LaFs regularly, a bland M3 lump is OK for a daily / chase / camera car etc. If it's really all you drive, the loss of the old NA BMW engines is a minor tragedy - that's what made M cars so wonderful, you drove a saloon with an engine that was as special and exciting as a supercar.

Plus the M3 daily of today is the used performance bargain / weekend toy of tomorrow, and none of the latest M crop appeal in that context, more's the pity.


Chris Harris replies:
Jeremy - I'm going to call you by your real name Mr.Laird because I think you often represent yourself as being 'in the trade' and people like us - journalists - don't really have the right to hide behind soubriquets.

Before presenting yourself as the arbiter of what all car enthusiasts should want in an everyday, fast saloon car, it might be best to drive the new M3. If you do and still think the engine is bland, it'll confirm that my opinion on the subject of what is usable, enjoyable and an acceptable loss in 'feel' in the face of ever more stringent emissions and safety regulations is very different to yours. Of course mine is just another opinion, as is yours, but If you'd like to openly discuss which of us better understands this end of the marketplace,and what buyers are actually looking for, then I'm happy to do so here. And admit my mistakes. But as far as I can recall, I have never edited a car magazine devoted to electric cars and hybrids. However, I have lived with pretty much every car in this class for tens of thousands of miles at a time.

Of course your blanket dismissal of people like me spending too much time in GT3s to be able to judge what someone might want from a single performance car is ludicrous, so I won't bother to explain it.

What I will reiterate is that torque is far more useful than outright power in a street car. And I think more absorbing for a daily driver over time. The new M3 has torque and too end. I ran an E92 M3 everyday, for 11,000 miles to confirm that'll had too little of the former. But I also drove a few Zondaghinis during that period, so according to your theory, I'm not qualified to state that I had to drive the buttons off it to stay ahead of turbodiesels and I just couldn't enjoy that amazing top end enough.

Fuel economy? Read again - I'm talking about range. Range is what matters to people who can afford a £60k car. Spending less time at horrid fuel stations. And that is sadly quite closely related to fuel economy. Again, my frequent exposure to Ferraris must mean that I don't quite understand the range issue on the E92.

Sorry if you think I've given you both barrels unfairly, but I don't think it's fair to jump chameleon-style between being forum punter and journalist when it suits you. And then to have pops from the sidelines .

The M3 is a cracker in my opinion. Anyone who thinks the powertrain is boring needs their head looking at. But that's just my opinion. What really matters is what owners think of the car. I hope to be one of those at some point. And I'll still drive the odd GT3.

Typed on my phone, so apologies for typos etc

It's been posted previously on this thread as well in case you missed it

Here is the PH thread:
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing...+PH+Blog&mid=0

[Boss330]

And here is another Chris Harris reply on PH to a comment on the new M3/4:

PunterCam said:
Very plain cars, quite dull. Without the exciting and slightly exotic engines of old, I don't see why you'd buy one of these over a turbo diesel.

Chris Harris replies:
Look up 'uninformed' in the dictionary, and this is now the new definition.

The mans on fire

[consolidated]

It's popular to be a luddite in the age of tech and media. Everything from hotels, clothing to potato chips are now marketed as crafted, handmade, original, analog, raw, vintage and curated. Tech we're told is the barrier to an authentic experience. There's some truth to it, but it's also so F'ing trendy and cliche.

I disagree that Turbo, Elec steering, DSC, DCT = fake experience, less experience. It's all a matter of how it's done to me.

[grant]

Originally Posted by consolidated

I disagree that Turbo, Elec steering, DSC, DCT = fake experience, less experience. It's all a matter of how it's done to me.

I agree, but with respect to Electric Steering, can you provide an example where it's ever been done as well as a really first-rate hydraulic rack?

I believe the best example is the 991 GT3 and not a single reviewer has said it's as good or better than its hydraulic predecessor (and most examples are much worse, and quite a few downright awful).

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Chris Harris had this to say about the F8x M:

"The M3 is a cracker in my opinion. Anyone who thinks the powertrain is boring needs their head looking at. But that's just my opinion. What really matters is what owners think of the car. I hope to be one of those at some point. And I'll still drive the odd GT3."

Well, I never said the S55 is boring. I said that it has a different character. I also said that I'm sure it's awesome. There's plenty to be excited about, but that doesn't mean the old cars suddenly become boring either.

The point isn't to take away from the F8x M-cars, it is to recognize that some people will still prefer the old high-revving engines, in spite of their flaws.

I'm sure you're familiar with the common saying, "A slow car driven fast is more fun than a fast car driven slowly." I think the whole high-revving N/A versus massively powerful turbocharged engine debate shares some commonalities with the slow-car-fast/fast-car-slow line of thought. Even though the high-revving N/A engine loses on performance, there are qualities that are missing from the new crop of high-performance turbocharged engines. These new engines are remarkable, but they're different.

I do think it's a bit silly that anyone who values engines like the S65 would take any time whatsoever to disparage the S55. They're both superlative engines in their own right.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Agree with both of you. I think most guys with E9X M's can afford a new one, and even those that can't can because of BMW leasing. And also think there are lots of E9X guys trying to make themselves feel better by disparaging the F8X.

I know im pulling strings here, but I would disagree that MOST guys with E9X M's can afford new ones. Have you seen what man of the 08-10 M cars are going for these days? 30-40% new (and that's being conservative) Odds are, if someone is going to make the next step, they're probably not going to want a base model stripper. For those who want to refute this because you want one: you're a small minority. That being said, even a lightly optioned F8X will run 5-15K more than the "old" ones when they were new. Just saying.

[myzmak]

Originally Posted by Boss330

And here is another Chris Harris reply on PH to a comment on the new M3/4:

The mans on fire

Hahaha. Right on.