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      12-25-2013, 01:09 PM   #1
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BMW Value

I used to think that BMW cars were overpriced. Compared to normal, everyday drivers and American muscle cars, that statement probably holds true. But when you start comparing BMW M performance cars to the other exotics and high priced/performance oriented cars, BMW prices really begin to look like a bargain.

Assuming that the new M4 coupe will be in the same ballpark as the previous M3, you'll pay nearly twice as much to get a similarly performing porsche (131k for a baseline 911 gt3 with 475hp and 325ft-lb). The GT3 will likely continue to outperform the m3/m4 in terms of handling, but hp/torque wise, the stats are close enough.

When you upgrade to the M6 coupe, the price difference increases dramatically. You pay 113k for a baseline M6 coupe with 560hp and 500ft-lb. You'll have to pay 27k more for a aston martin vantage which only has 430hp/360ft-lb (that's m4 territory in terms of performance)....57k more for jaguar xk with marginally lower hp and torque...and over 120k more for a ferrari 458 with much less torque.

Granted you need a lot of dough to play with the m6, but you compare it to the other top-of-the line v8's out there...you really get a lot more performance for your money. Really makes you appreciate the value and performance you get for the price you pay with BMW!

Last edited by Patronus86; 12-25-2013 at 03:26 PM.. Reason: typo
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      12-25-2013, 01:14 PM   #2
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want value/hp - get the new mustang and buy super inexpensive upgrades or anything else american
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      12-25-2013, 01:14 PM   #3
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Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!
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      12-25-2013, 02:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkhanna16
Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!
Chill out, dude. I'm an obsessed car enthusiast myself, but there's no need for that reaction just because someone compared the M4 (which we're only beginning to see actual driven reviews for) to a 911 GT3.

The 911 GT3 is almost certainly a far better vehicle (and it should be for that price), but these are just cars we're talking about. The dude didn't insult your wife and kids.
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      12-25-2013, 02:20 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post
Chill out, dude. I'm an obsessed car enthusiast myself, but there's no need for that reaction just because someone compared the M4 (which we're only beginning to see actual driven reviews for) to a 911 GT3.

The 911 GT3 is almost certainly a far better vehicle (and it should be for that price), but these are just cars we're talking about. The dude didn't insult your wife and kids.
Agreed
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      12-25-2013, 02:26 PM   #6
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there is a lot more to cars than there performance. also you look like a fool when you talk about only power numbers.

making big power is EASY! everything else is HARD

ferrari makes world class engines. there engines are all naturally aspirated making the power of engines that have twin turbos on them. its a insult to even compare a M6 to one.
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      12-25-2013, 02:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkhanna16 View Post
Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!
Well, I think he didn't say the M4 would beat the GT3 on the track, actually he said the GT3 would outperform the M4. However, it would be a shame for Porsche if the M4 would be on the same level as the GT3, since it costs twice as much, is smaller, has less comfort, it's not as convenient, has less space etc.
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      12-25-2013, 03:23 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by mrkhanna16 View Post
Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!
I totally agree with you. They are very different cars in terms of weight, handling, body setup, and many other factors.. That doesn't mean I can't compare them. I know the GT3 outperforms the current e92 m3, and who knows how the m4 will stack up against it. My only point was that for the probable price that you will pay for a m4, you get a well-designed v6 sports car that has similar hp and torque stats to those of the gt3. HP and torque dont give you the whole picture, and I know the gt3 has historically trumped the m3 on the track, but for everyday driver or even occasional track use, the m4 seems like a bargain when compared to the gt3.

Do you at least see my point there, or do you want to post another angry response in all caps?

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Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
there is a lot more to cars than there performance. also you look like a fool when you talk about only power numbers.

making big power is EASY! everything else is HARD

ferrari makes world class engines. there engines are all naturally aspirated making the power of engines that have twin turbos on them. its a insult to even compare a M6 to one.
Ezio, you are right, there is a lot more to cars than simple hp and torque stats. And yes, the ferrari 458's engine, though a v8, is different from the m6's. I know the 458 has a faster 0-60mph time, and though I haven't seen the f12 m6's nurburgring tracktime, I'd assume the ferrari 458 is faster due to the weight difference. So in terms of all around performance, the ferrari is better. All I am saying is that for much less money, the m6 offers similar performance to that of the ferrari...though not necessarily equal performance. That's what I meant when I said you get a lot more performance for your money with the m6.

If I had the option and money to buy a m6 for 113k or buy a ferrari 458 for 233k, I'd buy the m6, because the .6 sec faster 0-60 time and the faster nurburgring time isn't worth the extra 100k in my eyes. This isn't an insult to the ferrari, just my opinion.

Last edited by Patronus86; 12-25-2013 at 03:34 PM..
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      12-25-2013, 03:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patronus86 View Post

Ezio, you are right, there is a lot more to cars than simple hp and torque stats. And yes, the ferrari 458's engine, though a v8, is different from the m6's. I know the 458 has a faster 0-60mph time, and though I haven't seen the f12 m6's nurburgring tracktime, I'd assume the ferrari 458 is faster due to the weight difference. So in terms of all around performance, the ferrari is better. All I am saying is that for much less money, the m6 offers similar performance...not better performance or even equal performance to the ferrari, but similar.

If I had the option and money to buy a m6 for 113k or buy a ferrari 458 for 233k, I'd buy the m6, because the .6 sec faster 0-60 time and the faster nurburgring time isn't worth the extra 100k in my eyes. This isn't an insult to the ferrari, just my opinion.
you are not seeing this correctly though. you are viewing a Ferrari with a very narrow mind. i dont know how many times i have said this to people. a Ferrari is about driving experience, not about getting a fast track time. although they are still very very fast.

Ferrari offers a more race car feel. it may not be that must faster over a M6.but it the FEEL of the car is on another level.

your statement about how you would buy a M6 over a Ferrari because of some 0-60 number and track number tells me you need to drive a Ferrari or any exotic car. because you don't understand what they are about.
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      12-25-2013, 04:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
you are not seeing this correctly though. you are viewing a Ferrari with a very narrow mind. i dont know how many times i have said this to people. a Ferrari is about driving experience, not about getting a fast track time. although they are still very very fast.

Ferrari offers a more race car feel. it may not be that must faster over a M6.but it the FEEL of the car is on another level.

your statement about how you would buy a M6 over a Ferrari because of some 0-60 number and track number tells me you need to drive a Ferrari or any exotic car. because you don't understand what they are about.
I got it...every car is different and every car has a different "feel" to it. I've got no arguments with that. But from my point of view, the better performance and different "feel," vibe, aura, character, of the ferrari is not worth the extra 100k. I have not driven either car, so I can't compare the driving experiences. But I do know how I value things and how I spend my money. And If I had the money to buy either car, I know that no amount of "feel" is going to make me spend an extra 100k for the ferrari.

You're right, I am seeing this whole issue from a different perspective...just because it is different from your point of view doesn't mean I am narrow minded. If anyone else on this forum thinks I am "narrow minded" for refusing to buy a 233k car, please let me know.

Last edited by Patronus86; 12-25-2013 at 04:04 PM.. Reason: typo
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      12-25-2013, 05:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patronus86 View Post
I got it...every car is different and every car has a different "feel" to it. I've got no arguments with that. But from my point of view, the better performance and different "feel," vibe, aura, character, of the ferrari is not worth the extra 100k. I have not driven either car, so I can't compare the driving experiences. But I do know how I value things and how I spend my money. And If I had the money to buy either car, I know that no amount of "feel" is going to make me spend an extra 100k for the ferrari.

You're right, I am seeing this whole issue from a different perspective...just because it is different from your point of view doesn't mean I am narrow minded. If anyone else on this forum thinks I am "narrow minded" for refusing to buy a 233k car, please let me know.
this is what i wish you would have said from the beginning.

"there is something to say about a Ferrari`s exotic appeal. the car is surely something special that offers certain level of excitement only a exotic car can do. with that said when it comes down to it i can respect what Ferrari does and the cars they make. although i am more into the actually performance on a car. which is why i see the M6 at a better value."


^ with that said you respect Ferrari and understand what kind of cars they make. while making a point on why you see more value in a M6.

your on a car forum you gotta respect people have passion for stuff like this. you cant put a M6 in the spot light only.
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      12-25-2013, 06:50 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patronus86 View Post
I used to think that BMW cars were overpriced. Compared to normal, everyday drivers and American muscle cars, that statement probably holds true. But when you start comparing BMW M performance cars to the other exotics and high priced/performance oriented cars, BMW prices really begin to look like a bargain.

Assuming that the new M4 coupe will be in the same ballpark as the previous M3, you'll pay nearly twice as much to get a similarly performing porsche (131k for a baseline 911 gt3 with 475hp and 325ft-lb). The GT3 will likely continue to outperform the m3/m4 in terms of handling, but hp/torque wise, the stats are close enough.

When you upgrade to the M6 coupe, the price difference increases dramatically. You pay 113k for a baseline M6 coupe with 560hp and 500ft-lb. You'll have to pay 27k more for a aston martin vantage which only has 430hp/360ft-lb (that's m4 territory in terms of performance)....57k more for jaguar xk with marginally lower hp and torque...and over 120k more for a ferrari 458 with much less torque.

Granted you need a lot of dough to play with the m6, but you compare it to the other top-of-the line v8's out there...you really get a lot more performance for your money. Really makes you appreciate the value and performance you get for the price you pay with BMW!
That has allways been what a M car is about. Supercar performance in a family car.

And don't let others dictate how you should write, mean or feel about a Ferrari... Not everyone remembers that Ferrari made the 288GTO and F40 which both had a turbo V8 engine. Or that the next California also will have a turbo V8...
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      12-25-2013, 08:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezio View Post
this is what i wish you would have said from the beginning.

"there is something to say about a Ferrari`s exotic appeal. the car is surely something special that offers certain level of excitement only a exotic car can do. with that said when it comes down to it i can respect what Ferrari does and the cars they make. although i am more into the actually performance on a car. which is why i see the M6 at a better value."


^ with that said you respect Ferrari and understand what kind of cars they make. while making a point on why you see more value in a M6.

your on a car forum you gotta respect people have passion for stuff like this. you cant put a M6 in the spot light only.
Ezio, this seems to be turning into an ad for ferrari, and it's getting old. I understand you find ferrari's exotic and appealing. I don't share your feelings. I think the M6 offers a much better performance-oriented package for its price tag (better bang for your buck). In no way did my posts disrespect ferrari's or those people who like them. I stated my opinion, which is obviously different from yours.

So there is no need to keep lecturing me on how awesome ferrari's are. And to those of you who actually understood what I was saying...thank you!
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      12-25-2013, 08:47 PM   #14
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i get what you are trying to say

problem is, you have to throw the merc c63 amg and audi rs5 in the same category. they both make the same power and cost about the same. in fact, based on power alone, both of those cars are even MORE similar to the gt3 or whatever other car you compare it to.

issue is that these cars make good power, but fail to match the true sports cars in every other category such as handling, braking, looks, prestige, interior etc..

compared on HP alone, you could make the argument a camry is a good value compared to a cayman because it makes more HP. i really dont think that is a very valid argument either.

kudos for trying, and the m3 and its competitors are THE best do it all performance cars iout there
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      12-25-2013, 09:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWJ View Post
want value/hp - get the new mustang and buy super inexpensive upgrades or anything else american
Agreed.

I can see this same thread being created in a Mustang forum talking about how its a performance value compared to the M3/M4.
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      12-25-2013, 09:15 PM   #16
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There's even more value when you factor cost of ownership, depreciation, insurance and practically.
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      12-25-2013, 09:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkhanna16
Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!
Lol. I like the passion
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      12-25-2013, 09:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
the issue is that these cars make good power, but fail to match the true sports cars in every other category such as handling, braking, looks, prestige, interior etc..

compared on HP alone, you could make the argument a camry is a good value compared to a cayman because it makes more HP. i really dont think that is a very valid argument either.

kudos for trying, and the m3 and its competitors are THE best do it all performance cars iout there
Dude...i am not making the judgement on hp alone. There is a lot more to any car, including the m3, than just hp and torque as I have said numerous times.

I agree that the m3 is one of the best do-it-all performance cars out there. That belief coupled with its relatively reasonable cost was the whole point of this thread.
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      12-25-2013, 09:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkhanna16 View Post
Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!
That's for sure. the GTR is WAY faster, and the NISMO one coming out is going to be a true BEAST.
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      12-26-2013, 07:34 AM   #20
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I would never base a vehicle purchase on its 0-60 time but that is me I guess. You are entitled to your opinions but it's pretty clear you haven't driven these different types of vehicles before. The 0-60 time is a pretty useless metric for a daily driver car or even a weekend cruiser unless all you want to do is drag race. The feel of a car to me is way more important then how fast I can get to 60. I would much rather own a 325hp cayman than an M6 as it is way more fun to drive and is a much better sports car.

Today's cars are governed by traction on there 0-60 times, so more HP is not always a good thing. I have driven many different vehicles including the M6 and personally I would never buy an M6. The M6 is really only good for a highway cruiser in my mind. It feels way too big and floaty to take it on the track and I wouldn't feel all that comfortable taking it on a mountain run.

Some cars you have listed have finesse some don't and we can go on and on but you will never understand it until you drive them. I don't mean drive them to the mall and back either actualy take them on a road and go through some nice tight switchbacks and long sweeping turns. You have to look at the whole package for a car comfort, suspension, brakes, amenities, hp, tq, weight, driving emotion, and cost.

With all that said yes BMW provides a decently priced performance vehicle but I wouldn't say they are bargain prices by any means. You get a fast car that is very practical but to me you get it at a high price, at least as of recently. If you want bang for buck I would suggest looking at the mustang, corvette, and gtr (for your 0-60) if want want the real bang for buck performance machines. Off topic but hopefully ford nails down that new irs suspension as that was the only thing holding back the last mustang from being amazing.
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      12-26-2013, 07:43 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkhanna16 View Post
Don't ever compare the M4 to the gt3....ever..... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CARS!
Would you mind if I compare the gt3 to Mazda RX-8? Each one has 4 wheels, transmission, windows, and even a speedometer, among other things.
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      12-26-2013, 08:49 AM   #22
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The GT3 is absolutely twice the car of the M4. It's not just about 0-60 (which is is 3.0 seconds in the naturally aspirated 911). 4 wheel steering? Best sounding sport exhaust? Yes. I am on the fence about getting one but at $140k it's the best deal out there and an alternative to a 458 not M4. Is the m4 better than the cayman? Not a better driving car but better presence. Going from an E46 to an E92 to a 911C4S I can tell you those cars are not in the same league in terms of steering or performance? The M3/M4 are great cars but if you want a "sports car" vs a GT car the 911 is hands down more engaging. The M6? Have you driven it? Seriously least special car out there. The Ferrari 458????? Without question the single greatest car I have ever driven in-terms of everything. That being said if the M4 is that special when I drive it and I splash water on my face and realize spending GT3 money on a car is silly, it's still on my list. This video starts out a little slow but I'm assuming you aren't aware of the tech in the GT3 so check it out http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...fications.html
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