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      01-06-2015, 07:56 PM   #89
purdyawesome
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My final .02 is that if AWD is a must-have in anyone's situation, the Audi S4 offers the absolute best alternative to an M3. Compromises with both- but in terms of practicality and price, the S4 gets the nod from this guy. Practicality and price happened to be far down on my list LOL.
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      01-06-2015, 08:09 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyawesome View Post
Pirelli Sottozero 255/18 front, 265/18 rear on stock 513m 18's. You can see the setup pics under my profile
Sorry to hear about your experiences, but mine have been the opposite. I have Xice 3s on my car and it has been fine this winter. I drive 60 miles round trip to work everyday and have had no issues. I don't know if it matters, but I have an undersized 18 inch 245/40 square setup on my car.

I believe the Sottozeros are a performance winter tire, which are going have less grip on snow and ice over a more dedicated winter tire. But, they are nicer when it is cold and dry out. It is harder for you guys to choose though as it gets warmer there than it does for us during the winter.

I do know that this car is much better than RWD pick ups I had in my younger years. And unbelievably better than a Sprinter work truck I use to drive for work from time to time. I don't know your history with RWD drive vehicles in the winter, but I find those with experience with them find this car more than adequate for the job.

Good luck the rest of the winter, hope it gets better for you with more time in the car.

Last edited by minn19; 01-06-2015 at 08:43 PM..
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      01-06-2015, 08:09 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absoluteis350 View Post
Sorry, english is my second language so I am not always clear.. To be more specific, what I meant was that if an AWD car with snow tires cannot get me to work in any condition that I would encounter in a metropolitan (northern climate) state, then an M3/4 certainly won't, and hence, should not be considered a "daily driver" for (some) of those that need to get to work regardless of the weather. (or maybe I should learn how to drive, ;P ) My issue is with the claim that it can be driven in snow as a "daily driver"... not by all, is my point.




It can be considered an (almost) daily driver, but, as you mention, there are far better cars out there that fill that role (and even fill in the gaps/weather the M4 would not work in). We both agree that the M3/4 can be used successfully in light snow. However, as the snow gets deeper and the conditions worsen, your performance envelope diminishes relative to an AWD car.



I thought (correct me if I am wrong), FWD is easier to drive in the snow given the same driver ability and tires? Something about pulling a weight vs pushing a weight, and the centering forces ??

Anyway, I agree, it is a perfectly practical car, that can be used in up to average snowy conditions. It certainly isn't a disaster, but (depending on your city, I suppose) one should not pretend you can get somewhere regardless of the weather. (although I suppose that statement too is open to interpretation.. how far do you need to go? What do you mean by 'get there' ? At what speed ? Are there any hills ? How steep ? Is there no salt areas on your way ? etc etc etc)
It isnt worse than an FWD car. We got about 4" of snow last night and a temperature drop (Too cold for salt to do anything) - just driving on snow and glare ice.

It was fine - no worse than the old FWD 1.8T jetta i used to have once i put snow tires on it.

Sure, I can't drive it like i would in dry summer pavement, but i cant drive ANY car like that in this weather - and if i tried, i'd be an idiot.

(yesterday i drove an AWD MB Wagon 400km through recently heavily snowed upon mountain passes, so have lots of fresh thoughts about how those cars drive too)

In bad weather, every car has to be driven for the conditions. I was driving the F80 today just like I would drive my old E90 328 xi (with winters) or the MB Wagon with winters or or my old Jetta (with winters). Yes, an AWD car has a bit more grip when starting up from a stop (so a slightly lighter touch on the accelerator with the F80) but beyond that, it was exactly like driving any of the other cars. Unless you are driving down unplowed country lanes, there seems to be no need to keep this one as a garage queen just because there are a few white flakes falling from the sky....
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      01-06-2015, 08:14 PM   #92
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Drove a good bit in 2" of fresh dry snow, some packed snow, sleet, cold slush (20 degrees out), and ice-dusted road surfaces throughout today - bout 160 miles total put on the car after it started snowing.

Michelin PA4.

My impression is quite good. Deliberate provocations yield immediate slipping - i.e. throttle stabbing, hard braking, sharp steering input with speed on slippery surface.

EDIT: After some more driving today in icy snow, I have to say that braking and turning seem good on 2" of it as well as packed snow, but acceleration in efficient mode quickly has DSC intervention happening constantly. I need to do more testing, but the tires seem to slip very quickly with modest throttle input in "icy snow" - moreso than I'd expect.

I went up my moderate incline driveway on packed icy snow tonight, 18 degrees out, and with steady low throttle input DSC intervened the entire way up. Now, I did go right up and I didn't require any momentum to do it. But it was non-stop slipping too.

I don't have lots of experience with snow tires like others.
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Last edited by JoeFromPA; 01-07-2015 at 07:37 PM..
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      01-06-2015, 08:25 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alms21 View Post
Unless you are cramped for storage/garage space and can only have one car, I just don't understand the rationale to drive a car like an M3/M4 in the snow. A 120K mile Grand Cherokee, 4Runner, et al will run you $10K and cost next to nothing to insure.........plus if you need to make a run to the Home Depot you have something to haul shit in. I've had my '04 AWD 4Runner Ltd for three years now (bought it used) and has 150k miles on it. Just couldn't imagine not having it.
I do have space/storage issues and no desire to pay insurance/maintenance for a third car that I would barely use.

Aside from that, I also bought this car for some of the creature comforts. I got in the car this morning and it was -10F below. Tomorrow on the way to work it is going to be worse. I turn on the heated steering wheel/seat and I'm comfortably warm pretty quickly. Not to mention having a nice stereo to listen to during my long commute and awesome seats. No way I'm spending this much on a car and giving it up to hop in a ten year old SUV. I love this car not just for the performance, but for what a great all around comfortable DD this car is. To each his own.
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      01-07-2015, 08:03 AM   #94
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I think that ideal winter driving setup is as below,

Blizzaks 18" square setup
Throttle: Efficient
Dampers: Comfort
Steering: Sport plus
MDCT: M1
DSC: ON

Avoid sudden movements, stay below 2000 rpm when driving on snow & ice

You're good to go
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      01-07-2015, 08:45 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absoluteis350 View Post
Sorry, english is my second language so I am not always clear.. To be more specific, what I meant was that if an AWD car with snow tires cannot get me to work in any condition that I would encounter in a metropolitan (northern climate) state, then an M3/4 certainly won't, and hence, should not be considered a "daily driver" for (some) of those that need to get to work regardless of the weather. (or maybe I should learn how to drive, ;P ) My issue is with the claim that it can be driven in snow as a "daily driver"... not by all, is my point.
I understand you now.

Of course, yes, the car isn't going to be a good choice of daily driver anywhere that similar cars would not be. If you live in a remote area and your neighbors are all driving Jeeps and other SUVs to work in the winter, that's a pretty good sign that you shouldn't try the same thing in an M3. On the other hand, if you are surrounded by legions of Cam-cords on your daily commute (like many of us are, myself included) you will be fine in an M3.

Quote:
It can be considered an (almost) daily driver, but, as you mention, there are far better cars out there that fill that role (and even fill in the gaps/weather the M4 would not work in). We both agree that the M3/4 can be used successfully in light snow. However, as the snow gets deeper and the conditions worsen, your performance envelope diminishes relative to an AWD car.
Certainly there are a small subset of winter situations one might encounter where an RS4 (just to continue using that car as an example) will get by and an M3 will not. But again, your neighbor in his Camry is similarly going nowhere as well in those same cases.

Quote:
I thought (correct me if I am wrong), FWD is easier to drive in the snow given the same driver ability and tires? Something about pulling a weight vs pushing a weight, and the centering forces ??
Well, "easier" is very subjective. I find FWD more difficult because I am very accustomed to throttle steering. The average driver, on the other hand, probably would prefer FWD over RWD. In my opinion, though, anyone who chooses to drive a high performance car - be it AWD, FWD, RWD - should really be familiarizing themselves with driving techniques as a compliment to their vehicle ownership.
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      01-07-2015, 08:50 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyawesome View Post
My final .02 is that if AWD is a must-have in anyone's situation, the Audi S4 offers the absolute best alternative to an M3. Compromises with both- but in terms of practicality and price, the S4 gets the nod from this guy. Practicality and price happened to be far down on my list LOL.
That's fair.

I will point out, however, that we'll never know one way or the other whether being in an S4 would have yielded any different results as far as your little mishap. And, for that matter, same thing goes for a Camcord.
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      01-07-2015, 10:31 PM   #97
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DC was caught unawares in the latest snowfall, and snowplows didn't get out until later in the morning. While I did get into work, it was not a pure joy, and certainly challenging. Can it be done? Of course. Should it be done? Maybe not given conditions and there being other traffic. As always, ymmv.
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      01-08-2015, 05:43 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Drove a good bit in 2" of fresh dry snow, some packed snow, sleet, cold slush (20 degrees out), and ice-dusted road surfaces throughout today - bout 160 miles total put on the car after it started snowing.

Michelin PA4.

My impression is quite good. Deliberate provocations yield immediate slipping - i.e. throttle stabbing, hard braking, sharp steering input with speed on slippery surface.

EDIT: After some more driving today in icy snow, I have to say that braking and turning seem good on 2" of it as well as packed snow, but acceleration in efficient mode quickly has DSC intervention happening constantly. I need to do more testing, but the tires seem to slip very quickly with modest throttle input in "icy snow" - moreso than I'd expect.

I went up my moderate incline driveway on packed icy snow tonight, 18 degrees out, and with steady low throttle input DSC intervened the entire way up. Now, I did go right up and I didn't require any momentum to do it. But it was non-stop slipping too.

I don't have lots of experience with snow tires like others.

Thanks for this update joe.
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      01-08-2015, 12:04 PM   #99
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http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pts/4759597733.html. Sorry if I posted in the wrong section, but there seems to be a lot more traffic here. I drove the m3 in the snow with stock 19s.! A big definite no no! Lol. Was wondering will these fit our car? 15 offset is very close to the fenders
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      01-08-2015, 04:34 PM   #100
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Sorry, more info...

I drove my wife's 2008 535xit which is ~4200-4400 pounds riding on 225/50/17 tires. The tires are brand new Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3's with maybe 2,000 miles on them.

Temp out this morning was 9 degrees fahrenheit which, to be fair, is much colder for an all-season than say 27 degree fahrenheit.

That being said, I can confirm the usual thoughts:

1. My f80 m3 on wider michelin PA4 snow tires with alot less weight on them can stop and turn much faster at this temperature and on packed snow than the e61.

2. The e61 can accelerate better on snow on flat and uphill terrain with far less spinning as a result of it's AWD.
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      01-08-2015, 05:55 PM   #101
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Didn't I read somewhere in my old 335i manual that DSC will naturally over-intervene in snow? The car doesn't know that snow is causing the slippage and therefore just thinks that it is excessive wheel spin, therefore engaging all the rectification measures.

I believe you are suppose to take it down to the next level, so for the F80x to MDM, but not completely off and this should help with traction, but not necessarily keeping you straight!
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      01-08-2015, 07:50 PM   #102
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I've had e46 M3, Z4M Coupe and have an e92 M3 that I daily drive in Toronto, all seasons. I plan to do the same with my F80 M3. A prerequisite is having good winter tires, and not necessarily narrower tires - I've always run winters in the same widths as the stock sizes.

Furthermore, while it sounds counter intuitive, turning on DSC and creating slip really helps move through snow, including hills.

Having DSC on while there is snow on the ground = no movement
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      01-08-2015, 11:01 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
I do have space/storage issues and no desire to pay insurance/maintenance for a third car that I would barely use.

Aside from that, I also bought this car for some of the creature comforts. I got in the car this morning and it was -10F below. Tomorrow on the way to work it is going to be worse. I turn on the heated steering wheel/seat and I'm comfortably warm pretty quickly. Not to mention having a nice stereo to listen to during my long commute and awesome seats. No way I'm spending this much on a car and giving it up to hop in a ten year old SUV. I love this car not just for the performance, but for what a great all around comfortable DD this car is. To each his own.
Well stated This is exactly why I drive mine all year round too - handled the very snowy Chicago roads great on way home from office tonight.
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      01-09-2015, 06:38 AM   #104
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Don't you love the slightly muffled engine and exhaust sound, when there is a couple inche of snow on the ground!

Last edited by Falafel Combo; 01-09-2015 at 07:36 AM..
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      01-09-2015, 08:11 AM   #105
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To echo what many have already said, the car works very well in the snow - traction, handling and ground clearance are all very good. The idea that you need or should have a winter car because of the Ms poor performance is completely false.
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      01-09-2015, 08:41 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falafel Combo View Post
Don't you love the slightly muffled engine and exhaust sound, when there is a couple inche of snow on the ground!
I hadn't noticed much to be honest. I keep mine on Sport+ so it's loud either way. I've never owned a car with as loud as an exhaust as this one (and have never had an aftermarket exhaust either). I admit, though I never really understood the fascination with exhaust volume, I do get a kick out of it in this car.
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      01-11-2015, 07:50 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyawesome View Post
My final .02 is that if AWD is a must-have in anyone's situation, the Audi S4 offers the absolute best alternative to an M3. Compromises with both- but in terms of practicality and price, the S4 gets the nod from this guy. Practicality and price happened to be far down on my list LOL.
435i xdrive or upcoming 440i xdrive would be a better pick if you need AWD.
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      01-11-2015, 09:13 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan
Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyawesome View Post
My final .02 is that if AWD is a must-have in anyone's situation, the Audi S4 offers the absolute best alternative to an M3. Compromises with both- but in terms of practicality and price, the S4 gets the nod from this guy. Practicality and price happened to be far down on my list LOL.
435i xdrive or upcoming 440i xdrive would be a better pick if you need AWD.
I'd take an S4 over the 435GC. Make no mistake, I'm a much bigger BMW fan- but I'm not a huge fan of the sport hatch style cars- with the exception of the A7. I prefer the 335xi to the 435....
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      01-19-2015, 06:01 AM   #109
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I must confess, I'm a bit unhappy with nature right now. Yes, nature.


Last winter I was driving both an MK6 GTI and my e92 M3. I had summer tires on the e92 so I did not dare drive it in the snow. The only time I did, I could not get it out of my flat driveway. So, I would tuck it away and drive the GTI when it snowed and put the GTI away when it was nice out. And I did that every few days, because we had TONS of snow last year (3 feet?). Well that got kind of old, and I ultimately decided to drive one car year round. Simply because I got tired of switching cars around.


Sold them both, got an f30 335i xDrive. Love it! Awesome car. I thought I was all set this winter and was looking forward to tackling some snow in the xDrive car. I've had one before and they do exceptionally well in bad weather. I felt pretty confident, come what may. Well, it's almost February and it has snowed maybe once around here. ONCE! And now that I'm selling the 335i to get an f80, I am POSITIVE we will get some record-breaking snow accumulation next year. It's almost like weather elements are conspiring against me. And I have proof that they have been.


Now I'm looking at selling the 335i xDrive for a $5-10k loss. (I'm looking at you mother nature) I could have just sold my GTI and kept the e92 this whole time. And not have to deal with all these scam attempt message I'm getting on a daily basis from my f30 listing. Seriously.


So to conclude. No snow next year. Ramp up the global warming machines. Lets have another "warmest year on record" next year. Should make it all right again.
Hugs and snuggles,
FC


Ok, that's my rant. Still looking forward to my f80!

Last edited by Falafel Combo; 01-19-2015 at 06:10 AM..
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      01-27-2015, 09:46 AM   #110
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Winter weather

Two observations from driving my F80 M3 with winter tires to work today.
1)- If you drive responsibly there should be no problems whatsoever, however be mindful of the other people on the road who aren't as responsible as you are.
2)-The parking sensors do not seem to work properly. The fronts are always showing that I am up as far as I can go. You know the beeping you get and the red light are always on. Even when I'm going in reverse. Probably because there is snow on the front bumper. But then I wiped it away from the sensors and it pretty much showed the same thing. I hope this is just because of the snow or I'll have to bring it in for adjustments.

Be careful out there fellow enthusiasts.
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