Planning to buy an F80, is the JB4 still the go to?

[04RC51]

Basics Bro!

[MMMCOOKIES55]

Bootmod3 all the way. Live data logging, smooth, reliable power and the benefits of having a flash tune

[Tan]

Go with Dinan if you care about warranty.

[nikosaur]

BM3 is love.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by chewbakam4

Why don't you do a search on limp mode and drivetrain malfunction with a jb before you post? Also search about the dreaded FASTA report which detects piggybacks due to much raised injector flow numbers much higher than stock. Nothing is really invisible and everything can have an issue and you can get nailed at dealer. The only thing you're saving here is not opening the DME but then again all you're doing is just cranking up boost. Ask anyone who knows anything about tuning, google it, what should be done when increasing boost and they'll tell you to lower timing or she'll go knocking on you. That's basics bro. Piggybacks only stand a chance because motor allows knock to happen and puts up with that beating. You can see it on dynos especially on pump gas when they get all out of whack from one run to another. Now if you plan to run race gas or meth then you help the situation but on pump gas I'd never recommend anything but doing a flash to set your timing and fuel right. Basics bro.

While I'll never argue that a correctly tuned flash isn't the best way to go, you need to understand that the S55 DME is very smart and has complete control over timing. The s55 is octane limited on 93 octane (much less 91), even on stock boost. The DME knows how much timing it can run and won't run more than it can for a given octane. It does this totally safely and is very proficient at it. The DME is so proficient at this, it will output a octane rating that can be seen using ISTA/D, depending on how much timing it's able to run without significant knock. As long as the tuner doesn't mess with the Knock tables/thresholds, this feature will stay intact.

So, with that said, when using a JB4 to increase boost, the DME will correct timing as it sees Knock and will lower overall timing to suite the octane and boost levels. Now, obviously the more you raise boost and not raise octane, the more the DME will pull timing and the higher chances of a "superknock" event. So, as with anything, you need to know what you're doing and datalog to make sure the engine is running healthy for a given octane and boost.

Flashes can be much more dangerous than a JB4 if the "tooner" doesn't know what they're doing or alters the Knock tables/safety features.

[1FastS4]

Originally Posted by TypeOne

Reflashing might be all the rage right now but to be honest, you still can't beat the ease of use with the JB4. I don't think making a little more power is worth the hassle when I can unplug this thing and take my car in for service.

Really? There's no setup required with a good flash tune, and with MAP switching you're back to stock in less than 2 minutes without ever opening your hood.

I flash my car to stock when I pull into the parking lot at my dealership, and after service I'm back to full power before I leave the same parking lot.

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

So, with that said, when using a JB4 to increase boost, the DME will correct timing as it sees Knock and will lower overall timing to suite the octane and boost levels. Now, obviously the more you raise boost and not raise octane, the more the DME will pull timing and the higher chances of a "superknock" event. So, as with anything, you need to know what you're doing and datalog to make sure the engine is running healthy for a given octane and boost.

Which is why ethanol has become all the rage with JB4 owners.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but the ECU does not actually want to do what the little piggy is tricking it into doing, at least not on pump gas, which is why all of the higher power MAPs throw drive train malfunctions and have misfire issues when you have too little or too much E85 mixed in.

Ethanol is cheap octane and increasing your effective octane is practically a necessity to make the similar power with a piggy back to what flash tuning is able to do on 91 or 93 Octane.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

Really? There's no setup required with a good flash tune, and with MAP switching you're back to stock in less than 2 minutes without ever opening your hood.

I flash my car to stock when I pull into the parking lot at my dealership, and after service I'm back to full power before I leave the same parking lot.




Which is why ethanol has become all the rage with JB4 owners.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but the ECU does not actually want to do what the little piggy is tricking it into doing, at least not on pump gas, which is why all of the higher power MAPs throw drive train malfunctions and have misfire issues when you have too little or too much E85 mixed in.

Ethanol is cheap octane and increasing your effective octane is practically a necessity to make the similar power with a piggy back to what flash tuning is able to do on 91 or 93 Octane.

Ethanol is all the rage, period. End of story. It doesn't matter what you're running, alcohol fuels are very effective at raising detonation threshold. Just because VF doesn't offer their customers the ability to run ethanol mixtures, doesn't mean it's appropriate for you to bag on it.

This particular DME handles what the JB4 is sending it pretty well. However, if the DME's stock tuning is already somewhat octane limited in pump gas, upping the boost will cause even more timing pull, regardless of what is causing the boost increase (unless you increase detonation threshold). The biggest reason people get drivetrain malfunctions using a JB4 is due to trims maxing out from either improperly setting up the JB4 or too much ethanol (which can easily be fixed in a BEF). Whenever trims go too high, the DME will attempt to protect the engine by switching fuel lookup target tables over to what's called the "Superknock" fuel target table, which is tuned very rich (in the low 10:1 range) which will cause misfires, especially on ethanol mixtures (due to the much different stoich mixture of ethanol) and thus is what causes the DMal. The DME, once it senses major misfires (and it has very good misfire detection), totally shuts down the offending cylinders and throws the DME into limp mode until the engine is shut down and restarted - this doesn't hurt the engine at all and is a safety feature. Again, these issues can be fixed in a Back End Flash very easily.

As for the amount of power that can be made with a JB4 vs. a straight flash, there are a lot of variables at play and boost pressure is certainly one of them, however, there are several others at play.

[1FastS4]

LOL. I wasn't "bagging on" ethanol. There's plenty of fun to be had with ethanol if that's what you're looking for. Heck, nearly ever really fast GTR nowadays is running straight E85. I was just pointing out that it's more of a necessity to make real power with a piggy back than it is a benefit.

For that reason I would rather have a flash tune that's quick and consistent on pump fuel with WAY better fuel economy. Some people don't want the hassle of blending fuel and a lot of people do more harm than good when they don't know what they are doing.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

LOL. I wasn't "bagging on" ethanol. There's plenty of fun to be had with ethanol if that's what you're looking for. Heck, nearly ever really fast GTR nowadays is running straight E85. I was just pointing out that it's more of a necessity to make real power with a piggy back than it is a benefit.

For that reason I would rather have a flash tune that's quick and consistent on pump fuel with WAY better fuel economy. Some people don't want the hassle of blending fuel and a lot of people do more harm than good when they don't know what they are doing.

Actually, you get better fuel economy at around E30 than you do on E10, this has been proven, especially with a modern DI engine such as the S55.

Even on straight E85, my mileage hasn't gone down very much at all on the S55 and the stock fuel system. PI would be a different story because PI has much less atomization and much more fuel is wasted, unlike if the fuel is injected through the DI system.

[BoxKing]

Getting back to the OP's question; you have to out-way the potential warranty issues that could arise, and which would be easier to cover up... According to endless knowledge from this forum, I'd say that the list of risk to having a warranty issue starts and ends like this:

From no worries, to the most:
1. No tune, no issue
2. Dinan piggy back
3. Piggy back tunes (JB4, Stage 1, AA.....)
3. Flash tune (HEX BM3...)
4. Un-recognized tune (piggy or flash) ebay, or others floating around...

There has been one great point I read on this thread so far, and its the pointing out of the fact that you can not resell a flash tune when you want to part ways for any reason.


**my list has no reflection of what could provide you with the overall best performance**

[1FastS4]

Originally Posted by BoxKing

Getting back to the OP's question; you have to out-way the potential warranty issues that could arise, and which would be easier to cover up... According to endless knowledge from this forum, I'd say that the list of risk to having a warranty issue starts and ends like this:

From no worries, to the most:
1. No tune, no issue
2. Dinan piggy back
3. Piggy back tunes (JB4, Stage 1, AA.....)
3. Flash tune (HEX BM3...)
4. Un-recognized tune (piggy or flash) ebay, or others floating around...

There has been one great point I read on this thread so far, and its the pointing out of the fact that you can not resell a flash tune when you want to part ways for any reason.


**my list has no reflection of what could provide you with the overall best performance**

You can't sell a playoff ticket the day after the game either.
I pay to play, and have more fun because of it.

In all seriousness the fear based around warranty issues is the best reason to do nothing at all, not the reason to pick the inferior product.

[BoxKing]

Originally Posted by 1FastS4

You can't sell a playoff ticket the day after the game either.
I pay to play, and have more fun because of it.

In all seriousness the fear based around warranty issues is the best reason to do nothing at all, not the reason to pick the inferior product.

Not a good analogy...... JB4 does pay off after its use, and can change multiple hands for the same price even after transfer. Once bought used, you can resell for the same price, making a used JB4 pretty much a sure thing to get an ROI for 100% (if used) a sure thing with the pleasure of the increased power. So apples to apples based on my above comments, can you do the same with you FLASH? N E G A T I V E

I never said that the flash was better or worse than piggy If you spent the same, and got a few ponies more with the FLASH, and were happy, then Im glad you did, I'm not hating on the FLASH, just voicing my opinion. Reason being, is that most ppl on here who post are concerned about warranty (do you not agree?), so why not offer info thats useful to those in question versus just telling them to search, or force you bias opinions on them without looking at the bigger picture; which, sometimes just pull up old results and they want "current data"

[S65V8]

BASICS BRO!!! hilarious.

[chewbakam4]

Bm3

/ close thread, basics bro

[jeffucd]

Originally Posted by BoxKing

Getting back to the OP's question; you have to out-way the potential warranty issues that could arise, and which would be easier to cover up... According to endless knowledge from this forum, I'd say that the list of risk to having a warranty issue starts and ends like this:

From no worries, to the most:
1. No tune, no issue
2. Dinan piggy back
3. Piggy back tunes (JB4, Stage 1, AA.....)
3. Flash tune (HEX BM3...)
4. Un-recognized tune (piggy or flash) ebay, or others floating around...

There has been one great point I read on this thread so far, and its the pointing out of the fact that you can not resell a flash tune when you want to part ways for any reason.


**my list has no reflection of what could provide you with the overall best performance**

Is this true? I thought with BM3 you could resell the software license.

[BoosTonian]

...and the dick measuring contest continues.

[chewbakam4]

Originally Posted by jeffucd

Is this true? I thought with BM3 you could resell the software license.

Yes you can he was wrong. BM3 is the only one you can do that with.

[EcHo714]

What are the benefits of running a jb4 and BM3 at the same time?

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by EcHo714

What are the benefits of running a jb4 and BM3 at the same time?

Having a really fast car for a few minutes before your engine explodes.

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Having a really fast car for a few minutes before your engine explodes.

Lol wut?

[CaryTheLabelGuy]

Originally Posted by EcHo714

What are the benefits of running a jb4 and BM3 at the same time?

Simple really, stacking the JB4 with a custom Back End Flash (BEF) allows the user/tuner to control boost easier. The JB4 is also an excellent Meth Injection controller as well as a Port Injection controller.

On the Back End side, critical things like Ignition Timing, AFR Targets (and Fuel Scalar/Correction Factor), valve overlap, Boost control, Torque/Load target and limit control (especially important for DCT cars) are easily tunable to suite the needs of the setup.

Plus, there are many other auxiliary changes that can be made through the flash to suit the user/setup, like Sound Tuning (Burble and Exhaust Valve Control), Cold Start, Decat, VMAX delete and iDrive Power Gauges, of which the JB4 (or any piggyback) doesn't have access to.

With a setup like BM3, the setup combinations and the ability to tune for all of them is key, IMHO. Using a JB4 and a BEF gives you the best of both worlds and is pretty damn good setup when properly tuned.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by CaryTheLabelGuy

Lol wut?

I was just joking but I know in general stacking tunes usually isnt the best idea. But of course the jb4 is more than just a boost increase module.