A crisis of faith in the M4

[onatuesday]

Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i

In my case, I guess ignorance is bliss. But just for the record, what I am saying is that the e90/92 M3 is a special car, just an over rated one. The performance delta between the e90/f30 335i and e90/92 M3 for my daily driving and occasional spirited driving purposes is not that significant, IMO.


The f80 will be a different story. I do believe that car will be a significant improvement over the f30 335i, just judging by how disconnected and relatively softer the f30 335i has become. The steering sure does not help. I suspect once the f80 has been released, this will become more and more evident.


Anyway, sorry to side track the thread here. I'll stop now.

Some auto journalists have said that they prefer the e9x 335i to the f30. I certainly agree with that notion as well.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by trinim3

Some auto journalists have said that they prefer the e9x 335i to the f30. I certainly agree with that notion as well.

At the end of the day it's the person driving it that matters. I drive the f30 m sports package a few months ago, I own a 2011 e90 and the handling of the f30 was not a huge difference compared to the e90. It's not something you notice or that it bothers you.... My opinion.

[Savory]

I'm not worried that much. Had a 428i loaner for a weekend, and the chassis was solid. Definitely a great platform for an M car. The major letdown was the steering. If it were artificially boosted anymore you could steer it just by breathing on it. Way too light for my taste.

[M4TW]

The true test will be the new M4 v the RS5, however. For those of you who think this should be an easy win for the M4, keep in mind that the RS5 bested the C63 AMG 507 Edition in a recent R & T comparo.

Originally Posted by ss134

M have apparently developed the new car around the steering. They have thrown everything at it and developed it in conjunction with other components.

In the interview I read they seem very confident that this car will have one of if not the best EPS in the world - inc the new Porsche system.
They are claiming it surpasses the steering in the E9x M3.
Obviously well have to wait and see but I have high hopes.

You've nailed it. I think our faith is not misplaced in BMW's ability to competently set up the suspension, brakes and a decent engine for its flagship performer. It will be the EPS that will likely make or break this car. I'm calling for a win.

Originally Posted by ss134

I had a much different experience to yourself. I found the M3 to feel so much more special than the 335i even in regular spirited driving, not talking about thrashing it around a track, just going out for a fun drive. You don't need to be on a racetrack to feel he difference between these 2 cars- I felt it straight away on my drive home from the dealers, the sound , every corner ( even when not pushing the car) and every turn of the steering wheel.
I think it would be great not to have felt a marked difference between the 2 cars..... i would have been happy with a 335i then and saved myself a lot of cash!

I dumped a lot into my 335, including coilovers. Even at that, the delta between my tuned e90 335 and the M3 could hardly be described as nuanced based on my test drive of the M3. Where my 335 could competently handle corners the M3 felt like it craved them. It was a beautiful driving instrument. Trouble was I had a hard time imagining getting up to 8000 rpm in any kind of traffic and keeping a driver's license. The torque of my 335 was ever present and easily accessible, making the M3 seem gutless by comparison, which of course it wasn't.

Well here we have everything I liked about my tuned 335, with an even wider power band, 18 psi of boost and adequate cooling that is going to be mated with handling prowless of an M3.

I'm still a believer.

[Slow///1]

I have a 2013 S5 with the sport differential option (big difference in dynamics) and I am selling it as we speak for the M3. I bought it because I liked it better than the 335 available at the time. It's a looker and you feel like you're in a nice place when you're in it. It may be slightly sharper than a 435 but it is WANTING when compared to an M.

When the weather isn't terrible I drive a 1M and every time I drive it I am reminded how terrible the S5 steering feels. I am fully confident that the M engineers will have the EPS properly sorted by release and I guarantee the M3/M4 will have much sharper reflexes than a 435/335.

[mact3333]

with respect to what everyone is saying about the M3 when compared to 335, am I the only one who thinks the M3 steering response getting more and more numb with each generation?.

M3's sit up abit too high and needs a 1 cm drop...BMW's in general, seems to have looser/softer steering feel with each generation.

I don't know anything about the new 4 series but I saw one on the street and it sure looked nice...car sits very low and is wide.

[Rambler]

Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i

You said it. I don't "really push" my cars and never track them, which is why I will never truly appreciate the subtleties between the 335i and M3. And that is exactly my point. Most folks like myself will not be able to tell the difference between both cars, yet some will claim to be able to and go along with all the marketing hype associated with ///M cars in general.


Anyway, not trying to stir stuff up here. I hope my comments are not too abrasive. Just my opinion obviously, which should mean very little to anyone else. Venting.

I disagree, most enthusiasts can easily tell the difference, even at 40 mph. I don't think either car needs to be pushed hard to feel how much better the M3 is, especially compared to an XI model. Of all the BMWs I've owned and test driven, the XI models are by far the worst, in my view, in terms of offering any kind driving enjoyment. I preferred the regular 328 to an xdrive 335.

[onatuesday]

I won't deny that RWD is more fun. I love kicking the tail out and I won't deny that BMW has a more connected feel. However, I just don't agree with those that say the new Audis understeer.

Here's a quote from Randy Pobst (pro race car driver) about the RS5 vs the C63AMG. Yes I know slightly off topic and you can say it's a RS5 which is in a different league than the S4/S5 but the technology works the exact same way.

Given how high Randy was on the 507, we figured the less powerful, heavier RS 5 had no shot. We couldn't have been more wrong. Posting a best lap of 1:42.97, it was 0.48 second quicker, but Randy's comments suggested more like 4.8 seconds. "The R8 should be half this good! This car is fantastic. I adore it. It does such a great job utilizing all-wheel-drive traction off the corner, with zero push. You just drive in there and you think it's too early, but you just floor it and you're like, man, I should've gotten on the gas sooner. And no push, no oversteer -- it just drives right out of there, beautifully carving an exit line, using all the power. The gearbox is also very friendly. I just got more confident with carrying speed in and trusting the grip." Indeed, Pobst was able to dive deeper into the corners in the Audi and then carry more speed through the turns. That's where the Benz lost time, albeit not that much. Had it not been for the 507's underhood advantages, which gave it the drop exiting corners and on straightaway Vmax, the RS 5 would have extended the gap.

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2uqIvVR4p

The only people who complain about understeer in the new Audi's with the rear-biased torque vectoring AWD are lazy auto journalists and people who don't know how to adapt their driving styles (no offense to any of you). I have a SCCA national racing license and drive Formula Mazdas regularly (the most neutral car out there) and know how to invoke understeer or oversteer in most any car. We all have different tastes so to each their own. I think in this class of car the word "better" or "worse" in regards to something as subjective as handling is merely a matter of opinion.

[elitex]

Originally Posted by trinim3

I won't deny that RWD is more fun. I love kicking the tail out and I won't deny that BMW has a more connected feel. However, I just don't agree with those that say the new Audis understeer.

Here's a quote from Randy Pobst (pro race car driver) about the RS5 vs the C63AMG. Yes I know slightly off topic and you can say it's a RS5 which is in a different league than the S4/S5 but the technology works the exact same way.

The only people who complain about understeer in the new Audi's with the rear-biased torque vectoring AWD are lazy auto journalists and people who don't know how to adapt their driving styles (no offense to any of you). I have a SCCA national racing license and drive Formula Mazdas regularly (the most neutral car out there) and know how to invoke understeer or oversteer in most any car. We all have different tastes so to each their own. I think in this class of car the word "better" or "worse" in regards to something as subjective as handling is merely a matter of opinion.

They do under steer. Not as much as they used to but they still do, little too much IMO.

Back to M4. I predict that the new M3/M4 will be very very good. FXX chassis is actually very good, they're just sprung a little too soft.

[onatuesday]

Well in regards to the M4, I've been waiting for 3 years for it and I have a deposit on it and can't wait to drive it. I flew all the way out to Houston for the Auto Show to see it in MG which is the color I ordered (and was lucky that the Audi club let me in the show early --- I was able to sit in the M4 and I absolutely loved the feel of the interior).

That being said I was also very excited about the M235i and after reading all the hype I was expecting it to be amazing, and it was simply just above average. I really hope the M4 impresses me a lot more (the interior already does). I also hope that BMWs engineering team is a lot better than their marketing team...

I also think a healthy bit of skepticism perhaps even criticism to BMW and highlighting how good the competition is, is NOT a bad thing as it will hopefully ensure that BMW is at the top of it's game.

[ss134]

Originally Posted by trinim3

Well in regards to the M4, I've been waiting for 3 years for it and I have a deposit on it and can't wait to drive it. I flew all the way out to Houston for the Auto Show to see it in MG which is the color I ordered (and was lucky that the Audi club let me in the show early --- I was able to sit in the M4 and I absolutely loved the feel of the interior).

That being said I was also very excited about the M235i and after reading all the hype I was expecting it to be amazing, and it was simply just above average. I really hope the M4 impresses me a lot more (the interior already does). I also hope that BMWs engineering team is a lot better than their marketing team...

I also think a healthy bit of skepticism perhaps even criticism to BMW and highlighting how good the competition is, is NOT a bad thing as it will hopefully ensure that BMW is at the top of it's game.

I agree about the different brands pushing each other being a plus for all of us who love these type of cars. I'm sure BMW are mindful of how good the next generation of M4 competitors could be and I'm hoping they have thrown everything at this car and left nothing to chance in order to give us a great new M car. I'm hopeful and cannot wait until July to decide for myself.

[basscadet]

An E46 330Ci was a pleasurable car to drive, it was just down on a lot of power compared to the M3.

Unfortunately, since then, you really have to buck up to the M3 to get what I would call "the ultimate driving machine".

The F30 335i with sport package car I drove is frankly a very, very poor car. I would say it is nowhere near as fun to drive as the E92 335i.

This combined with BMW's refusal to compete in the power category against its rivals made me cross the F80 off of my list. I want a 4-door sports car. It seems only Porsche, Mercedes, and Cadillac are truly interested in chasing that market these days. I think Audi's S4 are much improved but I really want RS4-levels of performance but not at such a huge price premium.

[Rupes]

BMW could put all this guessing behind them if they simply allowed for car mags to review the car a couple months before it came out. If your confident in your product, why wouldn't you want to drum up extra hype and excitement prior to a car launch? I'm sure opening orders would have increased dramatically if we had any idea at all what this car was capable of (outside of BMW marketing).

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

Uh oh better change your name to alpine f81!

Actually that would be Austin F82.

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

I'm hoping/expecting the F80 M3 to feel like an entirely different animal.

You and me both.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

Actually that would be Austin F82.

i know you aren't as happy with your car now but I bet you were happy as heck when you were going through the roval with it! when are we going again?! its LOOOONNNNG overdue and we both know it!

[Alpine F31]

Originally Posted by pkim1079

i know you aren't as happy with your car now but I bet you were happy as heck when you were going through the roval with it! when are we going again?! its LOOOONNNNG overdue and we both know it!

True that. But I'm not taking this car back to the track. It's for sale.

[basscadet]

Originally Posted by trinim3

Some auto journalists have said that they prefer the e9x 335i to the f30. I certainly agree with that notion as well.

As do I.

In fact I have not read a single review by anyone that seems to contradict this trend.

[mdss6]

Originally Posted by trinim3

I also think a healthy bit of skepticism perhaps even criticism to BMW and highlighting how good the competition is, is NOT a bad thing as it will hopefully ensure that BMW is at the top of it's game.

True! Though on the flip side I do think BMW and indeed all the auto manufacturers have a heck of a job trying to filter frequently conflicting criticisms and desires. You can find someone advocating for almost anything, or criticizing almost anything, on these pages. Getting the wheat from this chaff must be an art as well as a science. I'm frequently displeased with the results, but respect it is a complex mission.

To make BMW's job easier I think it is more important to make critiques clear (and internally consistent) than to refrain from criticism and just be a cheerleader. I am a BMW fan, which is a big reason why I'm here. But I also hope the forum will help guide BMW in pro-enthusiast directions.

Cheers

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

True that. But I'm not taking this car back to the track. It's for sale.

Really? M235 or waiting for the grand daddy?

[nicknaz]

A lot of the complaints are "Feel", which to me is one step removed from personal preference.

Some journalist likes Audi, I like BMW.

In some ways, we should be thankful for those articles because it is a reminder to BMW not to become complacent, and completely take the side of commuters.

Lastly, every forum member who complains about the "soft" F30 who has posted that their E90 was too "harsh" should look in the mirror if they want someone to cast blame on for the current state of the F30

[M4TW]

In a post that did not survive the Great Purge and the admin's pruning shears. I speculated that BMW might be dummying down its regular offerings, to create room for its new almost-an-///M branded cars like the M235 to compete with the likes of Audi's S brand.

That way you can start with a capable performer with mass-pleasing softer handling, climb up a rung on the ///M enthusiast ladder to some M Sport trim, another to an almost M, like the 235M, or all the way to a full bore actual ///M.

If that is the case, I worry a bit because the handling and mojo of that first entry level BMW is what helps create the lifelong enthusiast who will eventually upgrade to an ///M.