Buying used? Be aware of BMW M Performance School cars for sale

[noone]

As of this posting, almost every single 2016 with the competition package listed on Autotrader is an M School car. Please folks do not buy these cars and give BMW a reason to continue to offer these cars as barely used merchandise.

[Ibiza]

How many different individuals have purchased these used PC vehicles and have had problems? I'm sensing a class action ligation claim if there are enough people involved, including past model year issues.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

How many different individuals have purchased these used PC vehicles and have had problems? I'm sensing a class action ligation claim if there are enough people involved, including past model year issues.

I do not see much of a basis for class action UNLESS the sales are coming from one dealer and all are not being disclaimed as coming from the center. The only other option is a systematic conspiracy on the part of BMW NA to force dealers to lie and push these cars. Unless there is something I am not seeing this is a hard one.

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

I do not see much of a basis for class action UNLESS the sales are coming from one dealer and all are not being disclaimed as coming from the center. The only other option is a systematic conspiracy on the part of BMW NA to force dealers to lie and push these cars. Unless there is something I am not seeing this is a hard one.

Issue is as per the Bimmerfest post is that BMWNA is no longer honoring the new vehicle warranty. Also, disclosure of prior PC vehicle is not fully transparent, and if so at the 11th hour. It wouldn't hurt for an attorney with experience in class action and complex ligation to contact owners of the vehicles, as it can go back to MY 2015 also and include all PC vehicles sold as used.

Just become a forum sponsor and post an ad. Don't think that attorney sponsors are forbidden on either Bimmerpost or Bimmerfest.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

Issue is as per the Bimmerfest post is that BMWNA is no longer honoring the new vehicle warranty. Also, disclosure of prior PC vehicle is not fully transparent, and if so at the 11th hour. It wouldn't hurt for an attorney with experience in class action and complex ligation to contact owners of the vehicles, as it can go back to MY 2015 also and include all PC vehicles sold as used.

Just become a forum sponsor and post an ad. Don't think that attorney sponsors are forbidden on either Bimmerpost or Bimmerfest.

I am an attorney myself and often litigate complex class actions on the defense side. All I am trying to say is that I do not see the facts that support a strong class action case. At least not one worth the risk to take it on contingency. But then again, from this thread I only see a sliver of the facts. Maybe with some additional information/discovery the facts will change. However, given how the dealerships and BMW NA and BMW Performance center are structured, it will be hard at the very least re jurisdiction. That being said, any such case would probably hang at the pleadings/class cert stage for months if not years. That is a big risk for any lawyer.

Disclaimer: This post is not meant to give any legal advice and is only my personal opinion from my experience. I am not your lawyer or anyone's lawyer on this site. Just a participant with some experience.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by noone

As of this posting, almost every single 2016 with the competition package listed on Autotrader is an M School car. Please folks do not buy these cars and give BMW a reason to continue to offer these cars as barely used merchandise.

I'm not sure why I think it's an important distinction, but AFAIK it's BMWNA that's trying to unload these cars, not BMW AG (although the latter owns the former, still they're separate units), not that you didn't mean that in your post.

In short, BMWNA thinks this isn't a bad move for their market (the US) ... I wonder if they'll be mistaken ...

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

I am an attorney myself

Just fucking great

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

I am an attorney myself and often litigate complex class actions on the defense side. All I am trying to say is that I do not see the facts that support a strong class action case. At least not one worth the risk to take it on contingency. But then again, from this thread I only see a sliver of the facts. Maybe with some additional information/discovery the facts will change. However, given how the dealerships and BMW NA and BMW Performance center are structured, it will be hard at the very least re jurisdiction. That being said, any such case would probably hang at the pleadings/class cert stage for months if not years. That is a big risk for any lawyer.

Disclaimer: This post is not meant to give any legal advice and is only my personal opinion from my experience. I am not your lawyer or anyone's lawyer on this site. Just a participant with some experience.

Originally Posted by Thescout13

I am an attorney myself and often litigate complex class actions on the defense side. All I am trying to say is that I do not see the facts that support a strong class action case. At least not one worth the risk to take it on contingency. But then again, from this thread I only see a sliver of the facts. Maybe with some additional information/discovery the facts will change. However, given how the dealerships and BMW NA and BMW Performance center are structured, it will be hard at the very least re jurisdiction. That being said, any such case would probably hang at the pleadings/class cert stage for months if not years. That is a big risk for any lawyer.

Disclaimer: This post is not meant to give any legal advice and is only my personal opinion from my experience. I am not your lawyer or anyone's lawyer on this site. Just a participant with some experience.

I have posted on the respective forum possible cause of actions, he would probably need to file in NC Court and move to Federal 4th district. Never know if an 'ambulance chaser' plaintiff attorney would bite at the opportunity, as most class actions end in settlement, but for the Bimmerfest OP agreed that this would take years, probably 4+. This keeps you in business.

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

I am an attorney myself and often litigate complex class actions on the defense side. All I am trying to say is that I do not see the facts that support a strong class action case. At least not one worth the risk to take it on contingency. But then again, from this thread I only see a sliver of the facts. Maybe with some additional information/discovery the facts will change. However, given how the dealerships and BMW NA and BMW Performance center are structured, it will be hard at the very least re jurisdiction. That being said, any such case would probably hang at the pleadings/class cert stage for months if not years. That is a big risk for any lawyer.

Disclaimer: This post is not meant to give any legal advice and is only my personal opinion from my experience. I am not your lawyer or anyone's lawyer on this site. Just a participant with some experience.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Just fucking great

@thescout13 is in SoCal, so I'm OK on the east coast.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Just fucking great

Lost all your love for me?

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

I have posted on the respective forum possible cause of actions, he would probably need to file in NC Court and move to Federal 4th district. Never know if an 'ambulance chaser' plaintiff attorney would bite at the opportunity, as most class actions end in settlement, but for the Bimmerfest OP agreed that this would take years, probably 4+. This keeps you in business.

That is if all of the plaintiffs in the class action pay up front. Do not forget that 99 out of 100 class action cases are done by plaintiff's lawyers who work on contingency meaning they do not get paid while litigating and only get paid if they win. That is a HUGE risk for any lawyer to risk not getting paid for 4+ years in a class action unfriendly environment. BMW does not like to settle these kinds of cases (see BMW v. Gore). Many a lawyer has gone broke going all in on one of these cases against a fleet of lawyers for a large corporation. The only way it would make sense is if a non-profit was handling the case, the government (attorney general in certain states), or the plaintiffs pay. All are very unlikely.

I hope I understood your comment right. If not, woops, my bad. Haha. I am sure there is an ambulance chaser that would like to take this to try and get a quick settlement, but as many defense lawyers do, they will try to turn over every stone in defending the case, which costs a lot to respond to.

Such is the very sad (but lucrative) state of affairs in our judicial system.

[Ibiza]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

That is if all of the plaintiffs in the class action pay up front. Do not forget that 99 out of 100 class action cases are done by plaintiff's lawyers who work on contingency meaning they do not get paid while litigating and only get paid if they win. That is a HUGE risk for any lawyer to risk not getting paid for 4+ years in a class action unfriendly environment. BMW does not like to settle these kinds of cases (see BMW v. Gore). Many a lawyer has gone broke going all in on one of these cases against a fleet of lawyers for a large corporation. The only way it would make sense is if a non-profit was handling the case, the government (attorney general in certain states), or the plaintiffs pay. All are very unlikely.

I hope I understood your comment right. If not, woops, my bad. Haha. I am sure there is an ambulance chaser that would like to take this to try and get a quick settlement, but as many defense lawyers do, they will try to turn over every stone in defending the case, which costs a lot to respond to.

Such is the very sad (but lucrative) state of affairs in our judicial system.

I agree with everything you pointed out, and aware of BMW v Gore, but that was for excessive punitive damages. $4,000 actual and $4,000,000 punitive. Large companies will "delay, deny, and defend" and will appeal to avoid precedence/case law for others in the future to cite.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

I agree with everything you pointed out, and aware of BMW v Gore, but that was for excessive punitive damages. $4,000 actual and $4,000,000 punitive. Large companies will "delay, deny, and defend" and will appeal to avoid precedence/case law for others in the future to cite.

I get the distinction for punitive damages but if you are a plaintiff's lawyer, you wanna go for punitive, that is where the money is. Nevertheless, I use that as an example of how BMW NA will be unlikely to cave if sued.

And you are spot on with your assessment of large companies. Keeps me busy, that is for sure.

[mose121]

It's not BMW's responsibility to divulge anything to you. You can't buy a car from BMWNA. You buy a car from a franchise dealer. Therefore BMW has no legal accountability as to what a dealer employee tells you. It's the dealers legal responsibility to convey this information to potential buyers. BMWNA has nothing to do with it. They sell the cars to dealers who know exactly what they're buying. How they represent it is on the dealer.

Anyone who thinks any production car is going to hold up to a year of 4-5 days a week of hard track use without issues is crazy. A race car won't hold up long in those conditions and that's what they're meant to do from inception. I don't care what you have, M3 GTS, GT3 RS, etc, it doesn't matter. You cannot compare the stress levels the car is exposed to on the track to any car driven on the street. Clearly BMW knows the cost of repairing these cars better than anyone and it doesn't take a genius to realize that's why they will not offer extended warranty coverage in any form. They know the likelihood of losing their ass on major repairs is very high and doesn't make financial sense. Take it from me, they know better than you and have the data to back it up.

So if you get one at a huge discount, great. If not, I suggest you pass. But if you do decide to buy it then don't whine and cry when the car fails to meet your completely unrealistic expectations. That's why you get the discount and you get what you pay for. If it's an ///M car and was registered to BMW in NJ then there's a 99% chance it was a PDC or press car that was beaten day in and day out.

[noone]

Well said. Bottom line - Don't be a stupid idiot and buy these cars when there are other identical used cars available for the same price.

[Ibiza]

The PC M vehicles are serviced every 1,000 miles, that's some hard driving so a 5,000 mile PCD vehicle would have 4 services which would be the equivalent of over 50,000 miles- thus why no CPO for these vehicles as over 50k mileage is a hard exclusion.

Attached photo of a damaged M3 at the PC from December 2017 PCD.

When taking delivery of my X5M earlier this month at the PC (Jan 2018), the instructor didn't have us do a cool down lap after the track session.

[jdamon]

Very interesting thread as I am looking for my next set of wheels, and a second hand M3 with the competition package is high on my list. There are a couple, if not three cars for sale right now that are M school cars. I noticed this thread is lacking any updates from Datanerd, how is it going with your car? Have you had to have anything replaced yet? Very curious as to how it’s holding up. Thanks!

[lazybones18]

What was the verdict of this thread

was interested in this car but it was used by M school

http://cpo.bmwusa.com/used/2017-BMW-...2171?zip=91335

however, its a CPO

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by lazybones18

What was the verdict of this thread

was interested in this car but it was used by M school

http://cpo.bmwusa.com/used/2017-BMW-...2171?zip=91335

however, its a CPO

If it was an M performance school car it should not have been CPOd. Could have been an actual executive car or general manger car etc. doesn't necessarily mean it was a car meant for the track at the school. I'm sure others can chime in.

Also, are you sure it's a CPO. The CPO website also brings back non-CPO results.

Edit: just ran a search with the CPO filter and it doesn't show up.

[c0nrad]

anyone ever hear of leasing one of these? don't see any downside as they would be on the hook for all repairs

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by KLNLQIm

anyone ever hear of leasing one of these? don't see any downside as they would be on the hook for all repairs

I don't think you can

[lazybones18]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

If it was an M performance school car it should not have been CPOd. Could have been an actual executive car or general manger car etc. doesn't necessarily mean it was a car meant for the track at the school. I'm sure others can chime in.

Also, are you sure it's a CPO. The CPO website also brings back non-CPO results.

Edit: just ran a search with the CPO filter and it doesn't show up.

Yes you are right its non CPO ... so now give then.. should i even consider this car ?