Another engine oil thread. Castrol Edge/Pennzoil/ Liqui Moly?

[IVM3]

Originally Posted by edycol

Motul
Pennzoil
Liqui Moly

In that order.
I would put several other oils ahead of Liqui Moly.

Where would you put Valvoline Euro 5w40 in the ranking above?

[JamesGames]

Originally Posted by ONEof500

Sport vs Xcess for street? Sport correct?

Xcess. Sport for dual track and street (no specifications, as that's not what it was designed for). 5w40 Xcess gen 2 has specifications such as MB 229.5 LL01 (2018 spec), Porsche A40.. VW 502.. etc

Both seem to be good oils.
I'm sure you could run sport just fine for street use as well, but the Xcess is the one that carries the specs.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by ONEof500

Sport vs Xcess for street? Sport correct?

As indicated above, X-Cess Gen2 is much more suitable for street.
Sport for dual use.
Street oils are jack of all trades. They have to do a lot of detergent and dispersant work. Short trips, trips to work, grocery, daycare etc. That is when oxidation happens and regular oils are much better than track or especially racing oils (300V).
Sport line up is for dual users. It only has API SN specification. API is nothing special. It is not stringent at all. But, there is some oxidation control. Reason why this oil works in dual use is that contaminants and moisture will be eliminated during track use. But, if not using it on track, ALWAYS stick to oils with approvals like LL01 and especially MB229.5 (MB approvals are comprehensively most stringent).

[edycol]

Originally Posted by IVM3

Where would you put Valvoline Euro 5w40 in the ranking above?

Before Liqui Moly, after Motul.
Pennzoil is really good, but they are going away with ZDDP. Also, some UOA of PP 5W40 shows some drop in flash point, not sure why.
Valvoline 5W40 European Vehicle has some serious performance numbers. It is relatively low in KV100 (13.1cst) while providing pretty good HTHS of 3.7 (generating high HTHS from high KV100 is easy. Trick is high HTHS and low KV100).
I like that Valvoline posts their performance numbers and do not hide anything. Castrol and Pennzoil are notorious for hiding info (and Pennzoil for generally getting their PDS mixed up).

[IVM3]

Originally Posted by edycol

Before Liqui Moly, after Motul.
Pennzoil is really good, but they are going away with ZDDP. Also, some UOA of PP 5W40 shows some drop in flash point, not sure why.
Valvoline 5W40 European Vehicle has some serious performance numbers. It is relatively low in KV100 (13.1cst) while providing pretty good HTHS of 3.7 (generating high HTHS from high KV100 is easy. Trick is high HTHS and low KV100).
I like that Valvoline posts their performance numbers and do not hide anything. Castrol and Pennzoil are notorious for hiding info (and Pennzoil for generally getting their PDS mixed up).

Thanks, very helpful! Valvoline also seems to be the lowest cost of all these options. The lower cost scared me a bit but it's great to have your technical insight.

[TopJimmy]

edycol when installing bigger Vargas turbos they recommend:
"Engine oil choice with upgraded turbochargers is a very important aspect for longevity, we only recommend 40W oils and higher, with high Zinc, and Phosphorus content, for high shear strength."

If I don't track the car, but do occasionally drag and street race (600WHP on alcohol and race gas), should Motul Xcess 5w40 be my choice year round? ...or do I switch to Motul Specific 5w30 in winter?

Change oil at 5K intervals with Motul street oil, or change at 3K like Red Line?

Just wondering, how often do you recommend to change your filter if doing these extra frequent oil changes?

Also, if I'm at 45K miles how bad is it to have some metal dust on my magnet plug? Maybe my rings or bearings are wearing differently with the increased torque that alcohol fuel mixes provide?

Thanks man for your Guru level help!

[edycol]

Originally Posted by TopJimmy

edycol when installing bigger Vargas turbos they recommend:
"Engine oil choice with upgraded turbochargers is a very important aspect for longevity, we only recommend 40W oils and higher, with high Zinc, and Phosphorus content, for high shear strength."

If I don't track the car, but do occasionally drag and street race (600WHP on alcohol and race gas), should Motul Xcess 5w40 be my choice year round? ...or do I switch to Motul Specific 5w30 in winter?

Change oil at 5K intervals with Motul street oil, or change at 3K like Red Line?

Just wondering, how often do you recommend to change your filter if doing these extra frequent oil changes?

Also, if I'm at 45K miles how bad is it to have some metal dust on my magnet plug? Maybe my rings or bearings are wearing differently with the increased torque that alcohol fuel mixes provide?

Thanks man for your Guru level help!

So, if you are contemplating Redline, just go with it. Forget Motul specific in winter. WIth that power, you want HTHS above 3.5.
Reason why Redline might be good option here is consistency of their base stocks across grade spectrum. All their performance series are having same Ester base stock. If you go 5W40 in summer, you can go 5W30 in winter and be consistent with oil base stock. Your oil coolers will keep previous oil in, so mixing Redline 5W40 and 5W30 is really not tru mixing two different oils.
3k OCI might be overkill. But, considering your modifications, I would go first OCI 3K, pull out sample, and send it to the Blackstone for UOA. Make sure you order TBN and TAN analysis (each is additional $10 I think) and post it here. As long as TAN does not exceed TBN, you can run longer OCI. But, with Redline be aware, first several times they tend to show bit higher wear numbers. Do not be alarmed, as UOA is really not designed to show engine wear. It can point to issue though, but in general, do not pay too much attention to small increases in wear.
As for metal particles, I think UOA is way to go. As I said, UOA is not designed to show engine performance, but excessive wear will show and point to issue. Question is what metal is?

[edycol]

To add:
I was thinking a bit. Your problem is not only sufficient HTHS bcs. power and heat, but fuel dilution too. I would take out sample of current oil you have when you change it and do UOA to see where you are with dilution. I think tuner is recommending W40 oils bcs. of that issue. In case you do have fuel in oil, you might even think to bump grade to W50. I know that a lot of tuners that run on E85 recommend strictly W50 oils bcs. of that issue.

[calubi]

Thanks for the info! I've been running Motul Xcess 5w40 Gen2 for a year now in a dual street/track car. I've stayed with Xcess instead of Sport mainly for the LL-01 approval. Not that it matters much since I'm tuned with pinned hub and CBC, so warranty isn't exactly a concern. I was more worried about what additives may be missing in a non-LL-01 oil since the car does see street time, sometimes short trips.

Would you still recommend Sport over Xcess for a dual purpose car that also sees short trips during the week? Does Sport buy you anything besides the higher HSHT?

[horsepower_and_hounds]

Always have and always will run Mobil 1 and be done with it.......

[edycol]

Originally Posted by calubi

Thanks for the info! I've been running Motul Xcess 5w40 Gen2 for a year now in a dual street/track car. I've stayed with Xcess instead of Sport mainly for the LL-01 approval. Not that it matters much since I'm tuned with pinned hub and CBC, so warranty isn't exactly a concern. I was more worried about what additives may be missing in a non-LL-01 oil since the car does see street time, sometimes short trips.

Would you still recommend Sport over Xcess for a dual purpose car that also sees short trips during the week? Does Sport buy you anything besides the higher HSHT?

I would go definitely Sport, and maybe even 5W50 version.
Reason why Sport does not have any approval is high % of Ester base stock. Esters are notorious oxidizers. Sport version, unlike 300V, has less % of Ester, but still pretty high. That means higher alkalinity and there is no way it will get any approval as it does not meet OCI requirements. So, Sport is mainly street/track oil with very conservative OCI. Maybe you can squeeze out 7.5k OCI on Sport, unlike 300V which would be 3-5K. But, BMW will not approve oil unless it can deliver OCI of 30,000km using Euro Super 95 (Euro VI norm).
HTHS is just part of the story. Ester based oils are more thermally stable and have bit better heat dissipation. You can run 5W50 in summer, and 5W40 in winter. Not that ambient temperature matters in wear protection, but 5W40 will flow better below 100c during cold months when oil needs bit more time to reach operating temperature.
Also, Sport, unlike 300V is API SN. That means that Motul still engineered some oxidation regulation in that oil. That is why Sport is good dual use oil.
300V on other hand is for vehicles that are basically track weapons and do not see a lot of grocery runs, daycare drop offs etc. Many people think that Sport is too expensive as price wise comes close to 300V. But they miss point of what is each oil made for.

[jfritz27]

Edycol, thanks for all your input here

[calubi]

Thanks for the information!

OCI is not much of a consideration for me. I'm much more likely to hit 12 months on the oil than 5k miles. I know, I need to drive it more... And I don't like going more than a few track weekends between changes. Realistically I see 2k mile OCIs through the track season. Perhaps I'm too paranoid with my oil?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by calubi

Thanks for the information!

OCI is not much of a consideration for me. I'm much more likely to hit 12 months on the oil than 5k miles. I know, I need to drive it more... And I don't like going more than a few track weekends between changes. Realistically I see 2k mile OCIs through the track season. Perhaps I'm too paranoid with my oil?

If you are not on a track, you do ocasional drag races, any LL01 is good. There is not much to think here.
If your car is street car, regular oils is way to go. More dispersants and detergents are in it, better cleaning capabilities.
SPort, still being API SN, is OK on the street (LL01 is better in street use). Oils like 300V should be avoided in use like that.

[MisterF80M3]

Just an update to this thread. I ended up going with Liqui Moly Molygen 5w-40 from FCPEuro.

I then realized it is not LL01. I will be switching to Liqui Moly Special Tec 5w-30 for my next oil change, which is LL01 approved.



Has anyone tried using Liqui Moly engine flush?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by MisterF80M3

Just an update to this thread. I ended up going with Liqui Moly Molygen 5w-40 from FCPEuro.

I then realized it is not LL01. I will be switching to Liqui Moly Special Tec 5w-30 for my next oil change, which is LL01 approved.



Has anyone tried using Liqui Moly engine flush?

Never, ever use flush stuff or additives.

[MisterF80M3]

Originally Posted by edycol

Never, ever use flush stuff or additives.

Care to elaborate?

Also, I'm curious to know why you put Liqui Moly on the bottom of your list.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by MisterF80M3

Care to elaborate?

Also, I'm curious to know why you put Liqui Moly on the bottom of your list.

First, if you look in your manual you will see somewhere not to use additives. Let me explain why.
Flush chemicals are used when you have a dead engine, and that is your last option to see if you can bring it from dead. In the healthy engine, flush chemicals can dislodge some deposits that are a normal byproducts of lubrication, and those deposits can get stuck in oil lines and temper lubrication. That is why you should never flush the transmission, but always replenish fluid, meaning replace whatever you released from the transmission.
Additives? All good oils, approved oils, have carefully balanced additives. When you introduce anything to oil, you messed up that balance. Oxidation is messed up (potential sludge), detergent and dispersant properties etc. You actually have no idea how that additive will react with particular oil in your sump. Everything you need for an engine, you have in regular oil.
Liqui Moly? I put them with K&N. In 1990's Liqui Moly was one company that jumped on Group III oils like no other. Another thing they did is ridiculous and shameless marketing. Their oils are mediocre at best, and ANYTHING LL01 or MB229.5 in Wal Mart is actually better than ANYTHING Liqui Moly offers. Their performance numbers are average, their explanation of what is approved and what not is always iffy, and most important performance numbers they always list as a minimum requirement and not what actual performance level of oil is (HTHS is particular). When I worked on oil testing we used a lot of German oils as point of reference and Germans never had engine oils that are on par big names. They really know how to make specialty fluids like brake fluid, steering wheel fluid etc. Liqui Moly was always oil that was one of the easiest to outdo when the company I worked for developed oils. Nothing special, and for money they wanted for their product, one could get much better stuff.
One thing people have to understand is that Mobil1, Castrol, Motul, Pennzoil (Shell), Total, etc. are not big names for no reason. These companies are in motorsport for more than a century, and when one has such know-how it shows. When a company starts to cheap out, they end up like Quaker State or Pennzoil, in ownership of Shell. To think that Liqui Moly has R&D potential like these companies is ridiculous.
WHat you paying is that oversized Made in Germany sign. That is it.

[VChenz]

For those of us who store our cars in the winter.

Is it better to...

1. Put fresh oil before storing. But after storing is it ok to use this oil for 5000km?

2. Store with "old oil" (used in the summer, sub 5000km), then change oil when car comes out of storage?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by VChenz

For those of us who store our cars in the winter.

Is it better to...

1. Put fresh oil before storing. But after storing is it ok to use this oil for 5000km?

2. Store with "old oil" (used in the summer, sub 5000km), then change oil when car comes out of storage?

Change before start driving. Many oils have chemical compounds that attract moisture (Ester-based oils are the worst).

[TopJimmy]

Many thanks again to edycol for the wisdom.


Guys, don't forget your appreciate button.

[VChenz]

Originally Posted by edycol

Change before start driving. Many oils have chemical compounds that attract moisture (Ester-based oils are the worst).

Thank you!