Why such disagreement over the M4 GTS?

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by 786

Thanks, any idea what "road" height is? I will definitely push the car so don't want to go too soft either. Livable works, car won't be a dd by any stretch.

Check to see if it's at C clip ride height. Details here under "Vehicle height setting" https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/at...6&d=1480949206

[Darth One]

I do think we’ve gone over this same ground quite a bit during the GTS’s lifetime. But always happy to continue the discussion.

I’ve said before that BMW’s greatest mistake with the GTS was the pricing. I don’t know if they’ve overtly stated it, but it seems like they took square aim at the GT3 by pricing it that way. And you need to be pretty damn special to compete in that class. And to me it doesn’t stack up - the steering feel and spiky throttle are its biggest offenses, along with the extremely stupid burble tune. Plus you’re starting from the base of a large 3-series sedan, not an uncompromised sports car in the 911.

But as a $80k used car? Or if they priced it lower? No one can get a late-model GT3 for that much so suddenly this thing is without any peers. And I can live with my car being “better than anything except a GT3”. i have a GT3 (albeit a 997) and a GT4 anyway so i have all the best cars

I’ve basically been a Porsche and BMW fan my whole driving life and i don’t actually know if I’ve owned more cars from one or the other. So it amuses me when these big fights break out on this site. I will say that Porsche listens a lot better to their customers. BMW has completely lost its shit IMO and that’s why i am vehemently opposed to the censorship that’s happening on these forums now. It’s the only way that a lot of people can give feedback and hold BMW accountable, and this customer data is worth its weight in gold for the company, even though they may not choose to accept it. Sure, there are Porsche trolls but i can commit that whenever i get very critical of BMW, it’s because of my love for the brand and i can’t hold my tongue when i feel that they are damaging it.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Darth One

BMW has completely lost its shit IMO and that’s why i am vehemently opposed to the censorship that’s happening on these forums now. It’s the only way that a lot of people can give feedback and hold BMW accountable, and this customer data is worth its weight in gold for the company, even though they may not choose to accept it. Sure, there are Porsche trolls but i can commit that whenever i get very critical of BMW, it’s because of my love for the brand and i can’t hold my tongue when i feel that they are damaging it.

+1 but apparently to no avail.

[786]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

The car shipped in the road height. You have to remove the collars and drop the perches to the "race" height. Chances are your car is in the road height by default.

I want to say there are some fender to ground height measurements in the supplementary GTS manual detailing these heights.

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Check to see if it's at C clip ride height. Details here under "Vehicle height setting" https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/at...6&d=1480949206

Thanks to you both, looks like I found the right settings to start with (pic attached).

[786]

Originally Posted by Darth One

But as a $80k used car? Or if they priced it lower? No one can get a late-model GT3 for that much so suddenly this thing is without any peers. And I can live with my car being “better than anything except a GT3”.

Ya, as an $80k used car nothing can touch it imo. I have looked at every alternative. The only thing that comes close is the earlier 2011 C63 Black Series but there were like 75 imported to the US so its not only difficult to find but used prices vary widely. Also, you definitely can't get a 991.1 GT3 for that price retail (at auction maybe) but even if you could the motor issues put me off.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by 786

I was also a bit surprised by Harris' review, who I've read/watched for many years and is one of the best journos out there. But Catchpole's comments seemed aimed directly at him:

Next problem: the set up. The M4 GTS has adjustable suspension and this can lead to a certain amount of discrepancy in the handling characteristics of different cars. The BMW UK press fleet has two M4 GTSs, a white one and a grey one, and having driven both I can attest that they are set up differently (or they were when I last drove them). In simple terms, the white one was much more secure and found much greater traction, which is a nice way of saying that it was very hard to do big skids in it. Being surprisingly hard to slide might not have enamoured it to certain road testers...

I too was a bit dumbfounded by Harris treatment of the car, driving on Cup 2 drifting through several inches of water, throwing up his hands.

The rest of the stuff I have seen he seems more level.

[JLS_397K]

Yeah, the Darth one has a good point... the thing with Porsche is that can always beat themselves... Some how the keep pulling rabbits out a small hat when ever we come near a near car/chassis design for the year. I have never owned a Porsche, just driven at the experience centers, my dad is infatuated with Porsche ever since he worked at a Porsche shop back in the 70s... he too owns BMW but loves Porsche. I respect their brand.

BMW does have a lot of Love-Hate relationship with its customers rather than the loyalty such as Porsche or GM(Corvette.) But the numbers we see at Car events and track days definitely show that BMW M has something going for it.... I don't see Mercedes and Audi at the Track near me, just cars and coffees really...

I got lucky with my GTS, I bought it new, for roughly $93K about 1.5 years ago... first owner, full warranty...It was just sitting there for 3 years damn near, in a BMW showroom.

The GTS may not be THE car to have among some people on these forums... but if you know what you want and what to expect,... its worth it.

You can make other M4s like a GTS, but it will never be a M4 GTS. That isnt to crap on other M4s, just acknowledging the facts.... meaning, If you pull up to a stop light... more likely the guy in a M3/M4 (modded or not) will look at the GTS for its rarity, but the guy in the GTS may not look at the M4 with the same,... emotion? Pation? Want?, (little lost for word but you guys may get what i am saying)

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

GTS should have come with a set of these in the trunk for tinkering purposes. Mine lives on these.

https://www.quickjack.com/uses/home-car-lift/

Oh my lord I've been looking for something like Quick Jack! Thank you! Ordering tonight After measuring the car lift points and tire distances.

EDIT

Looks like the B5000 SLX is the one, what model did you get?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Oh my lord I've been looking for something like Quick Jack! Thank you! Ordering tonight After measuring the car lift points and tire distances.

EDIT

Looks like the B5000 SLX is the one, what model did you get?

The 5000 is the one to get. I've had one for years. Super reliable, makes car work so much easier

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The 5000 is the one to get. I've had one for years. Super reliable, makes car work so much easier

Curious about the regular vs extended version - seems like either one would work.

I measured the distance between these which must be the lift points, yes? (See pic)

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Darth One

I’ve said before that BMW’s greatest mistake with the GTS was the pricing. I don’t know if they’ve overtly stated it, but it seems like they took square aim at the GT3 by pricing it that way. And you need to be pretty damn special to compete in that class. And to me it doesn’t stack up - the steering feel and spiky throttle are its biggest offenses, along with the extremely stupid burble tune. Plus you’re starting from the base of a large 3-series sedan, not an uncompromised sports car in the 911.

But as a $80k used car? Or if they priced it lower?.

I struggle with your pricing analogies.

Starting at the end, it isn't realistic to have priced it at 80k. A regular M4 starts at 70k. With typical options plenty are 85k+. That's simply the cost. How could BMW have sold the GTS for significantly cheaper? Do you think 120k would have made a difference?

What do you think should have been the new price of the GTS. 100k? For ccbs, 3 way suspension, 50hp more, cf hood, bespoke uprights? When you option a zcp f82 to that anyway?

Its performance took aim at the GT3 but its price did not, unless you can point me to then-new 991 GT3s with CCBs for 130k.
The GT3 starts at 150. People who say the GTS 'costs like a GT3' must mean to write 'minus 50k' but forget to write the second part.

Every few months C&D tests a 991, the prices in those tests show what Porsches sell for. 130k for a 992 4?
What is a normal price for the 4 cyl 718 GTS? 90k?

The M4 GTS sold new for significantly less than the 991 GTS average transaction price, but still, no one cares. Before one person had driven it there were thousands of posts -in the BMW forum of all places- with people whining and saying how they're insecure of their manhoods and would only buy a Porsche for that price.
That does not reflect a problem of special-ness, it reflects a fantastic marketing job from Porsche. That all this criticism is there prior to first drives tells me this issue has nothing to do with driving feel and performance and everything to do with badges in front of the car and insecurities

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Curious about the regular vs extended version - seems like either one would work.

I measured the distance between these which must be the lift points, yes? (See pic)

I have the SLX, I've even used it for my X5

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Oh my lord I've been looking for something like Quick Jack! Thank you! Ordering tonight After measuring the car lift points and tire distances.

EDIT

Looks like the B5000 SLX is the one, what model did you get?

Yep, standard length 5000 is the one. Garage where I had some work done had the 3500, I think. The support platforms weren't quite long enough to be an ideal fit with the jack points.

5000 you can set the blocks up about halfway in each front & back platform slot, matches up perfectly with the M4's jack points. And it's more capacity than we need as well, so less paranoia sliding under. The locking mechanism is bulletproof on either model, but nevertheless...

[4play]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

But the C&D test is what's been cited as representative of the GTS's track performance potential.

I have my issues with the annual Motor Trend track testing format as well, but some of the GTS lap times from back around release are a joke.

Yeah, looks like Randy was 2 to 2.5 seconds faster than the C&D guys. In theory, the amateur nature of the drivers conducting Lightning Lap should be an equalizer, but often is not, particularly in the case of spiky cars (M4 GTS) or cars which respond better to a non-standard driving method (AWD stuff).

Originally Posted by 786

. Also, you definitely can't get a 991.1 GT3 for that price retail (at auction maybe) but even if you could the motor issues put me off.

Porsche recalled and replaced the engine on every car with the early build finger follower issues, so it's actually not a problem. The warranty was more to assuage a very loyal/vocal owners group.

Problem for me with the 991.1 is the price. About double what I paid for similar mileage (30k+ range). No thanks.

[786]

Originally Posted by 4play

Porsche recalled and replaced the engine on every car with the early build finger follower issues, so it's actually not a problem. The warranty was more to assuage a very loyal/vocal owners group.

Problem for me with the 991.1 is the price. About double what I paid for similar mileage (30k+ range). No thanks.

The replacement engines have blown up too, now Porsche guys talk about which series of engine they have (E, F, G, etc) so it’s actually still a problem. And they sometimes replaced them with reconditioned engines as well. Tons of threads about this on RL. 991.2 GT3/RS engines are failing too.

I’ve had several Porsches, I like the brand but don’t have the time nor the inclination to deal with this kind of bs. I also don’t want to have this in the back of my head while I’m hammering on the car. With a 9k redline and that sound I’d be on it all the time.

Do you have a GTS with 30k miles? If so, wow that’s the highest I’ve ever heard of. I’m sure you got a great deal on it. I wouldn’t pay double for a 991.1 GT3 either.

[Darth One]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I struggle with your pricing analogies.

Starting at the end, it isn't realistic to have priced it at 80k. A regular M4 starts at 70k. With typical options plenty are 85k+. That's simply the cost. How could BMW have sold the GTS for significantly cheaper? Do you think 120k would have made a difference?

What do you think should have been the new price of the GTS. 100k? For ccbs, 3 way suspension, 50hp more, cf hood, bespoke uprights? When you option a zcp f82 to that anyway?

Its performance took aim at the GT3 but its price did not, unless you can point me to then-new 991 GT3s with CCBs for 130k.
The GT3 starts at 150. People who say the GTS 'costs like a GT3' must mean to write 'minus 50k' but forget to write the second part.

Every few months C&D tests a 991, the prices in those tests show what Porsches sell for. 130k for a 992 4?
What is a normal price for the 4 cyl 718 GTS? 90k?

The M4 GTS sold new for significantly less than the 991 GTS average transaction price, but still, no one cares. Before one person had driven it there were thousands of posts -in the BMW forum of all places- with people whining and saying how they're insecure of their manhoods and would only buy a Porsche for that price.
That does not reflect a problem of special-ness, it reflects a fantastic marketing job from Porsche. That all this criticism is there prior to first drives tells me this issue has nothing to do with driving feel and performance and everything to do with badges in front of the car and insecurities

The 2016 GT3 and 2016 M4 GTS had nearly exactly the same base MSRP. $131k and $134k. Yes, that’s before the Porsche options book, but this is how journalists and automakers create comparisons. I don’t believe that was accidental on the part of BMW.

How much should they have priced it? I dont know, i can tell you that i was a buyer at 90-100k. From what i read that’s where a lot of owners bought in. But maybe BMW got enough full-MSRP buyers that they think they priced it just right. That’s the way the auto, and general retail, industries work.

You seem to think that i think BMW priced it wrong. I don’t think that, per se. all I’m saying is that they priced it in a way that drove the comparisons to GT3’s and AMG GT’s.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by 4play

Yeah, looks like Randy was 2 to 2.5 seconds faster than the C&D guys. In theory, the amateur nature of the drivers conducting Lightning Lap should be an equalizer, but often is not, particularly in the case of spiky cars (M4 GTS) or cars which respond better to a non-standard driving method (AWD stuff).

That's the gap over roughly the first 1/2 of the lap.

Right, some performance cars are immediately easier to figure approaching the limit, others much harder. Combine am drivers with time restrictions testing more difficult cars, and in the case of the GTS, no setup adjustments, and the results are junk.

Check this out. am to pro gap is 2x greater in the GT R despite the fact that the RS was equipped with shot tires.

[4play]

Originally Posted by 786

Do you have a GTS with 30k miles? If so, wow that’s the highest I’ve ever heard of. I’m sure you got a great deal on it. I wouldn’t pay double for a 991.1 GT3 either.

It was 33k miles when I purchased, but it's closer to 36k miles now. As far as I can tell, the highest mileage GTS in the world.

I'll probably put 12-15k a year on it too, so I don't see anyone catching me any time soon.

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Check this out. am to pro gap is 2x greater in the GT R despite the fact that the RS was equipped with shot tires.

The RS is probably on Cup 2s, so the tires having less tread is actually a benefit, assuming they weren't heat cycled out. That "90% worn" comment made no sense to me - they weren't driving in heavy rain or standing water. If anything, less tread block movement means the tire will take longer to overheat.

But, it is a good demonstration of how an amateur will struggle with a spikier car.

[786]

Originally Posted by 4play

It was 33k miles when I purchased, but it's closer to 36k miles now. As far as I can tell, the highest mileage GTS in the world.

I'll probably put 12-15k a year on it too, so I don't see anyone catching me any time soon.

Holy shit! You are enjoying that car to the fullest

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by 4play

It was 33k miles when I purchased, but it's closer to 36k miles now. As far as I can tell, the highest mileage GTS in the world.

I'll probably put 12-15k a year on it too, so I don't see anyone catching me any time soon.

The RS is probably on Cup 2s, so the tires having less tread is actually a benefit, assuming they weren't heat cycled out. That "90% worn" comment made no sense to me - they weren't driving in heavy rain or standing water. If anything, less tread block movement means the tire will take longer to overheat.

But, it is a good demonstration of how an amateur will struggle with a spikier car.

Great to hear that at least one GTS is being driven a lot!

I'll be working to catch up with you but I've got a long ways to go. And I only drive it on the weekends since there's no enjoyment in sitting on the interstate on the way to work in that car, however, I do have a track day scheduled in early December, Definitely looking forward to that. My first ever.

[Lienrocs]

Originally Posted by h_bakken

Great to hear that at least one GTS is being driven a lot!

I'll be working to catch up with you but I've got a long ways to go. And I only drive it on the weekends since there's no enjoyment in sitting on the interstate on the way to work in that car, however, I do have a track day scheduled in early December, Definitely looking forward to that. My first ever.

I put almost 11k miles on my second (current) GTS in a year and almost 8k in my first one in the two and a bit years I had it. They're fantastic cars. Fast as, I feel cool driving it and you can still get a normal amount of things in it which makes it as practical as any other sedan not counting the lack of rear seats.

As far as pricing and perception is concerned I think there are two bug factors that hampered it in the states. BMW built and brought in another 100 cars over the 300 they said were coming so many that weren't pre sold ended up sitting on lots and nobody wanted to buy them because two journalists whose words everyone takes as gospel disliked the cars in a single track test each, respectively. It's a real shame because the car is something else to an M4. The engine mapping makes the S55 feel radically different to an aftermarket tuned S55 (I had a DINAN stage 3 Jahre at the same time as my frozen GTS which was faster in a straight line but was uninspiring) and I've driven other tuned cars and they feel worlds apart.

On top of that the tech BMW used on the GTS is so dang cool and forward thinking. I get that the water injection is a bit finicky but it does exactly what it's supposed to do. I've had two track days in the last 3 weeks in palm desert and inlet temperatures both days (107 degrees and 91 degrees) were below ambient. If a different manufacturer pulled that trick off people would be losing their minds.

As far as speed goes, throw some non star spec cup 2's on an otherwise stock car and I'd wager it'd put down near identical lap times as the .1 GT3.

The only fault I can give BMW would be lack of front camber adjustment which is so easily to fix that it's a minor annoyance rather than an unforgivable mistake and it's only relevant if you're going to the track anyways.

[h_bakken]

Originally Posted by Lienrocs

I put almost 11k miles on my second (current) GTS in a year and almost 8k in my first one in the two and a bit years I had it. They're fantastic cars. Fast as, I feel cool driving it and you can still get a normal amount of things in it which makes it as practical as any other sedan not counting the lack of rear seats.

As far as pricing and perception is concerned I think there are two bug factors that hampered it in the states. BMW built and brought in another 100 cars over the 300 they said were coming so many that weren't pre sold ended up sitting on lots and nobody wanted to buy them because two journalists whose words everyone takes as gospel disliked the cars in a single track test each, respectively. It's a real shame because the car is something else to an M4. The engine mapping makes the S55 feel radically different to an aftermarket tuned S55 (I had a DINAN stage 3 Jahre at the same time as my frozen GTS which was faster in a straight line but was uninspiring) and I've driven other tuned cars and they feel worlds apart.

On top of that the tech BMW used on the GTS is so dang cool and forward thinking. I get that the water injection is a bit finicky but it does exactly what it's supposed to do. I've had two track days in the last 3 weeks in palm desert and inlet temperatures both days (107 degrees and 91 degrees) were below ambient. If a different manufacturer pulled that trick off people would be losing their minds.

As far as speed goes, throw some non star spec cup 2's on an otherwise stock car and I'd wager it'd put down near identical lap times as the .1 GT3.

The only fault I can give BMW would be lack of front camber adjustment which is so easily to fix that it's a minor annoyance rather than an unforgivable mistake and it's only relevant if you're going to the track anyways.

Agree it's a very special car, i'm so glad I picked mine up.

There is another car on the road with water injection — Porsche GT2RS!

Interesting one of the Moto journalists Chris Harris who hated the M4 GTS partially due to its high price I think just ranked the M2CS in his top three, which also includes 992 Porsche Turbo S.

Top Gear commented that the CS is overpriced when compared with the M2 competition.

So interesting.

Also probably a dumb question but what is wrong with the Star Cup 2 (compared with non star)

I just had new star version put on all four when I got my water injection system replaced.

Now keep in mind I've never been to the track, my first track day is likely going to be second week in December but the car is primarily a weekend road driver. At least for now.