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      09-16-2021, 04:22 PM   #111
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Not really. Porsche still offers high performance visceral cars.

BMW is going for the masses and diluting themselves. They don't really care about enthusiasts the way they used to.
Sure at the top end their GT cars are insanely visceral but their regular cars have also suffered a similar fate as BMWs. I've spent a decent amount of time in a 992 4S lately and it has next level performance, but it's also more insulated and less visceral than prior generations as it is so competent and well setup - the performance is more easily digestible that way because it has to be. It does not have that raw feeling that even as recent as the 997s that I've been in have. Ironically, when the owner of the 4S rides in my car he usually comments that mine feels more like a racecar (thanks F8X for being backbreakingly stiff) and that the acceleration feels more visceral even though we aren't going quite as fast as the 4S. And to be completely fair with that statement, I do have some suspension mods and an exhaust that can function as a straight pipe when I want it to, so I've definitely added some "rawness" in.

Absolutely agree with your statement on BMW though
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      09-16-2021, 04:35 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
Not really. Porsche still offers high performance visceral cars.

BMW is going for the masses and diluting themselves. They don't really care about enthusiasts the way they used to.
Sure at the top end their GT cars are insanely visceral but their regular cars have also suffered a similar fate as BMWs. I've spent a decent amount of time in a 992 4S lately and it has next level performance, but it's also more insulated and less visceral than prior generations as it is so competent and well setup - the performance is more easily digestible that way because it has to be. It does not have that raw feeling that even as recent as the 997s that I've been in have. Ironically, when the owner of the 4S rides in my car he usually comments that mine feels more like a racecar (thanks F8X for being backbreakingly stiff) and that the acceleration feels more visceral even though we aren't going quite as fast as the 4S. And to be completely fair with that statement, I do have some suspension mods and an exhaust that can function as a straight pipe when I want it to, so I've definitely added some "rawness" in.

Absolutely agree with your statement on BMW though
Yeah same thing on my M2C. Just at 40 MPH the car makes lot of exhaust noises/burbles and feels planted, quite raw and stiff for a modern M car. It looks like there is a lot going on even at the lower limits. Now when I jump into my G series X5, that thing is so smooth and suddenly will reach 70 MPH without giving any feel to the driver, no exhaust, numb steering and no visceral feel but extremely smooth.
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      09-16-2021, 06:07 PM   #113
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What's lacking in car these days is visceral feel and balance which the M2 brings to the table.
That's just the way that cars are going nowadays. Things are more insulated and less visceral - which ultimately is meant to improve driver confidence and result in better performance. But feel and the experience is lost in translation. Chalk it up to the fact that cars in general are just so fast these days that they have to be made numb so people can not only process the performance but be able to safely and adequately handle it.
Not really. Porsche still offers high performance visceral cars.

BMW is going for the masses and diluting themselves. They don't really care about enthusiasts the way they used to.
BMW doesn't seem like they've totally forgotten enthusiasts though - they still offer manual transmissions, started offering mechanical LSDs on non-M cars (which hasn't been a thing since the E36 days), released the M2, they have the CS lines, and have continually offered improved performance through the ZHP models (which wasn't even a thing until the E46 days). They certainly are not golden lambs but they're not as bad as other companies IMO
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      09-16-2021, 06:11 PM   #114
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
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Originally Posted by RugbyBro View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckybadger View Post
What's lacking in car these days is visceral feel and balance which the M2 brings to the table.
That's just the way that cars are going nowadays. Things are more insulated and less visceral - which ultimately is meant to improve driver confidence and result in better performance. But feel and the experience is lost in translation. Chalk it up to the fact that cars in general are just so fast these days that they have to be made numb so people can not only process the performance but be able to safely and adequately handle it.
Not really. Porsche still offers high performance visceral cars.

BMW is going for the masses and diluting themselves. They don't really care about enthusiasts the way they used to.
BMW doesn't seem like they've totally forgotten enthusiasts though - they still offer manual transmissions, started offering mechanical LSDs on non-M cars (which hasn't been a thing since the E36 days), released the M2, they have the CS lines, and have continually offered improved performance through the ZHP models (which wasn't even a thing until the E46 days). They certainly are golden lambs but they're not as bad as other companies IMO
Only the M2C and CS are enthusiast oriented with some level of visceral experience out of the box.

Rest all M cars are fast but they lack the classic bmw experience, yes there are manuals out there which helps but overall bmw brand has been disconnected to the driver (exception M2 series). I'm referring to traditional and regular BMWs that everyone drives and the standard M cars.

With cars like the M3 and M5 you have to go for their CS versions to get visceral experience. It looks like bmw has to make many changes to their bigger cars over the course of their cycle to bring that driver oriented feeling.
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      09-17-2021, 08:02 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F82KPowers View Post
BMW doesn't seem like they've totally forgotten enthusiasts though - they still offer manual transmissions, started offering mechanical LSDs on non-M cars (which hasn't been a thing since the E36 days), released the M2, they have the CS lines, and have continually offered improved performance through the ZHP models (which wasn't even a thing until the E46 days). They certainly are not golden lambs but they're not as bad as other companies IMO
*ahem ahem* mercedes
lol

the 43 and 53 variations have to be the worst offenders of these so-called 'in-between' trims.
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      09-17-2021, 10:11 PM   #116
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Only the M2C and CS are enthusiast oriented with some level of visceral experience out of the box.
Have to say I disagree with this... M2C to me feels like a smaller M3/4 - it's just a slightly higher concentration of the M3/4 feel due to wheelbase but fundamentally doesn't give feedback any different to its older brothers. What it gains in perceived agility, it loses in power delivery. Two very different but equally important contributing aspects to "viscerality".

It will also depend on how you define enthusiast... if you're talking enthusiasts who only drive within or close to the legal limits and on the road, then sure the wheelbase is just about the only thing you can enjoy which in itself is a strong argument. If you're talking about enthusiasts who like to drive their cars hard in a controlled environment then M3/4 presents itself as a better option if for no other reason (which there are other reasons) because you can fit larger tires for more mechanical grip and the wheel base produces more stability at speed given M2C essentially weighs the same. The fundamental sensation of speed, and ultimately what defines their "viscerality", between the two is not that different IMO. And I'm not trying to turn this into an M2 vs M3/4 discussion, I'm just trying to point out either they're both visceral or they both aren't because they're cut from the exact same cloth.

As for CS, I haven't really spent time in one where I could form an opinion - test drives don't really count as experience.
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      09-17-2021, 10:17 PM   #117
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the ZHP models (which wasn't even a thing until the E46 days). They certainly are not golden lambs but they're not as bad as other companies IMO
Soooo I had a ZHP, and my conclusion on modern ZHPs was that they weren't like the ZHPs of old. They just aren't special enough because they're either just a tick the box of some options or in my case with the 435i ZHP, just the slate of M Performance parts as pre-selected. Nothing about it was exclusive like the E46 ZHPs aside from being branded ZHP from factory. But to your point BMW still offers SOMETHING to the market which is a good thing so I'll drink to that
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