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      12-26-2013, 12:48 PM   #177
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This thread makes me LOL!

There will be no ECU remap tune for the S55 for at least 3 years after the M4 hits the streets. We're still waiting for a real remap to come out for the S63tu, nothing but broken promises. Piiggyback is the word of the day.

Anyways, the S55 just like the S63tu is going to be terrific right from the factory. So no need for a tune really. If you want tunability go to Mercedes. Those engines are highly tunable. Just need to open up the sound on these BMW engines a bit to get more enjoyment out of them.
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      12-26-2013, 02:48 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Try reading up on the engine history of previous M engines. If the only engines worthy of the M name is the S65/85, then yes the S55 is nothing special... Just like all of the I6 M engines before (with the exception of M88/S38)!

My N53b30 engine also shares many components such as valves, cams and pistons etc with a M engine. Just like ANY internal combustion engine!!!

A few corrections:

-Block is NOT the same as N55 (just like previous I6 M engines it's based on a production block, but is a different block with lower weight and no separate liners)
-Air to water (or indirect) intercoolers are much better both in effociency of cooling and to manage heat soak. Not to mention the short path there is from turbo to intake side on the S55 setup.
-F10 M5 serve as Ring taxis and seem to do ok with track duty (but generally speaking the F10 is too heavy)
-Even though the F10 has lost more comparisons than many of it's predecessors it has won quite a few as well. But the world is changing and when German magazines place the F10 second or lower because it lacks AWD, then maybe that shows that there either is to much power now or that next gen M5 will be AWD...

But, please do what pleases you! Buy an 737 or buy an F35, both can fly and do many of the same things. And I'm sure that if you modify the 737 it will perform close to a F35 in some disiplines JK
Good post, but in the US, the F10 has been KILLED by EVERY US mag... mostly because of the electric steering. It's not just Audi and MB killing it, the Caddy's are whipping it's ass too. Again, I'm not saying the S55 is the SAME as an N55, but it's pretty damn similar. Previous /M engines had a similar block but performed TOTALLY differently. You couldn't tune a comparable N engine to get to the S engines performance without adding a blower, and even then, it souldn't behave the same. So it goes back to the OP's question of "is it worth it?"
How many owners of the F8x are really going to track to car to make use of the extra cooling or built-up tranny?

.
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      12-26-2013, 02:50 PM   #179
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I think we can be pretty sure that BMW want to sell you factory tunes for the F8X. Milder tunes for sub $10k branded comp. packages and more aggressive tunes in form of special edition cars at a +$10k price tag. I also think the ECU is going to be even tougher to crack than the M5's taken that it has a few years newer tech. BMW has no incentive to make it easy for 3rd party tuners, rather the opposite.
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      12-26-2013, 03:07 PM   #180
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I don't understand this thing with people on the forums saying the S55 is a tuned up version of the N55, have you seen picture of both engines side by side??
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      12-26-2013, 03:16 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Good post, but in the US, the F10 has been KILLED by EVERY US mag... mostly because of the electric steering. It's not just Audi and MB killing it, the Caddy's are whipping it's ass too. Again, I'm not saying the S55 is the SAME as an N55, but it's pretty damn similar. Previous /M engines had a similar block but performed TOTALLY differently. You couldn't tune a comparable N engine to get to the S engines performance without adding a blower, and even then, it souldn't behave the same. So it goes back to the OP's question of "is it worth it?"
How many owners of the F8x are really going to track to car to make use of the extra cooling or built-up tranny?

.
Yes, the F10 M5 haven't received the same rave reviews by everyone that some of it's predecessors did.

The S55, however, will likely also behave TOTALLY different than a tuned N55. It has two turbo's, more direct and better airflow/intercooling, way better cooling system, way more advanced mapping than a tuned N55, way higher redline and NOT LEAST the anti lag function (try and tune that function in your N55 and see how that works out for you ).

All of the above creates a very different animal than the N55, tuned or not. IMHO the S55 will be just as different in it's behaviour from the N55 as the S50 was from the M50 or the S54 from the M54 (and I have driven both M50 and S50, M54 and S54 equipped cars. Believe me the major difference is sharper throttle response, more power and higher redline as well as better sound). All of which are traits the S55 should have over the N55 and which a N55 can't be "tuned" to achieve (like anti lag, twin turbos with more flow, better cooling, forged crank, high rpm redline etc).

And, the F8x either has DCT or if going with the MT6, that has the rev matching function on downshifts.

Last edited by Boss330; 12-26-2013 at 03:23 PM..
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      12-26-2013, 03:53 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snig View Post
Please stick with your S4.

And good luck tuning the ECU without getting flagged with the "TDI1" code.
I've never brought my S4 to the dealership so it is not TD1 flagged for aftermarket tune. It's a 2010 so the warranty ends in March 2014 anyway. The car has had zero issues. One oil change a year and brake fluid. My friend who has his e90 M3 is always at the dealer complaining about how they did this or that wrong. BMW maintenance is not really a "feature". It's the DMV of service departments. Mutually assured rudeness.

APR has put a 1.7 liter blower on the S4 to replace the factory 1.3 liter blower and it makes over 500 HP on a 3.0L block. It's not priced yet so I can't say whether I would go for that.

The 1M is the best car BMW has built to date, in terms of motorsports performance. Those cars always pull away from me on track, no matter who is driving them. They're nimble and fast. The M3 needs to build on this.

Anyone who says the S55 is not tunable has no experience with forced induction cars. It will be tunable but it will certainly require a cooling upgrade if you want to track the tune. It is funny that some people's favorite BMW is the 335d or 535d. They say they love torque so they put up with diesel. What they actually love is turbochargers, not diesel.

My E90 325i was faster around the track than a 335i only because most 335i could not finish a dozen laps if it was like 80 degrees out. I passed a lot of limpers.
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      12-26-2013, 03:58 PM   #183
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I wouldn't have added a tune to my 335is if it had the power that the s55 has and once I increased its power the chassis and brakes didn't handle it well. Why would we void our warranty on a new M4 by adding a tune and upsetting the balance of the cars chassis that BMW has been tweaking for the last year or so.
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      12-26-2013, 04:11 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbm3cab View Post
Why would we void our warranty on a new M4 by adding a tune and upsetting the balance of the cars chassis that BMW has been tweaking for the last year or so.
This is a question that can't be posed to serious car nuts. It's like asking a body builder why they need so much muscle...........or a chick why she needs a pair of fake tits.......or........or..........or! Modding is not an exercise in prudency.
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      12-26-2013, 04:15 PM   #185
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Modding is not an exercise in prudency.
Ain't that the truth. Myself, I can't see doing any power mods to my M4 (or M3 now, the M3 pics looks so damn good). I doubt I'll do anything besides a cosmetic thing here and there.
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      12-26-2013, 10:08 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Yes, the F10 M5 haven't received the same rave reviews by everyone that some of it's predecessors did.

The S55, however, will likely also behave TOTALLY different than a tuned N55. It has two turbo's, more direct and better airflow/intercooling, way better cooling system, way more advanced mapping than a tuned N55, way higher redline and NOT LEAST the anti lag function (try and tune that function in your N55 and see how that works out for you ).

All of the above creates a very different animal than the N55, tuned or not. IMHO the S55 will be just as different in it's behaviour from the N55 as the S50 was from the M50 or the S54 from the M54 (and I have driven both M50 and S50, M54 and S54 equipped cars. Believe me the major difference is sharper throttle response, more power and higher redline as well as better sound). All of which are traits the S55 should have over the N55 and which a N55 can't be "tuned" to achieve (like anti lag, twin turbos with more flow, better cooling, forged crank, high rpm redline etc).

And, the F8x either has DCT or if going with the MT6, that has the rev matching function on downshifts.
I hope your right Boss about the engine feeling totall different than other blown BMW I6 engines. I am excited to try the anti-lag, but the only time I really feel lag on the E90 335 is below 1,700 RPM.

I'm like ENZIO, exicted, but have major concerns about the new //M and the M5 isn't adding to my low confidence level in the new M3/4.

.
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      12-27-2013, 12:38 AM   #187
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2.0L engines easily put out 500hp to the wheels. Should be easy with a 3.0L and two extra cylinders.

That being said id want a more responsive engine and more throttle control with the new technology rather than trading that for more power.
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      12-27-2013, 01:12 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Yes, the F10 M5 haven't received the same rave reviews by everyone that some of it's predecessors did.

The S55, however, will likely also behave TOTALLY different than a tuned N55. It has two turbo's, more direct and better airflow/intercooling, way better cooling system, way more advanced mapping than a tuned N55, way higher redline and NOT LEAST the anti lag function (try and tune that function in your N55 and see how that works out for you ).

All of the above creates a very different animal than the N55, tuned or not. IMHO the S55 will be just as different in it's behaviour from the N55 as the S50 was from the M50 or the S54 from the M54 (and I have driven both M50 and S50, M54 and S54 equipped cars. Believe me the major difference is sharper throttle response, more power and higher redline as well as better sound). All of which are traits the S55 should have over the N55 and which a N55 can't be "tuned" to achieve (like anti lag, twin turbos with more flow, better cooling, forged crank, high rpm redline etc).

And, the F8x either has DCT or if going with the MT6, that has the rev matching function on downshifts.
I hope your right Boss about the engine feeling totall different than other blown BMW I6 engines. I am excited to try the anti-lag, but the only time I really feel lag on the E90 335 is below 1,700 RPM.

I'm like ENZIO, exicted, but have major concerns about the new //M and the M5 isn't adding to my low confidence level in the new M3/4.

.
There is definitely throttle lag (throttle depressed but a lag in response) and turbo lag (why there is a sudden surge in power delivery). Unless you have some sort of special edition 335i
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      12-27-2013, 06:29 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post

...


I'm concerned that it isn't even appropriate to run 500 HP through a RWD car with 255 tires and hollow output shafts (for weight savings). And lastly I'm concerned that there is probably $30,000 of profit in this car (loaded) so I'm not really sure what I'm buying over a 328i with halogens and incandescent bulbs.


Someone talk me out of this line of thinking.


You're actually doing pretty good on your own here. Continue, please.
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      12-27-2013, 07:30 AM   #190
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I think we can get 50-70 whp with proper software and bolt ons.
Consider this new m4 weighs less then 1500kg it is even enough torque and power with the stock setup. But for those who want to push things further,there is space with s55!!!
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      12-27-2013, 01:10 PM   #191
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I've been able to deal with a 7200 RPM fuel cutoff on my S4 with no issue on most tracks. I usually drive the track in 4th until I learn it, then find a few places to bump down to 3rd when my line is ironed out. Honestly there is so much torque in a forced induction car you're just overworking and overheating the engine running it over 6000 RPM all day in 3rd. If you have open track in front of you, just drop into 4th as soon as the wheel is straight.

I've seen a few new M5 and new M6 out on track. They are basically running the same times as the X5 M and the X6 M. The SUV is a touch heavier but has more torque, IIRC. I just realized that yesterday thinking back through my weekends at Laguna Seca with the BMW CCA.
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      12-27-2013, 02:02 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwm3redblack View Post
Consider this new m4 weighs less then 1500kg.
Please do not forget that 1500 kg is in no way "apples to apples" with the current car (or most official OEM specs). This figure is sans driver. A much better comparison is that the MT car is "80 kg lighter" than the current (MT) car, thus about 3470 lb (1575 kg).
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      12-27-2013, 02:22 PM   #193
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I've never really been interested in high end turbo cars, it has always been the NA exotics that make my heart skip a beat. Question for the turbo car fanatics here, what is the stock street legal turbo car with 3 liter or less displacement with the best throttle response ever built no matter brand or price?
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      12-27-2013, 02:48 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
I've been able to deal with a 7200 RPM fuel cutoff on my S4 with no issue on most tracks. I usually drive the track in 4th until I learn it, then find a few places to bump down to 3rd when my line is ironed out. Honestly there is so much torque in a forced induction car you're just overworking and overheating the engine running it over 6000 RPM all day in 3rd. If you have open track in front of you, just drop into 4th as soon as the wheel is straight.

I've seen a few new M5 and new M6 out on track. They are basically running the same times as the X5 M and the X6 M. The SUV is a touch heavier but has more torque, IIRC. I just realized that yesterday thinking back through my weekends at Laguna Seca with the BMW CCA.
If you by a "touch" heavier mean 435kg or 960lbs, then yes the X6M is a "touch" heavier...

Both the M5 and X5/6M have 680Nm of torque, the M5 over a broader rev range.

If the M5's run the same times as the X5/6M then I'm pretty sure that has to do with the drivers and not the cars...
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      12-27-2013, 03:51 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Please do not forget that 1500 kg is in no way "apples to apples" with the current car (or most official OEM specs). This figure is sans driver. A much better comparison is that the MT car is "80 kg lighter" than the current (MT) car, thus about 3470 lb (1575 kg).
So is this mean that new m4 1495 kg is not really true? Or you just compare the weight of new and old car?
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      12-27-2013, 04:26 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwm3redblack
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Please do not forget that 1500 kg is in no way "apples to apples" with the current car (or most official OEM specs). This figure is sans driver. A much better comparison is that the MT car is "80 kg lighter" than the current (MT) car, thus about 3470 lb (1575 kg).
So is this mean that new m4 1495 kg is not really true? Or you just compare the weight of new and old car?
Honestly, we're going to need some weights recorded independently on certified scales before we ever know the "truth," but it's likely that a 1495 kg car--without driver--is possible given the lightest configuration for the car.

With that said, swamp was trying to point out that this weight figure is not "apples to apples" with the last generation M3. The last "official" weight figure included 75 kg for driver and cargo. There are a few long threads on M3Post that go into detail about this "listed official weight" issue.
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      01-01-2014, 03:15 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
I've seen a few new M5 and new M6 out on track. They are basically running the same times as the X5 M and the X6 M. The SUV is a touch heavier but has more torque, IIRC. I just realized that yesterday thinking back through my weekends at Laguna Seca with the BMW CCA.
Uhm...no they don't. If there was a novice driver in the m6 and an experienced one in the X6 M, I could see the X6 maybe overtaking...but to say the X6 M performs the same as the M6, or even the M5, on the track is thoroughly wrong.

Base M6 also has the same torque as the X6M, though it gets more with the competition package.

Last edited by Patronus86; 01-01-2014 at 03:22 PM..
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      01-01-2014, 03:28 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powaup View Post
I don't understand this thing with people on the forums saying the S55 is a tuned up version of the N55, have you seen picture of both engines side by side??
I have seen pictures of both, but none side by side. Do you have such a pic? Please share. It would be instructive.


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