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      07-06-2018, 07:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax85 View Post
So I have a macan gts and a 991.2s with 4ws
.. I had a 2018 m3 zcp with m perf suspension.

My observations:
The macan gts can handle well for an suv... for an suv.. it’s not even in the same league as the m3.. the steering is muted and the pdk programing is junk.. it hesitates during gearshifts even in its fastest setting.

Now my impression of the m3 vs the 991.2s... the 991.2s is in a different league in terms of handling.. it’s smaller more nimble and most importantly able to put the power down better. In terms of straight line speed. From a stop the 991.2s is bonkers fast, no contest. From a roll however, I’ll contend it’s a drivers race.. I have raced a close buddy from a roll and it’s even. A base 991.2 will lose to an m3 from a roll pretty badly. This is both having dual clutches. Mag racing is on thing but I have actually had these cars and have ran them.

The m3 and 911 are brilliant in their own rights ., just meant for difference purposes. I moved on from my m3 because it wasn’t my daily and I wanted more of a sports car. I still love it and miss it.
Some odd issues you have on your Macan GTS because mine is spot on and is a much better transmission and tuning than DCT, no question (Ive had a lot experience owning and driving with DCT and think it is absolute garbage compared to PDK). There’s a reason why PDK is always heralded as the best dual clutch whereas no one has ever said that about dct. The transmission in the 911s and the GT cars just ups the ante a bit more each level. That’s why I think the GTS is such a great SUV, it does it so wel you can hardly believe you’re in an SUV along with the other aspects that just make it a very fun car to drive.

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 07-06-2018 at 08:08 AM..
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      07-06-2018, 10:47 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Some odd issues you have on your Macan GTS because mine is spot on and is a much better transmission and tuning than DCT, no question (Ive had a lot experience owning and driving with DCT and think it is absolute garbage compared to PDK). There’s a reason why PDK is always heralded as the best dual clutch whereas no one has ever said that about dct. The transmission in the 911s and the GT cars just ups the ante a bit more each level. That’s why I think the GTS is such a great SUV, it does it so wel you can hardly believe you’re in an SUV along with the other aspects that just make it a very fun car to drive.
PDK in 911 and PDK in Macan are very different things and share basically a name. The latter is derived from a VW/Audi box and made in a VW plant; basically the same one used in A4/S4/A5/S5 etc. Not saying it is a bad gearbox, just can't lump all PDK's together. In my experience they (the Audi/VW units) have a better creep mode than BMW's m-DCT, and mimic a standard automatic a bit more. This also means they don't shift as hard or as fast.

That Porsche decided to go with this transmission makes the Macan much more a hot hatch than an SUV. Towing capability is severely limited, and off road performance is also compromised.

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      07-06-2018, 10:59 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by blschaefer1 View Post
PDK in 911 and PDK in Macan are very different things and share basically a name. The latter is derived from a VW/Audi box and made in a VW plant; basically the same one used in A4/S4/A5/S5 etc. Not saying it is a bad gearbox, just can't lump all PDK's together. In my experience they have a better creep mode than BMW's m-DCT, and mimic a standard automatic a bit more. This also means they don't shift as hard or as fast.

That Porsche decided to go with this transmission makes the Macan much more a hot hatch than an SUV. Towing capability is severely limited, and off road performance is also compromised.
I believe Porsche stated it is not an audi gearbox, so I am not sure what is true there. I was told by Porsche themselves it was a Panamera derivative.

PDK overall is a much better tuned transmission and also does in fact shift faster, though not as clunky (or hard) in doing so. PDK in a 911 and especially the GT3 are much more responsive as well in paddle engagement. And if you’re comparing auto mode, not the slightest of comparisons to be made there.

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 07-06-2018 at 11:08 AM..
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      07-06-2018, 11:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blschaefer1 View Post
.

That Porsche decided to go with this transmission makes the Macan much more a hot hatch than an SUV. Towing capability is severely limited, and off road performance is also compromised.
Except, isnt it more of a "warm" hatch than a hot hatch. quick search is yielding 99mph trap speed for a '17 macan gts, and a starting price of $69k

So basically, paying over m3 price to get 328 level of performance. That's such a bad joke, wow. Need to REALLY love the Porsche crest to buy into that value proposition.

But great work by Porsche marketing that people on this thread seem to genuinely believe it should be discussed as a comparable to f80.
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      07-06-2018, 11:10 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Except, isnt it more of a "warm" hatch than a hot hatch. quick search is yielding 99mph trap speed for a '17 macan gts, and a starting price of $69k

So basically, paying over m3 price to get 328 level of performance. That's such a bad joke, wow. Need to REALLY love the Porsche crest to buy into that value proposition.

But great work by Porsche marketing that people on this thread seem to genuinely believe it should be discussed as a comparable to f80.
Except that many people who used to be M drivers are moving to the Macan platform. Seems to be doing its job well. Thankfully for Bmw, Mercedes and etc Porsche hasn’t launched a mid size sedan or coupe yet...
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      07-06-2018, 11:18 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I believe Porsche stated it is not an audi gearbox, so I am not sure what is true there. I was told by Porsche themselves it was a Panamera derivative.

PDK overall is a much better tuned transmission and also does in fact shift faster, though not as clunky (or hard) in doing so. PDK in a 911 and especially the GT3 are much more responsive as well in paddle engagement. And if you’re comparing auto mode, not the slightest of comparisons to be made there.
PDK in Macan is derived from an Audi DL501 box. Panamera uses completely different hardware. Those are the facts.

I agree PDK in 911's are fantastic, BTW. Just not the same as Macan.
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      07-06-2018, 11:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Except that many people who used to be M drivers are moving to the Macan platform. Seems to be doing its job well. Thankfully for Bmw, Mercedes and etc Porsche hasn’t launched a mid size sedan or coupe yet...
Lots of switching based on... this thread?

Regardless, I'm glad they found a good car that makes them happy. Not everyone needs the performance level of M3 and some might even find it intimidating.

A much lower power awd car with high seating position like Macan is a much better commuter for a casual user than m3 with high power and rwd
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      07-06-2018, 12:42 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Except, isnt it more of a "warm" hatch than a hot hatch. quick search is yielding 99mph trap speed for a '17 macan gts, and a starting price of $69k

So basically, paying over m3 price to get 328 level of performance. That's such a bad joke, wow. Need to REALLY love the Porsche crest to buy into that value proposition.

But great work by Porsche marketing that people on this thread seem to genuinely believe it should be discussed as a comparable to f80.
Yes, and think about this...Golf R traps about 105, offers better driving dynamics, fuel economy, and similar utility for about HALF the money of a Macan GTS. What it lacks is the Porsche crest.

Funny thing is the base four cylinder Macan is the best seller and would fare much worse vs Golf R. There are many people apparently willing to pay huge $$ for that crest. Great marketing indeed.
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      07-06-2018, 02:38 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Lots of switching based on... this thread?

Regardless, I'm glad they found a good car that makes them happy. Not everyone needs the performance level of M3 and some might even find it intimidating.

A much lower power awd car with high seating position like Macan is a much better commuter for a casual user than m3 with high power and rwd
99 mph trap speed is on all seasons, 102/103 on summers, guess you didn’t see that. It’s plenty fast for daily driving and the interior is much nicer and of higher quality (ours has the leather interior).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...irst-test/amp/

No one needs the performance level of anything 400 hp or more.

My comment was how many people I know (friends, family, coworkers) and those on the Macan forum who either went M to Macan or skipped the M3/4 altogether for one.
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      07-06-2018, 02:42 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blschaefer1 View Post
Yes, and think about this...Golf R traps about 105, offers better driving dynamics, fuel economy, and similar utility for about HALF the money of a Macan GTS. What it lacks is the Porsche crest.

Funny thing is the base four cylinder Macan is the best seller and would fare much worse vs Golf R. There are many people apparently willing to pay huge $$ for that crest. Great marketing indeed.
And a Mustang GT or Camaro for 40k offer the same performance, dynamics, and handling by and large as an M3/4 for 20-30k less. Or for 65k you can buy a ZL1 which wipes the floor with them. Does that mean you should be getting one?
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      07-06-2018, 03:46 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by MaynardZed View Post
They'd have to be some very very small children with no legs, to fit in the rear seats of a 911
My kids were 5' and 5'6" few years back and we went on 1.5 hrs road trip fine. i wouldnt do it more than 2 hrs.

Worse case I just put one of them in the frunk as it fits
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      07-06-2018, 04:02 PM   #34
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I have a 991.2 C2 and my wife has a m4 ZCP, both are great cars, the 911 is more sports car focused in my opinion than the m4, of course as it’s apples to oranges. I will tell you the m4 is quick but it’s a different feel. The 911 is more tactical is feel, I think the PDK is better than the DCT, but they were never designed to go head to head. I got the Porsche as I have always wanted one but t was $37k more than the similarity equipped M4, ouch is right, but it is what it is. Both are great cars, the M3/4 is the best bang for the buck. Buy the 911 if you want a 911, the m4 is awesome but it’s never going to be a 911. I am glad we have both, best of both worlds.
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      07-06-2018, 04:38 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
99 mph trap speed is on all seasons, 102/103 on summers, guess you didn’t see that. It’s plenty fast for daily driving and the interior is much nicer and of higher quality (ours has the leather interior).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...irst-test/amp/

No one needs the performance level of anything 400 hp or more.

My comment was how many people I know (friends, family, coworkers) and those on the Macan forum who either went M to Macan or skipped the M3/4 altogether for one.
99 or 103 trap speed all rounds to slow when we are discussing $65+k cars.

I shouldn't be coming down too hard on macan gts. I just finished a road trip in wife's x135 and so I can see the appeal of a small SUV that traps in the 99-103mph range. Definitely a nice daily; not at all an m3 replacement.

My wife turned down taking over f80 m3 as her daily, saying it had way too much power. I didn't think such a thing was a possibility but I guess normal people think different.
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      07-06-2018, 06:00 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
And a Mustang GT or Camaro for 40k offer the same performance, dynamics, and handling by and large as an M3/4 for 20-30k less. Or for 65k you can buy a ZL1 which wipes the floor with them. Does that mean you should be getting one?
Golf R offers similar fit, finish, and refinement to Macan. The '18's with virtual cockpit are amazing. Even though it is $40k+ for a Golf, I still think it is a reasonable value all things considered.

The analogies you present above are very different from an F80 in that regard.

Just can't see the value proposition in the Macan, or Cayenne for that matter.
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      07-06-2018, 08:55 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Except that many people who used to be M drivers are moving to the Macan platform. Seems to be doing its job well. Thankfully for Bmw, Mercedes and etc Porsche hasn’t launched a mid size sedan or coupe yet...
What happened to the RS3?
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      07-06-2018, 09:37 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by blschaefer1 View Post
PDK in Macan is derived from an Audi DL501 box. Panamera uses completely different hardware. Those are the facts.
source? i was told the exact opposite.
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      07-06-2018, 09:50 PM   #39
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i'm amused that all the threads regarding "F8x vs. Porsches that are not Macans" always end up in a debate about the Macan

let's get this out of the way - the F8x does beat all the Macans in objective performance criteria. maybe the Turbo PP will change things but i can never find one of those to drive.

people do cross-shop Macans and M3's - i was one of them, and it looks like there's a few on this thread - and it is possible for someone to pick a Macan over an M3. although presumably the guys who are obsessed with trap speeds would buy the M3 and never look back.

with all that said, some of the statements here go a bit too far. this is the first i've ever heard of the PDK being referred to as "junk", for example.
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      07-06-2018, 10:24 PM   #40
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- and it is possible for someone to pick a Macan over an M3. although presumably the guys who are obsessed with trap speeds would buy the M3 and never look back.
.
Don't forget tow rating. That's a pretty key SUV stat to obsess over.

Q7 is a good example of a German SUV that's super interesting. 98mph trap speed, 3 rows, 7700lb row rating, $56k starting price. Winning!
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      07-06-2018, 10:33 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
- and it is possible for someone to pick a Macan over an M3. although presumably the guys who are obsessed with trap speeds would buy the M3 and never look back.
.
Don't forget tow rating. That's a pretty key SUV stat to obsess over.

Q7 is a good example of a German SUV that's super interesting. 98mph trap speed, 3 rows, 7700lb row rating, $56k starting price. Winning!
I totally believe you. Since trap speed seems to have become the be-all-end-all measure of a performance car while I wasn't looking, maybe tow rating has become its counterpart for SUVs at the same time...
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      07-06-2018, 10:34 PM   #42
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I will throw in my 2 cents, I own a 2015 F80 with 18k miles that I purchased 4 years ago (July 2014). Several weeks ago I test drove a certified 2017 911S and 2017 911 4. The dealership allowed me and the wife to test drive both vehicles by ourselves. We felt that our F80 felt quicker then both 911's. I posted on another thread and was advised that the acceleration of the 911 is more linear and that both aforementioned 911's are quicker then my F80. Interesting though when watching Nick Murray (he owned a M4 and now a 911 C4S 991.2) on YouTube and he did a rolling drag race pitting his 911 C4S against a M4. The end result the 911 4S lost. Here is the link:
. I have also read other car publications online showing the 0-60 time for a 2017 911 S posting a time of 3.6 seconds.

I respect the Porsche racing heritage and owning a 911 is a vehicle that is on my bucket list. With that being said I am having a hard time parting with over 100k for a 911S. Affording the vehicle is not an issue but after test driving the aforementioned 911's I have a new found respect for my F80.

I respect everyone's opinion but our F80 is comfortable for me and the wife and quick. When we did test drive the 911's she said she was not comfortable and would not like to drive in the 911 from San Diego County to Las Vegas. I have to agree the F80 for us (we are in our 50's) is more comfortable then the 911. But I still want one (911) in my garage.

Truth be told I ride my bikes (2016 BMW R1200RT and 2018 BMW R1200GSA) more then I drive my F80.
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      07-07-2018, 09:18 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by blschaefer1 View Post
Golf R offers similar fit, finish, and refinement to Macan. The '18's with virtual cockpit are amazing. Even though it is $40k+ for a Golf, I still think it is a reasonable value all things considered.

The analogies you present above are very different from an F80 in that regard.

Just can't see the value proposition in the Macan, or Cayenne for that matter.
I disagree. The M3/4 are no better in that regard than any of those cars from a by and large perspective, whereas a Macan is certainly better built with better quality all around. I would say the Golf R is similar to an m3/4 in overall quality. My M3 was full leather and it still felt cheap and rattled and creaked to no end. The M4 was even worse. My Macan GTS with leather interior is much more refined and well put together. There is no comparison there from someone who has owned both.
I certainly do see the value proposition in the Macan and the Cayenne, and seems many others do for some reason or another given their sales volume.

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      07-07-2018, 09:26 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Egrunt View Post
I will throw in my 2 cents, I own a 2015 F80 with 18k miles that I purchased 4 years ago (July 2014). Several weeks ago I test drove a certified 2017 911S and 2017 911 4. The dealership allowed me and the wife to test drive both vehicles by ourselves. We felt that our F80 felt quicker then both 911's. I posted on another thread and was advised that the acceleration of the 911 is more linear and that both aforementioned 911's are quicker then my F80. Interesting though when watching Nick Murray (he owned a M4 and now a 911 C4S 991.2) on YouTube and he did a rolling drag race pitting his 911 C4S against a M4. The end result the 911 4S lost. Here is the link:
. I have also read other car publications online showing the 0-60 time for a 2017 911 S posting a time of 3.6 seconds.

I respect the Porsche racing heritage and owning a 911 is a vehicle that is on my bucket list. With that being said I am having a hard time parting with over 100k for a 911S. Affording the vehicle is not an issue but after test driving the aforementioned 911's I had a new found respect for my F80.

I respect everyone's opinion but our F80 is comfortable for me and the wife and quick. When we did test drive the 911's she said she was not comfortable and would not like to drive in the 911 from San Diego County to Las Vegas. I have to agree the F80 for us (we are in our 50's) is more comfortable then the 911. But I still want one (911) in my garage.

Truth be told I ride my bikes (2016 BMW R1200RT and 2018 BMW R1200GSA) more then I drive my F80.
Well, it has been proven time and time again a 911S is a good bit faster than anything from the M3/4 line. Even the M4 GTS in cup tires got beaten badly by a Carrera S in summer tires at MT Best Driver’s car in the 1/4 and ever speed metric and got handily beaten in the track time. The M4 GTS only has a full cpukover suspension, downforce and 80 hp and 100 yw more besides the advantage in tires. LOL
Nick’s 911 is also a manual and driver skill does mean something. I’ve lined my 991.2S manual up against a manual M3 competition with a coworker and my car pulled easily on him.

Here’s a 991.2 GTS vs an m4 CS and you can see the M4 is left beyond comparison. The GTS is not much faster than an S.

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