Opinions Wanted: DCT vs Manual in the wake of the rise of EV's?

[AW F31]

Hi All

(Here we go again, I know this is a subject that’s been beaten to death, but curious as to whether the rise of EV’s for daily driving duties has changed peoples opinions.)

Next summer, when the warmer weather returns, I am thinking of picking up a F80 M3 competition.

I’ve always loved the looks, and with the used car market cooling off in the UK now, low mileage examples are now becoming within budget.

With regard to power, I would be keeping it stock, save for a possible remap of the ECU (and GTS TCU if I go for a DCT). When funds allow I’ll probably add some Ohlins TTX dampers and a AP Racing BBK.

My intentions would be that I never sell it, so not concerned with resale differences between manual or DCT.

I’ve driven a DCT, as a family member has one, but a manual has been harder to find to test drive. Dismally few were speced with a manual in the UK. (Of 209 currently for sale, only 4 are manual!)

The DCT, when driving at full chat, is addictive and leaves me with a huge grin on my face.

The only downside I’ve experienced of the DCT is that it can sometimes kangaroo a bit when you’re just pottering about (akin to if you were to abruptly come off the clutch in a manual).

The car would be garaged during the winter and my F31 335d (ZF8) would remain on duty for daily driving and winter duties.

I don’t do many track days, the car would see more use as a weekend toy for blasts down local twisty B-Roads.

Despite having never driven one in manual, the back of my mind is saying that the manual may be more enjoyable for me, as on a twisty B-Road you can’t really get to the silly speeds were the DCT would come into its own, and so I feel the added interface of the manual may be the more enjoyable for my use.

I’m not too concerned with the acceleration advantage of the DCT, as the acceleration game has moved on massively with the introduction of EV’s - a Kia EV6 GT almost beat an Aventador SV over a 1/4 mile in CarWow’s latest video! So whatever one I go with, I’m going in eyes wide open that EV’s will out accelerate me to road legal speeds.

What I’m labouredly getting to, is given my use, should I hold out for a manual in a spec I like, or pick from the plethora of DCT’s available?

Thanks.

[Rbc44]

The question you are asking has no definitive answer because you are the only one who can decide whether you prefer DCT or Manual. Find a manual and test drive it. That is the only way you can see whether you prefer a DCT or a Manual
M3/4.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by Rbc44

The question you are asking has no definitive answer because you are the only one who can decide whether you prefer DCT or Manual. Find a manual and test drive it. That is the only way you can see whether you prefer a DCT or a Manual
M3/4.

I appreciate what your saying, but in the UK, as there is only 4 cars for sale in the whole country that are manual, I don’t have the ability to test drive.

As only 1 of which is with a used car dealer. Who when I contacted said their test drive are limited to a 5 mile journey up and down the local dual carriageway.

The others are private sellers, who won’t even accept proof of full comprehensive insurance for a test drive, only if I transfer the full sale price will they let me drive in a test drive! Their prerogative but not sure how you’re going to sell a car that way 😂.

So I guess what I was saying is I’m leaning towards manual, but being unable to test drive one, do people think it’s a risk worth taking, or play it safe and get the DCT which I know what to expect?

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Like the other poster said its preference. For batshit crazy driving wild downshifts and overall speed, the DCT it god. The manual is butter in this car, but driving a beast like this through 6 gears is not always easy. The car can be driven smooth, but when pushing it, the DCT is god. Now when just normally driving, the manual adds the next level of engagement. i really want a DCT, but the manuals are dying, get them while their hot, before you start shifting gears on an ipad for a little dopamine hit

[Redacre]

If it is going to be a keep-it-forever car hold out for the manual. It is my only regret about my F82. I've driven manuals most of my life so I wanted to try something different and while the DCT is great and dramatically improved my track times I find myself getting bored of the paddles. Never felt that way about any of my manual transmissions.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

Like the other poster said its preference. For batshit crazy driving wild downshifts and overall speed, the DCT it god. The manual is butter in this car, but driving a beast like this through 6 gears is not always easy. The car can be driven smooth, but when pushing it, the DCT is god. Now when just normally driving, the manual adds the next level of engagement. i really want a DCT, but the manuals are dying, get them while their hot, before you start shifting gears on an ipad for a little dopamine hit

Thanks for your insight. My take away experience with the DCT was exactly as you say. It’s certainly a characterful transmission, and bar the slight kangerooing when pottering about, I don’t have a bad word to say about it. (I’m almost talking myself into the DCT now )

What you say about the manual is reassuring. I’ve had a number of manual turbo charged hot hatches in the past, and having not owned a manual for the past 2 years, part of me wants to get a manual F80 just for nostalgia sake, performance deficit be damned.

The only thing holding me back, is whether the manual in the F80 is a joy to use. - My 2015 Fiesta ST200, the manual was a masterpiece in my opinion, the lever action was smooth yet still had a reassuring mechanical feel, you just knew with certainty from tactile feedback what gear you were getting. The manual in my old MK7 GTI on the other hand, not so much, whilst smooth, the gating felt somewhat sloppy and it didn’t fill me with the greatest of confidence.

I guess that what I was trying to ask is that I know in the past people have not had too kind things to say about the manual in the F8X from what I’ve read on the forum.

The more I type about this, I realise now I’ll have to test drive the used car dealers car on the dual carriageway and get a feel for the transmission, even if it’s not on the type of roads I’d usually drive.

Thanks

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by AW F31

Thanks for your insight. My take away experience with the DCT was exactly as you say. It’s certainly a characterful transmission, and bar the slight kangerooing when pottering about, I don’t have a bad word to say about it. (I’m almost talking myself into the DCT now )

What you say about the manual is reassuring. I’ve had a number of manual turbo charged hot hatches in the past, and having not owned a manual for the past 2 years, part of me wants to get a manual F80 just for nostalgia sake, performance deficit be damned.

The only thing holding me back, is whether the manual in the F80 is a joy to use. - My 2015 Fiesta ST200, the manual was a masterpiece in my opinion, the lever action was smooth yet still had a reassuring mechanical feel, you just knew with certainty from tactile feedback what gear you were getting. The manual in my old MK7 GTI on the other hand, not so much, whilst smooth, the gating felt somewhat sloppy and it didn’t fill me with the greatest of confidence.

I guess that what I was trying to ask is that I know in the past people have not had too kind things to say about the manual in the F8X from what I’ve read on the forum.

The more I type about this, I realise now I’ll have to test drive the used car dealers car on the dual carriageway and get a feel for the transmission, even if it’s not on the type of roads I’d usually drive.

Thanks

the people who have bad things to say about it are likely people who are insecure about "paper" 0-60 times and buy their cars to inflate their ego... joking but the manual will be a significant disadvantage when you are starting from a stop. 1-2 is a sloppy shift most of the time and either the clutch or tires will have to suffer. but I mean that's what its all about right.

If you've ever driven a BMW manual in the last 10 years....nothing is different. Shifts like butter, gating could be better, but can be fixed with mods.

the slight blips around the parking garage. being able to rev whenever you want by just disenanaging the clutch, rolling back a tad.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by Redacre

If it is going to be a keep-it-forever car hold out for the manual. It is my only regret about my F82. I've driven manuals most of my life so I wanted to try something different and while the DCT is great and dramatically improved my track times I find myself getting bored of the paddles. Never felt that way about any of my manual transmissions.

Thank you for your input.

You sound like you have a similar car background to myself (my 335d is my first non-manual car). The auto suits the 335d (not that you can get a manual 335d), but I certainly wouldn’t want a manual diesel, as their Rev range is too limited and they’re out of puff by 4k

The DCT in the F8X is a damn sight more exciting than the ZF8 in my 335d, but I have no doubt a lot of that is coming from it’s also attached to a much more exciting engine!

I’m going to book the test drive with the used car dealer, and if I like the manual I’ll hold out for the right manual to come along. The used car dealer’s one is actually in the spec I want (Mineral Grey with Carbon Roof), but the previous owner left it 23k miles to do the first oil service, so it’s unfortunately not a real contender.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

the people who have bad things to say about it are likely people who are insecure about "paper" 0-60 times and buy their cars to inflate their ego... joking but the manual will be a significant disadvantage when you are starting from a stop. 1-2 is a sloppy shift most of the time and either the clutch or tires will have to suffer. but I mean that's what its all about right.

If you've ever driven a BMW manual in the last 10 years....nothing is different. Shifts like butter, gating could be better, but can be fixed with mods.

the slight blips around the parking garage. being able to rev whenever you want by just disenanaging the clutch, rolling back a tad.

Thanks, I felt that was what most people’s underlying issue was with the manual, but the 0-60 is of no concern to me.

Very rarely do I find myself in a traffic light duel, and nowadays with EV’s being such dig monsters, I am always cautious to engage in a traffic light duel anyway. Last thing I want is to be embarrassed by a Kia SUV - if people are interested in 0-60 you should be looking at AWD IMO (RS6 / F90 M5). RWD just can’t compete on that front IMO.

Many moons ago, I used to have a manual 2007 325i e90, yes nowhere near the power to manage, but I never had any issue with the manual on that. - Maybe a minor gripe of when it was cold out, it could be a chore to get it into reverse. But other than that I have fond memories.

Roll on the test drive I think at the used car dealer and wait for a well cared for example.

Thanks

[SYT_Shadow]

Bmw manuals are always quite similar. The dct is a great tranny, but for a 6mt person it makes the car more boring to use dct.

[DocL]

Problem solved. Now you can have an EV with a manual. Booyah!

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...-transmission/

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Bmw manuals are always quite similar. The dct is a great tranny, but for a 6mt person it makes the car more boring to use dct.

That’s good news.

I will have to wait and see if the used car market churns up a suitable manual F80 over the winter months, but nevertheless, if the market dictated I’d have to settle for a DCT it’s still a monster of a gearbox.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by DocL

Problem solved. Now you can have an EV with a manual. Booyah!

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a42165285/lexus-built-an-ev-with-a-fake-manual-transmission/

Haha that’s ridiculous!

I have no interest in EV’s personally. Rather the sound of an ICE and accept I lose the Traffic light Grand Prix.

The UK’s investment in charging stations outside of London has been poor also, so the infrastructure is just not there to support them here.

[Humdizzle]

i sold my f80 manual for a f87 dct.

it really depends where you are coming from. If you've experienced the shifter in something like an s2000, 911, toyota 86, civic si / type r... the f8x manual doesn't feel as good. After getting my gt3 i didn't enjoy shifting my f80, it just felt weird and non-intuitive. I had to concentrate on the 1-2 shift to make it smooth without the rev match on. and that became annoying. you can try coding rev match different modes, but i wanted rev match in efficient and have it off in sport. I dont drive in sport+ with manual, it is wayyy to touchy and the car bucks alot at low speed.

like you mentioned when driving hard the dct wins because its a steady stream of power. when you shift the manual the turbo slows down and you need to build the boost back up. you get a rubber band effect. there are fixes for the bmw shift feel. autosolutions ssk, ultimate clutch pedal, cdv delete.

if i were you thats what i'd do... since you already have an auto daily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_S6-53_transmission

^ that is the transmission. So you can drive a pre-lci 135i / 335i or G80 M3 and it will give you a similar feel to the f80's manual.

[NickyC]

As a 6MT person who owned nothing but manuals for nearly 30 years (even learning to drive on a stick), I actually enjoy the DCT. I never allow the car to shift itself if I can help it. I do all upshifts manually, and crack off the downshifts 99% of the time with the paddles as well. Hearing the pops and crackles with the MPE on downshifts never gets boring, and by using the paddles at all times I still feel engaged with the car.

I’d never own a car that was strictly auto with no paddles, but by manually selecting gears at all times with the paddles I have a blast. If I could, I would force the car to make you select the downshifts or else it would stall. However I’m so tuned in now I rarely miss a manual downshift with the DCT. I love it.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

the people who have bad things to say about it are likely people who are insecure about "paper" 0-60 times and buy their cars to inflate their ego... joking but the manual will be a significant disadvantage when you are starting from a stop. 1-2 is a sloppy shift most of the time and either the clutch or tires will have to suffer. but I mean that's what its all about right.

If you've ever driven a BMW manual in the last 10 years....nothing is different. Shifts like butter, gating could be better, but can be fixed with mods.

the slight blips around the parking garage. being able to rev whenever you want by just disenanaging the clutch, rolling back a tad.

G35 - could you give some insight as to the mods you refer to people making to the manual to improve the gating feel?

If I could source a manual, I would be tempted to fit a CAE Ultra Shifter (or the RTD Motorsport Shifter), but if there is a less expensive way to proceed I’m open to suggestions

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AW F31

G35 - could you give some insight as to the mods you refer to people making to the manual to improve the gating feel?

If I could source a manual, I would be tempted to fit a CAE Ultra Shifter (or the RTD Motorsport Shifter), but if there is a less expensive way to proceed I’m open to suggestions

The autosolutions ssk. The best in the business since the e46 m3 stone age.
I don't even have a g8x 6mt yet but am already on the list to get the ssk. I hope this helps exain how awesome it is

I've raced two several m3s with cae shifters. They look really cool, but I prefer the autosolutions ssk

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i sold my f80 manual for a f87 dct.

it really depends where you are coming from. If you've experienced the shifter in something like an s2000, 911, toyota 86, civic si / type r... the f8x manual doesn't feel as good. After getting my gt3 i didn't enjoy shifting my f80, it just felt weird and non-intuitive. I had to concentrate on the 1-2 shift to make it smooth without the rev match on. and that became annoying. you can try coding rev match different modes, but i wanted rev match in efficient and have it off in sport. I dont drive in sport+ with manual, it is wayyy to touchy and the car bucks alot at low speed.

like you mentioned when driving hard the dct wins because its a steady stream of power. when you shift the manual the turbo slows down and you need to build the boost back up. you get a rubber band effect. there are fixes for the bmw shift feel. autosolutions ssk, ultimate clutch pedal, cdv delete.

if i were you thats what i'd do... since you already have an auto daily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_S6-53_transmission

^ that is the transmission. So you can drive a pre-lci 135i / 335i or G80 M3 and it will give you a similar feel to the f80's manual.

I have never driven any of the above, but what I can say from my own limited experience from my own manual cars I’ve owned, if I had to rank on shifter feel would be as below from worst to best:

2005 Nissan Almera (first car) by far the worst, cheap economy car so wasn’t expecting anything. It was very frugal though and cheap to insure so excellent first car.

2018 MK7 Golf GTI - how VW put out a hot hatch with this mushy of a manual is beyond me, it only just slightly edges out my old almera. It was a PCP deal I couldn’t resist and I put the deposit down without test driving, and will never make that mistake again.

2007 E90 325i - This followed my 2015 Fiesta ST. Manual was not as good in that as the ST, but I still enjoyed it. If I had the luxury of having both on the drive at the time, I would have likely tired of the 325i, like you did with your F80, but in isolation, perfectly acceptable for me.

2015 Fiesta ST - Got my first proper job and dipped my foot into world of hot hatches. Best manual I’ve driven for reason I mentioned above.

The saving grace I think for me will be that this F80 will be my only manual on the drive, and I certainly don’t have the money for the GT3 (very nice car btw, maybe someday… I hope).

Thanks for the info on the transmission being shared across so many generations, I’ll call the local BMW Dealer and see if they have a Manual G80 demonstrator available for test drive.

I personally quite like the rubber banding of a manual turbo charged car, used to get it quite a lot in the Fiesta ST, but I grew accustomed to it and kind of enjoyed feeling the wave as the torque came back in.

[AW F31]

Thanks for your insight. I fully agree with this.

I have no issues with the DCT, in fact I very much enjoy its relentless surge of acceleration as it fires home the gear change almost instantaneously.

Hilariously, the overrun of the DCT does slightly worry me, as our lunatic government is think of bringing cameras into city centres that measure the DB of cars and issue a ticket if you exceed a threshold! All supposedly in the name of combatting sound pollution. They’re currently trialling this in a couple of cities, with intentions to possibly expand its use . I doubt the overrun would be enough to exceed the threshold but I wouldn’t want to find out. - In the UK it seems the lunatics have taken over the asylum!

With the roads I have locally, and my very specific intended use, where you’re really lucky if you see more than a single gear change in between bends, two changes if your lucky. I have a small voice at the back of my head that the manual may suit my needs better.

I will test drive a G80 manual as advised above and see how I get in with the manual.

[AW F31]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The autosolutions ssk. The best in the business since the e46 m3 stone age.
I don't even have a g8x 6mt yet but am already on the list to get the ssk. I hope this helps exain how awesome it is

I've raced two several m3s with cae shifters. They look really cool, but I prefer the autosolutions ssk

Oh man, just seen a quick YouTube video by “Arclight Addicts” just slowing the movement around the gating. That AutoSolutions SSK looks and sounds seriously slick!
Love how it keeps the OEM shifter too. New favourite. Thanks for highlighting that!

[Kilabyte]

I like driving a manual so I bought one, I can't answer this for you.

[gerri]

Originally Posted by AW F31

The only downside I’ve experienced of the DCT is that it can sometimes kangaroo a bit when you’re just pottering about (akin to if you were to abruptly come off the clutch in a manual).

This is known, there are many discussions on the subject but, if you drive it for some time it can happen to you a couple of times but not the third time.