What leather cleaner and conditioner to not fade Sakhir Orange interior ?

[Draper]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

There's nothing to disprove because they haven't made any product claims regarding a surface coating.

Another example: my wife is so beautiful she requires no make-up. See? I didn't say she doesn't use any.

Here's another BMW example:

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You would be forgiven for thinking this means only ZCP cars have a modified bedplate, but actually ETK shows that the oil pan code is new for LCI cars. Further S55B30A engine ETK number is also new from1/1/2016 and is not exchangeable retrospectively and is the same for all post 1/1/2016 models including ZCP.

In short, there's no specific ZCP code for the engine vs the ZCP suspension where there is ... meaning all M4s have a modified bedplate. So why did BMW stick this misleading language here?

Marketing!

So...

You're upset here because BMW released a factual statement about a new product, but didn't bother to release a second statement about an already released product?

Maybe this means the UV protection is available in the dye used on all F8x (not just the F83), but I don't see how this works to discredit the statements made about leather correction or top coats.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

So...

You're upset here because BMW released a factual statement about a new product, but didn't bother to release a second statement about an already released product?

I'm making the point, with examples, that BMW marketing writes potentially misleading content to make their products sound great ... but it's not like they're inventing new techniques here ...

What you're quoting as fact (no surface coating) is actually not a fact about the surface coating, but BMW's opinion about the quality of their cow hides.

Their wording is a standard marketing technique pioneered in consumer packaged goods advertising decades ago (I'd think you'd have recognized that Mr. Draper): you state an opinion about one thing (cow hides) to make it sound like differentiated, higher quality product when you've really said nothing about your product.

[Draper]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I'm making the point, with examples, that BMW marketing writes potentially misleading content to make their products sound great ... but it's not like they're inventing new techniques here ...

What you're quoting as fact (no surface coating) is actually not a fact about the surface coating, but BMW's opinion about the quality of their cow hides.

Their wording is a standard marketing technique pioneered in consumer packaged goods advertising decades ago (I'd think you'd have recognized that Mr. Draper): you state an opinion about one thing (cow hides) to make it sound like differentiated, higher quality product when you've really said nothing about your product.

There are 2 different things BMW is stating in their marketing.

The "flawless" portion indicates they feel their hides are of such a high quality they don't need to add micro-pigmentation in addition to the aniline (drum applied) dye. Whether or not we all agree with their assessment is open for debate (similar to your statement earlier about your wife and makeup), but the there is little doubt about what they are saying is being done (or not done) with regard to surface treatments. The "porous" portion indicates they are leaving their leather in a natural, unsealed state - or at the very least their sealant is porous and breathable. I don't know how to read this any other way.

It seems we're going over the same territory again here, and I feel there isn't going to be a scenario where both of us leave this debate fully satisfied. So, I'll offer you this....

We can both agree that neither of us know with absolute certainty the exact materials or processes BMW uses to produce its Merino leather. Furthermore, it's unlikely these will ever be revealed to anyone outside of BMW (trade secrets). The average person is then left with 3 choices. 1. Follow the manufactures recommended cleaning/treatment method. 2. Use an alternative cleaning/treatment method. 3. Do nothing, and simply enjoy the car for what it is.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Draper

The "flawless" portion indicates they feel their hides are of such a high quality they don't need to add micro-pigmentation in addition to the aniline (drum applied) dye. Whether or not we all agree with their assessment is open for debate (similar to your statement earlier about your wife and makeup), but the there is little doubt about what they are saying is being done (or not done) with regard to surface treatments. The "porous" portion indicates they are leaving their leather in a natural, unsealed state - or at the very least their sealant is porous and breathable. I don't know how to read this any other way.

There are basically 4 types of auto leather, and finishing depends on sourcing:

Leather Sourcing.
From cows or bulls. Bulls have fewer stretch marks since they don't get pregnant, and cattle from farms without barbwire fences and lots of wind / fewer bugs typically have fewer blemishes too. So sourcing is important and BMW references this in their hide quality, "flawless". German bulls are typically referenced as being of very high quality for leather.

Leather Finishing.
There are essentially 4 methods, both for stretched and un-stretched leather with stretching making more, but thinner, leather:

(1.) Vegetable Tanned.
This is the super high quality stuff that's pretty niche market. Rolls-Royce, for example, Corinova's veggie leather.

(2.) Aniline & Semi-Aniline.
This is likely what Merino is. Both kinds are vat-tumbled for softening with dyes and UV protectants and both allow you to see the natural grain. This is likely what BMW means with "fine grain". Semi-aniline typically adds a final clear or pigmented coat to protect the leather.

(3.) "Nappa" and embossed leather.
This is still full grain, but usually has a thicker surface coat and is with a less quality hide. It's still "natural" but more processed that aniline/semi-aniline and can be embossed as well.

(4.) Corrected Leather.
This leather is typically stretched and the top layer is sanded off to remove the blemishes, and then new grain/texture is embossed onto the leather. Because the top layer has been sanded off, the leather is very porous and accepts the color completely thus is totally uniform in color and totally sealed.

Leather Care
Years ago, you had to "feed" leather oils and fats because the ones that came with it would migrate out due to heat, sun, etc and the leather would harden and crack if you didn't. This is where the idea of "conditioning" comes from.

These days, modern techniques and fat liquors fully integrate with the hide, thus there's no fat loss and you don't need to condition any more - it's totally unnecessary, which is why all those $50 creams are mostly unnecessary.

Further, oil and water don't mix, so even if BMW leather is made of sponge, it's oil soaked sponge. That means it'll repel water and since it's already full of oil it's not going to accept much from your hands even if it's porous.

But ... oil and dirt mix pretty well, and mixed they create quite an abrasive putty that'll eat at your leather. That's why if I was going to put a protectant on I'd use C Quartz or similar as it creates a sacrificial layer and makes it easier to clean off the dirt. It also makes sliding in / out of the car easier

TLDR:
Merino is good leather, porous doesn't matter except for looks, and you don't need to condition, but cleaning is a must and protection (with your own surface coating) is probably a good idea.

[///M-Furby]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

yup, basically a damp rag should take care of 99% of cleaning ... just like your paint, you don't want to grind dust, dirt, and grit into the polymer. This is where most leather damage comes from: people thinking they need to "condition" their leather so they rub goop on weekly and in doing so grind in dirt.

Best way to clean your leather is:

(1.) Use a dry clean high quality microfiber to "de-dust" all the leather surfaces.

(2.) Use a 2nd high quality microfiber that's slightly damp with distilled water to gently wipe down all the surfaces

(3.) For any stains, patiently and precisely apply a bit more elbow grease to only the stain.

Damn near anything will come off with this method and your polymer coating will thank you for not grinding it off with a paste of $50 goop and ass-sand.

Wow...so is htat the case for black full merino leather also? Just distilled water? Wipe the dust off and then wipe with a damp cloth?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by ///M-Furby

Wow...so is htat the case for black full merino leather also? Just distilled water? Wipe the dust off and then wipe with a damp cloth?

yup. Good leather cleaners are fine, and some add extra protection so that's good too. But basic care is fine for a lot of years. I had black with dogs in back seat for 5 years. Sold the car and the buyer told me the key reason they bought it is because it was obvious I constantly detailed the interior.

[///M-Furby]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

yup. Good leather cleaners are fine, and some add extra protection so that's good too. But basic care is fine for a lot of years. I had black with dogs in back seat for 5 years. Sold the car and the buyer told me the key reason they bought it is because it was obvious I constantly detailed the interior.

no concerns over sun fading? i am all for ez. just didnt know this would be easy.

next, which glass coat (e.g. opticoat) is great so i dont have to wax or polish for a year or so...and rough price

[///M-Furby]

What about Z-10 Leather for black full merino leather

[BajanM3]

Originally Posted by Draper

Good info, but I think it's a bit too general and not specific to BMW.

One exception where Merino *may* have something extra is on the F83 which BMW states includes 'SunReflective Technology'. Whether that is some sort of extra coating or special dye we don't know, but that doesn't change the fact that BMW still describes Merino as being porous, even in the convertible.

BMW Individual ordering guide
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle..._catalogue.pdf

Reading this...it says "As a result, these
premium leathers do not require any surface treatment."

sooo.... Draper GrussGott I'm taking this to mean that you don't need to treat the surface with any type of conditioner or cleaner.

It sounds like to me that a damp microfiber cloth to wipe away and dust and minor stains...would do the trick.

Is that a correct assessment?

[BajanM3]

Originally Posted by Draper

There are 2 different things BMW is stating in their marketing.

The "flawless" portion indicates they feel their hides are of such a high quality they don't need to add micro-pigmentation in addition to the aniline (drum applied) dye. Whether or not we all agree with their assessment is open for debate (similar to your statement earlier about your wife and makeup), but the there is little doubt about what they are saying is being done (or not done) with regard to surface treatments. The "porous" portion indicates they are leaving their leather in a natural, unsealed state - or at the very least their sealant is porous and breathable. I don't know how to read this any other way.

It seems we're going over the same territory again here, and I feel there isn't going to be a scenario where both of us leave this debate fully satisfied. So, I'll offer you this....

We can both agree that neither of us know with absolute certainty the exact materials or processes BMW uses to produce its Merino leather. Furthermore, it's unlikely these will ever be revealed to anyone outside of BMW (trade secrets). The average person is then left with 3 choices. 1. Follow the manufactures recommended cleaning/treatment method. 2. Use an alternative cleaning/treatment method. 3. Do nothing, and simply enjoy the car for what it is.

From working in the auto industry myself for several years, I know there are things that the average customer will never know unless they talk to directly to the engineers who design and work with these products on a daily basis.

So I completely agree with this statement:
"Furthermore, it's unlikely these will ever be revealed to anyone outside of BMW (trade secrets). The average person is then left with 3 choices. 1. Follow the manufactures recommended cleaning/treatment method. 2. Use an alternative cleaning/treatment method. 3. Do nothing, and simply enjoy the car for what it is"

At the end of the day....outside of trying to get the correct information straight from the horses mouth (bmw seat engineers)...we are only left with these 3 options.

Pick one...try it out...and see what results you get.
If you don't like the results...try another method.

From all the GREAT info you guys have provided here....I'm leaning towards starting off with less (damp micro fiber cloth)..trying that out first...

and then move on from there if I find that the leather needs more than that to clean and condition

my thought process is this:
what harm can be done with using a very damp microfiber cloth to wipe
away any dust?

I'm assuming very little.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by BajanM3

my thought process is this:
what harm can be done with using a very damp microfiber cloth to wipe
away any dust?

I'm assuming very little.

well, it's controversial and Draper and I like to argue about it more than is good for us

but my 2 cents is:

(1.) The leather doesn't need "conditioning" as it's already polymer protected - i.e., you're not going to be replacing any oils or fats - that's was only needed for leather from a bygone era 30+ years ago (in general). That's obvious just looking at the leather surface and the dye.

(2.)Polymer protecting can't hurt if done properly, just like the clear coat of your paint. That is, on a clean surface, without too much pressure, with the right rags, etc. If "protecting" is done too much or wrong it's more apt to damage the existing polymer surface by scratching it with surface dirt and grit and/or getting goop or moisture into the leather around the stitching and/or damaging the stitching.

(3.) By far the more important thing is removing dust and grit before doing any scrubbing or sitting. This mean just a routine light wipe with a dry clean never re-used microfiber is one of the best things you can do. From there any stains can be removed with a damp second, clean, never re-used microfiber. If you've got visible dirt stains on the leather (like on a steering wheel) it just means you're not getting the dirt off enough.

[Tacoma]

Got to this thread late but excellent conversation & debate between GrussGott and Draper.

Regardless of who speaks the real truth, my question - directed at GrussGott in particular - is, when you say "The [Merino] leather doesn't need "conditioning" as it's already polymer protected," notwithstanding, will it hurt the leather in any way if you condition it anyway?

[iatacs19]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Distilled water.

Auto leather is seal-coated with a dyed polymer and the texture is fake - in short, the actual leather is coated with colored plastic thus the only thing needed to clean it is a good quality microfiber with distilled water (you don't want to leave residue). You can't "condition" a polymer coating so none of that is necessary. You do want to be careful of the stitching and stitching holes - those are portals to the underlying leather so you should be careful there.

If you rub goop on your auto leather, best case scenario is you're doing nothing, worst case is you're abrating off the polymer, wearing down the stitching, and contaminating the underlying leather around the stitching holes.

Yup! distilled water! It's the same for leather used in furniture:

http://www.eliteleather.com/materials/care-cleaning

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Got to this thread late but excellent conversation & debate between GrussGott and Draper.

Regardless of who speaks the real truth, my question - directed at GrussGott in particular - is, when you say "The [Merino] leather doesn't need "conditioning" as it's already polymer protected," notwithstanding, will it hurt the leather in any way if you condition it anyway?

Duh, I'm right. Draper?

ANNnnyyyway....

My answer would be it's the same as your paint: if you're an expert detailer who uses the foam guns, the two-bucket method, clay, protectant, and an RO to polish out swirls then more washes probably doesn't hurt. If you're not very careful, you're going to swirl the shit out of your paint.

Same with the "leather" which I'm putting in quotes because, just like your "paint", you're actually not cleaning and polishing the paint but rather clear coat. With leather you're cleaning the seal coating, not the leather.

If you're very detailed and use great technique - and keep the goop and moisture away from the stitching - then it probably doesn't hurt to clean your leather's sealcoat. But if you're a normal person, then it's probably best to only clean it when you can see that it's dirty.

Because, really, that's the ONLY reason you're doing anything to it: so it looks clean. Anything else one THINKS they're doing ... well, they're not.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

hate to revive this lol. But I've been using water and its been giving me good results. It been 20k tho. Car never sees the sun. just for future reference, what would be the mildest leather cleaner that wont leave anything behind?

[domino_z]

Water alone doesn't clean the pu coating of modern leather, just like water alone won't clean paint

Most leather cleaners are just watered down apc's with a fragrant scent added

The tool used to clean is equally as important as the product you choose

There are so many leather cleaners out there, and most even come from the same chemical manufacturer. In the interest of not getting into a brand debate, just stick with the bmw leather cleaner (which iirc is a sonax product), and a soft bristled leather brush

[saporitj]

IND Tartufo Merino
Notice: upper dash isn't Marino leather.
Best way to protect the interior is with window tint that blocks the UV rays. My tint blocks 99.5 of UV.
My car seats below:
Sign BMW Individual
- ZBTQ BMW Individual Full Leather Trim Merino Finely Structured
- Full Leather Merino Tartufo
- Nb 7 988 499 Sun Reflective Technology
- Sewing Thread Redorange Nb 7 072 844 Code 1356 A
- Quilting Yarn Redorange Nb 7 072 848 Code 1356 A
- In Combination With Option 453
- Front Seat Covers Partially In Climate Leather
- Merino Tartufo Perforated
- Nb 7 988 927 Sun Reflective Technology
- Sewing Thread Redorange Nb 7 072 844 Code 1356 A
- Quilting Yarn Redorange Nb 7 072 848 Code 1356 A
- Contrast Stitching On Full Leather
- Sewing Thread Lotos White Nb 1 966 487 Code 0102 Z
- Quilting Yarn Lotos White Nb 1 969 127 Code 0102 Z
- Quilting Yarn For Ornamental Seam
- Quilting Yarn Redorange Nb 7 989 257 Code 1356 A
- Braided Contrast Piping Leather Merino Smoked White
- Nb 7 849 679 Sun Reflective Technology
- Upper Dash Board And Capping Of Door Trim
- Leather Walknappa Black
- Nb 7 963 181 Sun Reflective Technology
- Sewing Thread Black Nb 1 905 499 Code 0020
- Contrast Stitching On Upper Dash Board And Capping Of Door Trim
- Sewing Thread Redorange Nb 7 072 844 Code 1356 A
- Quilting Yarn Redorange Nb 7 072 848 Code 1356 A
- Seam Of Seats According To BMW Individual
- Remainder Of Spec As Leather Dakota Black Code LCSW

[saporitj]

My 540ix M sport came with Merino Tartufo FULL leather. I listed a detailed description of my leather seats above in another post. The Dakota and Nappa leathers have specific sections that are real leather while the other areas are not leather. The BMW INDIVIDUAL app shows the difference. This shows the difference between Merino Full as opposed to Nappa and Dakota. The black areas would be converted with synthetic leather.

[DaytonaVioletM3]

Lord Leather Care is amazing from my experience.