Now that I'm progressing on the track...

[Monkey Throttle]

I put camber plates on my M4 and I Absouletely hated it. It made the street driving of the car so blah. Like a giant dead area in the wheel.
Soon as I reverted back to stock the car came back to life. And it was the Vorshlag or whatever you call them.
Not a great option for a street/track car.

[b_w.]

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

I put camber plates on my M4 and I Absouletely hated it. It made the street driving of the car so blah. Like a giant dead area in the wheel.
Soon as I reverted back to stock the car came back to life. And it was the Vorshlag or whatever you call them.
Not a great option for a street/track car.

Did you get it aligned?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

I put camber plates on my M4 and I Absouletely hated it. It made the street driving of the car so blah. Like a giant dead area in the wheel.
Soon as I reverted back to stock the car came back to life. And it was the Vorshlag or whatever you call them.
Not a great option for a street/track car.

Sounds more like an alignment issue. Camber plates have the opposite effect on handling even for street driving. Poor camber and toe settings w/ and w/o camber plates will produce “blah” handling. Camber plates are absolutely necessary on track to maximize tire life and grip and feedback. They also improve steering feel, not create a dead area, because they’re removing rubber isolation from the steering/handling of the car. People tend to complain about the opposite effect of now having too much NVH with camber plates.

[jbalabas]

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

I put camber plates on my M4 and I Absouletely hated it. It made the street driving of the car so blah. Like a giant dead area in the wheel.
Soon as I reverted back to stock the car came back to life. And it was the Vorshlag or whatever you call them.
Not a great option for a street/track car.

The defintley make the car a little less stable in a straight line but otherwise the car is on rails. I don't think I'd want that camber on a street car but hard to sacrifice grip on track without it.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by jbalabas

The defintley make the car a little less stable in a straight line but otherwise the car is on rails. I don't think I'd want that camber on a street car but hard to sacrifice grip on track without it.

Sounds more like your front toe settings got messed up which happens naturally as you add camber - generally toe has the biggest impact on stability. Small changes to toe can make a very noticeable impact.

[jbalabas]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Sounds more like your front toe settings got messed up which happens naturally as you add camber - generally toe has the biggest impact on stability. Small changes to toe can make a very noticeable impact.

here is my alignment specs. anything you notice or recommend changing? I mainly use the car for track but it does have to drive a long distance to get there.

[aka Hootie]

Below is the recommendation I got from Vorshlag. I started with the dual purpose setting but I now run the track setting. I have no problems on the street or with tire wear (I don't daily my M3).


These are our starting points for any alignment.
These are the baseline alignment numbers we try to use before tweaking them for specific models or modifications:

Dedicated track use:
front camber: -3° to -3.5°
front caster: between 6-7°
front toe: +1/8" total toe out
rear camber: -2°
rear toe: 1/8" total toe in

Dual purpose or street use:
front camber: around -1.5 to -2.5°)
front caster: between 6-7°
front toe: as close to 0 as you can get, to even a little toe in
rear camber: -2°
rear toe: 1/8" total toe in

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by jbalabas

here is my alignment specs. anything you notice or recommend changing? I mainly use the car for track but it does have to drive a long distance to get there.

I’m surprised you’re getting an instability feeling driving in a straight line because you have a decent amount of toe-in on the front. Zero toe, or definitely toe-out, makes things feel a little unstable as well as tramline badly on worn crowned roads. Otherwise, your alignment is a conservative dual-use alignment which seems odd for a car primarily used on track. For a track biased setup but still on the conservative side, I’d recommend less total toe-in (+0.10 deg total) to zero total toe on the front, increase front camber to -3.0 deg, at minimum (wear won’t be impacted, it’s too much toe that ruins tire wear), and a little less total rear toe-in (+0.20 deg total). I’ve found -1.8 deg rear camber works well for me and it improves putting down power by increasing the rear contact patch.

[Monkey Throttle]

Originally Posted by b_w.

Did you get it aligned?

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Sounds more like an alignment issue. Camber plates have the opposite effect on handling even for street driving. Poor camber and toe settings w/ and w/o camber plates will produce “blah” handling. Camber plates are absolutely necessary on track to maximize tire life and grip and feedback. They also improve steering feel, not create a dead area, because they’re removing rubber isolation from the steering/handling of the car. People tend to complain about the opposite effect of now having too much NVH with camber plates.

Originally Posted by jbalabas

The defintley make the car a little less stable in a straight line but otherwise the car is on rails. I don't think I'd want that camber on a street car but hard to sacrifice grip on track without it.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

Sounds more like your front toe settings got messed up which happens naturally as you add camber - generally toe has the biggest impact on stability. Small changes to toe can make a very noticeable impact.

Yes, the guy who installed my camber plates is the guy who also did the alignment. He is a "Bimmerpost" approved installer/alignment guy.
We did the alignment 2 or 3 times and it still felt like crap. It literally sucked all the enjoyment I had driving the car on the street out of it. Yeah, it was a little better on the track but not so much that it was worth decimating its street use.
As soon as I went back to stock camber plates, the car immediately came back to life.

Even spoke with my mechanic about it - He drove it and said, "yup, camber plates. That's what they do."

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by jbalabas

here is my alignment specs. anything you notice or recommend changing? I mainly use the car for track but it does have to drive a long distance to get there.

Looks pretty solid for a dual duty alignment. Mine is similar but with 0 toe and -3.8 front camber and slight toe-in & -2.X (forgot) rear. Admittedly mine leans more track car than dual duty now.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Monkey Throttle

Yes, the guy who installed my camber plates is the guy who also did the alignment. He is a "Bimmerpost" approved installer/alignment guy.
We did the alignment 2 or 3 times and it still felt like crap. It literally sucked all the enjoyment I had driving the car on the street out of it. Yeah, it was a little better on the track but not so much that it was worth decimating its street use.
As soon as I went back to stock camber plates, the car immediately came back to life.

Even spoke with my mechanic about it - He drove it and said, "yup, camber plates. That's what they do."

That still doesn't really jive, camber plates may increase NVH beyond what a person may find acceptable but they wouldn't affect the driving dynamics in the way you're talking about. I bet there was something else going on - but it doesn't really matter because it sounds like you have the car where you like it now.

[jbalabas]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I’m surprised you’re getting an instability feeling driving in a straight line because you have a decent amount of toe-in on the front. Zero toe, or definitely toe-out, makes things feel a little unstable as well as tramline badly on worn crowned roads. Otherwise, your alignment is a conservative dual-use alignment which seems odd for a car primarily used on track. For a track biased setup but still on the conservative side, I’d recommend less total toe-in (+0.10 deg total) to zero total toe on the front, increase front camber to -3.0 deg, at minimum (wear won’t be impacted, it’s too much toe that ruins tire wear), and a little less total rear toe-in (+0.20 deg total). I’ve found -1.8 deg rear camber works well for me and it improves putting down power by increasing the rear contact patch.

Thanks for the info. I',m not getting a lot of instability but you do notice a little front end "looseness". That alignmenty was from lasdt spring and I've gotten more serious about the track so I'll get it a little more track focused when it's back out in the spring.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

That still doesn't really jive, camber plates may increase NVH beyond what a person may find acceptable but they wouldn't affect the driving dynamics in the way you're talking about. I bet there was something else going on - but it doesn't really matter because it sounds like you have the car where you like it now.

I think camber plates and the proper alignment they allow is one of the biggest upgrades you can do for the car. It made a massive difference in times for me. I'm really struggling to figure out how it makes the feel dead.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

I think camber plates and the proper alignment they allow is one of the biggest upgrades you can do for the car. It made a massive difference in times for me. I'm really struggling to figure out how it makes the feel dead.

Agreed. Camber plates should be your first mod even on the stock suspension. Getting camber right leads to improved grip and extended tire life.

Must’ve been an alignment issue(s). For example, too much toe-in will make a car not want to initially turn and handle well which would make it feel lazy and/or dead. Definitely not the camber plate itself, assuming it has no bearing and/or adjustment issues.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Agreed. Camber plates should be your first mod even on the stock suspension. Getting camber right leads to improved grip and extended tire life.
.

This. They are completely essential to track use and very useful with stock suspension as well

[andrewmr]

Originally Posted by speedastray17

After 3 HDPE track days with my 2016 f80, I'm looking for suggestions on how to get more responsiveness from my car on the straights. One thought is getting comfortable with heel and toe in Sport Plus, instead of running it in Sport mode. I'm too spoiled by the automatic rev matching. Any easy boost options? Don't think I'm ready yet for stage 1 mods without swapping my crank hub first. So far the only things I've done to the set-up are Motul600 brake fluid, Hawk Hp+ pads (although I want to get Ferodos next since it's really wearing on my rotors), and Pilot Sport 4s tires. I know that's unrelated to boost, but that's the current status. Thanks in advance for your constructive advice!
https://youtu.be/Yx7CQvOoTe0

I know you said you are looking for more responsiveness on the straights, I'm not really sure what you/that means. Is that your way of saying more acceleration, or ultimately just more speed? When I worked with a student for more speed down a straight it almost always comes back to carrying more speed through the prior turn.

I preferred students learn heel toe on the street. It unsettles the car entering turns when not done correctly. As most students will over brake trying to get the car slowed down trying to heel toe and that's when I suggest saving heel toe for the street.

As for more boost... I'd suggest waiting and getting the fundamentals sorted first. Don't get me wrong, more power is fun, but you can learn so much more and so much faster in a slower car. In a slow car, every MPH lost is gone forever. Learning in a slow car teaches you how to get the most out of each section of the track. Once you get more power you can better put it to use.

The best thing you can do is seat time. Every chance you get, grab an instructor and ask them to get in the car with you and help you with something......

[speedastray17]

Originally Posted by andrewmr

I know you said you are looking for more responsiveness on the straights, I'm not really sure what you/that means. Is that your way of saying more acceleration, or ultimately just more speed? When I worked with a student for more speed down a straight it almost always comes back to carrying more speed through the prior turn.

I preferred students learn heel toe on the street. It unsettles the car entering turns when not done correctly. As most students will over brake trying to get the car slowed down trying to heel toe and that's when I suggest saving heel toe for the street.

As for more boost... I'd suggest waiting and getting the fundamentals sorted first. Don't get me wrong, more power is fun, but you can learn so much more and so much faster in a slower car. In a slow car, every MPH lost is gone forever. Learning in a slow car teaches you how to get the most out of each section of the track. Once you get more power you can better put it to use.

The best thing you can do is seat time. Every chance you get, grab an instructor and ask them to get in the car with you and help you with something......

Thanks for the advice...I'm learning a lot from everyone's perspective with camber plates, etc. Thanks for asking about my acceleration concern. Where I felt it was unresponsive was that I was flooring it coming out of a turn and there wasn't much acceleration. I know it depends on which gear you are in and sport/ sport plus. The instructors were even saying to floor it when I already had my foot to the floor. With someone in the car with me, I know the gear was ok. I was thinking maybe getting newer spark plugs could help marginally.
Also, I only really hear the turbos when I'm in sport plus, so that's why I was thinking heel toe could be my best solution.
P.s. I have loads of respect for people who do heel toe on track..so I plan on practicing beforehand. I'm no maniac..lol

[D_SheerDrivingPleasure]

Originally Posted by speedastray17

P.s. I have loads of respect for people who do heel toe on track..so I plan on practicing beforehand. I'm no maniac..lol

I recommend that you use auto rev match. I insisted on heel toe downshifting for my first 3 seasons but it was a mistake, especially if you want to drive fast which requires threshold braking. Also, it is very hard on the car's drive train unless you get it just right.

We can't all be the guy in penny loafers and white tube socks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU

[speedastray17]

Originally Posted by D_SheerDrivingPleasure

I recommend that you use auto rev match. I insisted on heel toe downshifting for my first 3 seasons but it was a mistake, especially if you want to drive fast which requires threshold braking. Also, it is very hard on the car's drive train unless you get it just right.

We can't all be the guy in penny loafers and white tube socks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU

Hmm, good to know. So basically I need a co-pilot to press my m-mode buttons for me until I'm a legend...
Or have some tuning done

[jbalabas]

Originally Posted by D_SheerDrivingPleasure

I recommend that you use auto rev match. I insisted on heel toe downshifting for my first 3 seasons but it was a mistake, especially if you want to drive fast which requires threshold braking. Also, it is very hard on the car's drive train unless you get it just right.

We can't all be the guy in penny loafers and white tube socks...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU

That video made my day.

[mKilgore]

Originally Posted by speedastray17

Thanks for the advice...I'm learning a lot from everyone's perspective with camber plates, etc. Thanks for asking about my acceleration concern. Where I felt it was unresponsive was that I was flooring it coming out of a turn and there wasn't much acceleration. I know it depends on which gear you are in and sport/ sport plus. The instructors were even saying to floor it when I already had my foot to the floor. With someone in the car with me, I know the gear was ok. I was thinking maybe getting newer spark plugs could help marginally.
Also, I only really hear the turbos when I'm in sport plus, so that's why I was thinking heel toe could be my best solution.
P.s. I have loads of respect for people who do heel toe on track..so I plan on practicing beforehand. I'm no maniac..lol

Based on your comment, i.e., acceleration out of a turn and it seems like it is unresponsive, this makes me suspect that traction control is kicking in and limiting your acceleration. What settings do you run the car in on track? Most importantly, is the "MDM" light on in your cluster?

With traction control on, it can seem like you have your foot to the floor coming out of a corner and the car just won't accelerate like you expect. Once it gets straightened up further out of the corner exit, then it will start accelerating.

[andrewmr]

Originally Posted by mKilgore

Based on your comment, i.e., acceleration out of a turn and it seems like it is unresponsive, this makes me suspect that traction control is kicking in and limiting your acceleration. What settings do you run the car in on track? Most importantly, is the "MDM" light on in your cluster?

With traction control on, it can seem like you have your foot to the floor coming out of a corner and the car just won't accelerate like you expect. Once it gets straightened up further out of the corner exit, then it will start accelerating.

OP, when I saw your post/reply I was/am thinking the same thing.

Do you see a traction control light flicker?

Can you try not flooring the throttle in the turn or coming out of the turn and just try to feather the throttle until the car gets straight and has a better chance of grabbing traction. These cars make big torque number and can overpower the rear tires.

Have you had someone ride with you to see what they think is happening?