GTS Forum Trolling

[mitch32]

Originally Posted by W1TAK

I still don’t understand why these last few GTS examples are not being snapped up. The car is an incredible bargain at anything below $100k ( in my unbiased opinion! ). Basically a new car, very limited production, a blast to own and drive. I couldn’t even think what would ever replace my GTS.

Nothing majorly different, ugly wing and front spolier, no armrest, same HP, same engine, nothing majorly special. Its a rare variant but its not a major departure from the standard M4 or M4 ZCP. When i bought my car the difference was under 10K for a ZCP vs a GTS (of which I ordered the ZCP with the options I wanted) I got a manual which is also another reason. Now my ZCP is worth maybe 30-35K less then the GTS but has 20k mileage, GTS if it had the same mileage it be worth even less probably as no one would want it with 20k miles. The KW CS coilovers are a nice touch thats the only thing that can be argued.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by mitch32

Nothing majorly different, ugly wing and front spolier, no armrest, same HP, same engine, nothing majorly special. Its a rare variant but its not a major departure from the standard M4 or M4 ZCP. When i bought my car the difference was under 10K for a ZCP vs a GTS (of which I ordered the ZCP with the options I wanted) I got a manual which is also another reason. Now my ZCP is worth maybe 30-35K less then the GTS but has 20k mileage, GTS if it had the same mileage it be worth even less probably as no one would want it with 20k miles. The KW CS coilovers are a nice touch thats the only thing that can be argued.

Wow, dude. No offense intended, but you're a combination of inaccurate and dreaming. Do a little more of a deep dive on all of the unique aspects of the GTS. The driving experience is very dissimilar from a base or ZCP, can assure you.

[Darth One]

Originally Posted by W1TAK

I still don’t understand why these last few GTS examples are not being snapped up. The car is an incredible bargain at anything below $100k ( in my unbiased opinion! ). Basically a new car, very limited production, a blast to own and drive. I couldn’t even think what would ever replace my GTS.

Also, the new G8x looks so shitty that you might as well buy the best of the preceding generation if you must have a BMW M car.

[W1TAK]

Originally Posted by mitch32

Nothing majorly different, ugly wing and front spolier, no armrest, same HP, same engine, nothing majorly special. Its a rare variant but its not a major departure from the standard M4 or M4 ZCP. When i bought my car the difference was under 10K for a ZCP vs a GTS (of which I ordered the ZCP with the options I wanted) I got a manual which is also another reason. Now my ZCP is worth maybe 30-35K less then the GTS but has 20k mileage, GTS if it had the same mileage it be worth even less probably as no one would want it with 20k miles. The KW CS coilovers are a nice touch thats the only thing that can be argued.

It’s all personal opinion on looks but I am quite sure the differences go beyond suspension, HP is 500 not 450 as an example, titanium exhaust, roll cage, etc..anyway, there is a guy on here who switched from M4 base to GTS maybe he will comment. Every journey is an event in the GTS and I’ve had a lot of other special cars (GT2, Turbo S etc). It reminds me a lot of my old M3 CSL which I regretted selling even to this day!

[mitch32]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Wow, dude. No offense intended, but you're a combination of inaccurate and dreaming. Do a little more of a deep dive on all of the unique aspects of the GTS. The driving experience is very dissimilar from a base or ZCP, can assure you.

You have a M4 GTS so I would say your biased, but the numbers dont lie. Someone just picked up a GTS with higher mileage on the forum for sub-60k. That tells you something! Performance wise please tell me the differences? The engine is identical, the transmission identical, the underpinning of the car is the same, subframes same, the steering knuckles are beautiful but stock m4 is forged aluminum anyways (geometry wise they look very similar), bolt in cage (BOLT-IN being the keyword), its not like the GTS of past generations. I admire the GTS but it has an ugly wing for most (search the forum!). These special variants are known by their enthusiasts, they know the differences well. In the future maybe it'll go up in value, but right now their values are dropping. Most will op for other track specific cars over a GTS, the GTS is a small-departure from the stock M4. BMW should have done something more, even the CS car sits on dealer showroom floors for months when if those were e92 GTS or e46 CSL they would have been sold before the rubber touch the showroom's floor. Its a reality, facts are facts F82 GTS is worth less then the day it was released. If it were worth more then my argument would be easily falsified, but the prices are lower, why? Cause the vast majority of //M enthusiasts dont care for those subtle differences. Put a e92 GTS or CSL infront of the same people they'd sell their organs for a chance at owning that car.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by mitch32

You have a M4 GTS so I would say your biased, but the numbers dont lie. Someone just picked up a GTS with higher mileage on the forum for sub-60k. That tells you something! Performance wise please tell me the differences? The engine is identical, the transmission identical, the underpinning of the car is the same, subframes same, the steering knuckles are beautiful but stock m4 is forged aluminum anyways (geometry wise they look very similar), bolt in cage (BOLT-IN being the keyword), its not like the GTS of past generations. I admire the GTS but it has an ugly wing for most (search the forum!). These special variants are known by their enthusiasts, they know the differences well. In the future maybe it'll go up in value, but right now their values are dropping. Most will op for other track specific cars over a GTS, the GTS is a small-departure from the stock M4. BMW should have done something more, even the CS car sits on dealer showroom floors for months when if those were e92 GTS or e46 CSL they would have been sold before the rubber touch the showroom's floor. Its a reality, facts are facts F82 GTS is worth less then the day it was released. If it were worth more then my argument would be easily falsified, but the prices are lower, why? Cause the vast majority of //M enthusiasts dont care for those subtle differences. Put a e92 GTS or CSL infront of the same people they'd sell their organs for a chance at owning that car.

Just out of curiosity, how radical of a departure to the stock models do you think the CSL and E92 GTS are? The CSL perhaps more so than the E92 GTS because it pioneered some of the weight savings measrues we see in all M cars, carbon roof, light weight trunk (boot) floor and some other light weight measures. The engine differences are relatively minor considering the platform restrictions. A different intake and bigger cams. Dont get me wrong, as awesome as it is, all engines get more power the same way, more air and fuel in the cylinder to ignite. You achieve that in NA engies differently, you cant just turn up the boost a la F82 GTS.

As far as the E92 GTS goes, it underwent a near identical chassis program: bespoke KW clubsports, BOLT IN cage, bucket seats and bigger brakes. You could argue solidly mounting the subframe was a big deal but in the grand scheme of things its not that big of a deal considering that is the go to mod for and E92 M3 and all M3/M4 cars have solid subframe bushings. As far as the motor goes, again I think the E92 GTS is super duper awesome, but they had to punch it out to 4.4 liters because they were at the stock S65 threshold as far as they were concerned and the only way to get the HP bump they needed more fuel to combust and they had to enlarge the cubic capacity. Again, super duper awesome car and I'd love to have one but in the grand scheme of things, really not that radical of a departure from the stock E92 M3.

If you look at the F82 GTS it underwent just as much R and D as the previous special edition M3's. The water injection system, though not revolutionary, is a massive step on and allows for a super linear power band, relative to an M4 comp or CS, and repeatable performance with the only draw back being having to fill the water tank every now and again.

As far as valuations go, I don't think the GTS is any less desirable than any of the previous generations; they're still selling for silly prices everywhere else in the world. The car was just not received well in the states for whatever reason. If the E92 GTS and E46 CSL were sold in the states I'm not sure the outcome would have been any different (total speculation because we will never know) but the only other bench mark is the E36 LTW, they literally couldn't give those away when they were new, but are silly money now. However, I think car valuations and speculation is ridiculous, if you had some amount of money burning a hole in your pocket then you buy a car to own it and enjoy it, and if you had that same amount of money that you wanted to invest and get a good return then you can have so many more profitable and safer alternatives to invest in.

Moral of the story, I think the GTS is a mega car, at anywhere under $90k a pretty good car for the money and if someone really needs to be the fastest at their local track day go get a good used racecar with some spare bits and bobs thrown in, a tow vehicle and go blow the doors off of people for some of those sweet, sweet bragging rights we all love.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by mitch32

You have a M4 GTS so I would say your biased, but the numbers dont lie. Someone just picked up a GTS with higher mileage on the forum for sub-60k. That tells you something! Performance wise please tell me the differences? The engine is identical, the transmission identical, the underpinning of the car is the same, subframes same, the steering knuckles are beautiful but stock m4 is forged aluminum anyways (geometry wise they look very similar), bolt in cage (BOLT-IN being the keyword), its not like the GTS of past generations. I admire the GTS but it has an ugly wing for most (search the forum!). These special variants are known by their enthusiasts, they know the differences well. In the future maybe it'll go up in value, but right now their values are dropping. Most will op for other track specific cars over a GTS, the GTS is a small-departure from the stock M4. BMW should have done something more, even the CS car sits on dealer showroom floors for months when if those were e92 GTS or e46 CSL they would have been sold before the rubber touch the showroom's floor. Its a reality, facts are facts F82 GTS is worth less then the day it was released. If it were worth more then my argument would be easily falsified, but the prices are lower, why? Cause the vast majority of //M enthusiasts dont care for those subtle differences. Put a e92 GTS or CSL infront of the same people they'd sell their organs for a chance at owning that car.

Bias projection. If I didn’t find the driving experience remarkable, then I wouldn’t say so. I’d sell because I’d prefer to own something else. Because I’m an adult and it’s a car.

I’m going to venture a guess that you have zero seat time in the GTS, yes? Have road and track time in both versions. They’re not close. You believe it's a small departure from the base M4. That's ridiculous.

You’re all over the board, but I wasn’t previously reacting to your pricing concepts. You suggested the GTS is basically a ZCP with Clubsports, which is a stupid, uninformed point of view to be sharing on a GTS subforum. Take some time to Google, understand all of the unique elements, drive one (particularly on track), then conclude.

Sorry to OP for being so far afield. That’s how things go here.

[Tall Tom Cruise]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Bias projection. If I didn’t find the driving experience remarkable, then I wouldn’t say so. I’d sell because I’d prefer to own something else. Because I’m an adult and it’s a car.

I’m going to venture a guess that you have zero seat time in the GTS, yes? Have road and track time in both versions. They’re not close. You believe it's a small departure from the base M4. That's ridiculous.

You’re all over the board, but I wasn’t previously reacting to your pricing concepts. You suggested the GTS is basically a ZCP with Clubsports, which is a stupid, uninformed point of view to be sharing on a GTS subforum. Take some time to Google, understand all of the unique elements, drive one (particularly on track), then conclude.

Sorry to OP for being so far afield. That’s how things go here.

The GTS is a track car that you can drive on the street, while the base M4 is a street car that you can drive on the track. I agree with you that if you haven't driven both - you really don't have any credibility. So far his posts read as if he compared 2 ads on autotrader for both cars and then came to this thread. He's clearly very uninformed on the topic at hand.

BMW should have done something more? Anything more than the GTS and you have the GT4...

If he went and made the same point about the CS, perhaps then he would have somewhat of an argument. Plus he'd actually have some people agreeing with him. The CS is a small departure from the normal M4, with subtle changes. The GTS is a different beast and I don't think anyone with a good sense of vision would call those changes subtle.

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by mitch32

You have a M4 GTS so I would say your biased, but the numbers dont lie. Someone just picked up a GTS with higher mileage on the forum for sub-60k. That tells you something! Performance wise please tell me the differences? The engine is identical, the transmission identical, the underpinning of the car is the same, subframes same, the steering knuckles are beautiful but stock m4 is forged aluminum anyways (geometry wise they look very similar), bolt in cage (BOLT-IN being the keyword), its not like the GTS of past generations. I admire the GTS but it has an ugly wing for most (search the forum!). These special variants are known by their enthusiasts, they know the differences well. In the future maybe it'll go up in value, but right now their values are dropping. Most will op for other track specific cars over a GTS, the GTS is a small-departure from the stock M4. BMW should have done something more, even the CS car sits on dealer showroom floors for months when if those were e92 GTS or e46 CSL they would have been sold before the rubber touch the showroom's floor. Its a reality, facts are facts F82 GTS is worth less then the day it was released. If it were worth more then my argument would be easily falsified, but the prices are lower, why? Cause the vast majority of //M enthusiasts dont care for those subtle differences. Put a e92 GTS or CSL infront of the same people they'd sell their organs for a chance at owning that car.

FYI, the M3 Gts and the e46 CSL did NOT sell well at all when they came out. They did linger on the show room floors for months and had to be heavily discounted.
The M3 Gts is now selling for $180,000 and more in Europe. Never exported to the US.
The M4 gts is already going up in price in Europe and selling for $150,000 to $200,000.
What you are talking about concerning the M4 gts is limited to the US market.
Anyone on this forum currently living in Europe will confirm.
Not saying it will happen here with the Gts , but at $80,000 it is a bargain for what it is and should keep its value at this level for years to come.

[kwalshuncw]

Originally Posted by mitch32

Nothing majorly different, ugly wing and front spolier, no armrest, same HP, same engine, nothing majorly special. Its a rare variant but its not a major departure from the standard M4 or M4 ZCP. When i bought my car the difference was under 10K for a ZCP vs a GTS (of which I ordered the ZCP with the options I wanted) I got a manual which is also another reason. Now my ZCP is worth maybe 30-35K less then the GTS but has 20k mileage, GTS if it had the same mileage it be worth even less probably as no one would want it with 20k miles. The KW CS coilovers are a nice touch thats the only thing that can be argued.

Two of my BMWs in my garage are an e92 ZCP and an M4 GTS. I've owned 2 other F8x cars. The GTS is a completely different machine. The main reason I got rid of my second F8x car was the lack of emotion felt when driving it. The car is numb. It's fast and thats about it.

The e92, while not as fast as the f8x platform, actually has steering feel which is not in many BMWs as of late. The noise the v8 creates makes you not want to stop driving it.

The GTS is a completely different animal than the F82. Driving it 20 feet down the street will tell you this. The ride it rough, the steering it direct, and you can actually feel what is going on this the car. I got rid of my 991 GT3 about 8 months ago and while it doesn't compare in handling due to weight, the experience that the GTS creates outshines anything I've ever driven in the sub 100k range. I picked mine up for 83,750 3 months ago and I don't regret it a bit. While I dont' believe these cars will shoot up in the value in the near future, I see no reason they shouldnt hold in the 70-90 range.

[Ex_Stig]

Originally Posted by mitch32

Nothing majorly different, ugly wing and front spolier, no armrest, same HP, same engine, nothing majorly special. Its a rare variant but its not a major departure from the standard M4 or M4 ZCP. When i bought my car the difference was under 10K for a ZCP vs a GTS (of which I ordered the ZCP with the options I wanted) I got a manual which is also another reason. Now my ZCP is worth maybe 30-35K less then the GTS but has 20k mileage, GTS if it had the same mileage it be worth even less probably as no one would want it with 20k miles. The KW CS coilovers are a nice touch thats the only thing that can be argued.

I stopped reading at the "no arm rest" complaint. LOL People made the same comments about the M3 CS and ya know what, I absolutely love my CS and haven't missed an arm rest even once.

Had I not needed a sedan I would have snapped up a GTS instead of the CS.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by kwalshuncw

Two of my BMWs in my garage are an e92 ZCP and an M4 GTS. I've owned 2 other F8x cars. The GTS is a completely different machine. The main reason I got rid of my second F8x car was the lack of emotion felt when driving it. The car is numb. It's fast and thats about it.

The e92, while not as fast as the f8x platform, actually has steering feel which is not in many BMWs as of late. The noise the v8 creates makes you not want to stop driving it.

The GTS is a completely different animal than the F82. Driving it 20 feet down the street will tell you this. The ride it rough, the steering it direct, and you can actually feel what is going on this the car. I got rid of my 991 GT3 about 8 months ago and while it doesn't compare in handling due to weight, the experience that the GTS creates outshines anything I've ever driven in the sub 100k range. I picked mine up for 83,750 3 months ago and I don't regret it a bit. While I dont' believe these cars will shoot up in the value in the near future, I see no reason they shouldnt hold in the 70-90 range.

I have an identical garage and agree 100 percent with this. I recently sold a GT4, which was fantastic but (flame suit on) I prefer the GTS to the GT4. The GTS is an absolute animal. I also had an F80 Jahre that was DINAN Stage 3. It was absolutely rampant but way down on feel and emotion compared to the GTS. I think a little more tweaking (less rubber, more spherical bearings) in the suspension arms and the feel and feedback would be comparable to anything on the road.