Now w/ Exhaust Sounds -2016 911 370Hp 3.0 Turbo(base) vs M4

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by kdphan

did you mean 2 tons?

Half a ton more weight than an M3/M4.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

Do you compare your self with most of the world, or you compare your self to people who have been around fast cars most of their life?

I am sure the guy stepping out of his mini van into a base 911 will think its plenty fast. But i have been driving M cars, muslce cars, Japanese sports cars my whole life. spending 90k on a base 911 is simply not worth the money IF performance is high on your value system.

only 911 i would buy is the turbo or GT3, and thats why i am not driving one.

I simple see more value in a 65k M4 than a 90k base 911.

I agree 100% with this statement.

I will also bet that there are many Porsche enthusiasts who will loathe this transformation. I know of more than a few M owners that went from BMW to Porsche STRICTLY for the NA vs FI

Can't wait to see the comments from the E9X M3 guys that glom on to this FI Porsche when they shit all over the F8X M for going FI. I will guaranty you it happens.

[Karmic Man]

Get real...if someone don't need rear seats of course the 911 would be superior even as a DD.

The dynamics of the 991 is far superior as evident from the pre-face lifted 991 VS M4 comparisons and now the gap would be even wider. Check on these improvements

1. Optional rear-wheel steering system
2. Newly tuned PASM system which provides a 10mm reduction in nominal ride allied to wider 11.5 inch wide rear wheels (Carrera S at 305mm)
3. New front bumper with active air ducts that close at speeds above 15km/h and then open again at 170km/h

The base and S are Porsche's bread and butter in the 911 range so of course they will make sure that they get them right and I have no doubt that they will.

[jlevy73]

Originally Posted by kdphan

the term "value" is very subjective

Nothing can beat the value of a C7 Z06

I just spec'd out the new C7 Z06 and it was about $108K. I do agree though, the performance on that car is absolutely bonkers and even at that price, it's super car status indeed.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by jlevy73

I just spec'd out the new C7 Z06 and it was about $108K. I do agree though, the performance on that car is absolutely bonkers and even at that price, it's super car status indeed.

Dude you must have checked every box. because the car i would drive came out to be 85k. at 85k you are getting ferrari numbers.

at 90k 911 you are getting BMW M numbers.

[DocWeatherington]

[jlevy73]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

Dude you must have checked every box. because the car i would drive came out to be 85k. at 85k you are getting ferrari numbers.

at 90k 911 you are getting BMW M numbers.

I checked the boxes that I would want in my C7, although yeah I did go for the 3LZ trim (and the performance package). But I can see how you could walk away with one for 85K. Even at 100K you are still getting Ferrari numbers and most definitely a car that will make most grown men poo in their pants.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

I agree 100% with this statement.

I will also bet that there are many Porsche enthusiasts who will loathe this transformation. I know of more than a few M owners that went from BMW to Porsche STRICTLY for the NA vs FI

Can't wait to see the comments from the E9X M3 guys that glom on to this FI Porsche when they shit all over the F8X M for going FI. I will guaranty you it happens.

No $h-t, right!!???!? I have no doubt that the 991.2's will be fantastic cars and very fun to drive. Like I've said before, I've test driven the base 991.1 - the sales rep who went on the test dive with me was super cool - let me do a very "spirited" test drive on some back roads and on the highway and let me rev it out. Car was pretty fun and pretty fast above 5,000 rpm's...

BUT...

Below 5,000 rpms, it felt not one bit faster than my 4100 lb E93. In fact, over 5,000 rpms, it felt only slightly faster than my E93. Subjectively speaking, my F80 feels (subjectively) a million times faster, and is a million times more fun to drive, at least off the track (only 911 I've driven on a track is the 991 GT3 - holy cow - what a car - revving that thing out to 9,000 rpm at each shift - amazing)!!!! When I drove away from the dealer in my E93, I honestly thought my E93 was more fun to drive than the base 991.1 Carrera. I have never driven the 991.1 S, but I'm sure that was much more exciting than the base model both on and off the track...

That being said - and based upon that experience, my prediction is that many people will think that the 991.2 base and S Carreras will be much more fun to drive off the track vs. the 991.1 (I'm going to test drive a "base" 991.2 Carrera when it is available just to do an "apples to apples" comparison vs. the 991.1 base model - looking forward to it)!

And yes - the hypocrisy of those who wouldn't even give the F8x generation a chance for the simple reason that it is turbocharged is going to become apparent here very quickly.

[solstice]

Similarly equipped I'd think you get a GTR or Z06 for the price of a Carrera and an M3 for a bit more than half the price of the Carrera. The GTR and Z06 destroys the P-car performance wise and M3 has more creature comfort for the street and nearly matches it's performance. The Carrera is still a very attractive package as a mix of looks, performance, quality and status but I also think it's fair to question if 370hp and 340 TQ isn't on the low side? At $100k reasonably equipped and a purpose built sports car it should probably be a fair bit faster than the M3. The S seems like a better buy but I do think Porsche is being stingy with the engines especially now when the aural drama of a NA engine is gone. FI is mainly about power and it's just doesn't seem that impressive.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by solstice

Similarly equipped I'd think you get a GTR or Z06 for the price of a Carrera and an M3 for a bit more than half the price of the Carrera. The GTR and Z06 destroys the P-car performance wise and M3 has more creature comfort for the street and nearly matches it's performance. The Carrera is still a very attractive package as a mix of looks, performance, quality and status but I also think it's fair to question if 370hp and 340 TQ isn't on the low side? At $100k reasonably equipped and a purpose built sports car it should probably be a fair bit faster than the M3. The S seems like a better buy but I do think Porsche is being stingy with the engines especially now when the aural drama of a NA engine is gone. FI is mainly about power and it's just doesn't seem that impressive.

i was kind of excited to hear 911 went turbo because i thought a 911S would now have 500HP. nope just 20 more HP lame...

[brava09]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

i was kind of excited to hear 911 went turbo because i thought a 911S would now have 500HP. nope just 20 more HP lame...

Lame? How about the F80 M3 who went turbo with only 11 HP more?

If they offered 500 HP to the 911S, what would they do with the 911 Turbo? There's some hierarchy in Porsche range, just as there is one in BMW range as well (M3 needs to have less HP than M5).

[M4GTS]

There are loads of objective metrics out there. If you believe that dyno measurements inflate the actual outputs then that doesn't prevent the relative outputs being measured.

There's also real world experience and observable acceleration numbers.

I don't disagree on your statement about the 911 making more than the advertised output. I bemoan the loss of the NA engine and the fact that the new engine (on paper, at least) looks to be less of an engineering achievement than the competition.

Here's a good objective assessment:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1038740

[Karmic Man]

Figures are just figures.

The driving experience alone will tell a lot about the engine. We can't get that by just reading into a figure. We can do an estimation with a lot of figures but we don't have them here.

If anyone knows about turbo charging its Porsche and I have no doubt the new engine would be stellar. With the substantial increased in low and mid range torque (area under the power curve), the difference would be much more prominent than just reading into a peak HP figure.

I don't believe in those dyno figures in the view of measuring absolute power because simply they are not consistent with too many variations build in around error corrections. They are only useful for comparisons at the time of tuning a car on the same day.

[997usa]

The 911 and the 991 in particular are probably the best cars on the road. Regardless of power comparison, the build quality, the handling, the timeless styling are, IMO, outstanding.

I have always been a BMW fan and have had my fair share of 316i-Z4-740i-M5-M4 and also my fair share of 911's (997.1, 997.2, 991) and I can say that while I love the M4, the 991 is a tantalizing package.

[M3guy3]

Originally Posted by brava09

Lame? How about the F80 M3 who went turbo with only 11 HP more?

If they offered 500 HP to the 911S, what would they do with the 911 Turbo? There's some hierarchy in Porsche range, just as there is one in BMW range as well (M3 needs to have less HP than M5).

the M3 gained A LOT of TQ. plus we all know the F80 could easily be underrated.

I just feel a 100k+ 911S should have 500HP. thats where i would start saying the car is fast enough to be worth the money for street driven people.

[brava09]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

the M3 gained A LOT of TQ. plus we all know the F80 could easily be underrated.

I just feel a 100k+ 911S should have 500HP. thats where i would start saying the car is fast enough to be worth the money for street driven people.

But the 911 is getting a lot of torque as well. And I can bet that the 911 will be underrated if you put it on the dyno. I have observed that all turbo cars shows inflated numbers on dyno.

Now, for pricing, I agree, it's a lot of money for what they offer and one could find similar performance for less money, one example being the current M3.

[EfEightyM3]

Originally Posted by solstice

I dunno, it kind of feel like a disappointment. The 10s gain on the ring is impressive no doubt but the engine specs seems weak. Same displacement as the S55 but less hp and TQ in both the Carrera and Carrera S. Is this worth giving up the 3.8l engine in the current C2S? Doesn't feel very special with a 3l 420hp / 368 lb ft engine in today's FI world. The chassis is undeniable top class as always but I think they could have gone bigger with the engine, not the full 3.8 of the Turbo but something like 3.5l and at least 450hp in the C2S to make the transition to FI go down a bit better. I wonder how these specs will be received in the Porsche world? That said, without driving it, it's just empty words.

Doesn't make sense to me to be disappointed. Porsche is probably the most conservative with its figures. A current carrera S with only 360 whp is as fast or faster than most anything in a straight with up to around 500 hp and on track none of those cars come close. Even a base 991 on track is quite fast despite a small 350 hp.
With the new cars. 379 hp is more like 420 and 420 more like 460-470 hp. You can be damn sure no other car with 420 hp with be able to come close to the track times it puts down or in straights given the current S/GTS trap 118 mph. Hell, most 550 hp cars won't be able to touch it on track.
This car will be indeed impressive as Porsche does turbos likely better than anyone.
The dynamics and handling and the scalpel like precision as well as the responsiveness of the engine will be spectacular.

[kdphan]

Originally Posted by brava09

But the 911 is getting a lot of torque as well. And I can bet that the 911 will be underrated if you put it on the dyno. I have observed that all turbo cars shows inflated numbers on dyno.

Now, for pricing, I agree, it's a lot of money for what they offer and one could find similar performance for less money, one example being the current M3.

My only wish is for BMW to make another Z4M Coupe with the S55 in it

911 competitor

[nicknaz]

Wow if those are the specs on the base model the turbo and gt3 are going to be crazy.

That said, the value is getting to be pretty poor, especially when viper and z06 are getting more well rounded.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by EfEightyM3

Doesn't make sense to me to be disappointed.

Surprise, surprise...I'm still disappointed. To me a $100k equipped sports car today need more power. With the 2015s you get a bigger engine for your money with the S, now you get some more boost. I dunno, the more I think of it the bigger the disappointment. They should have gone bigger and made the Carrera thouroughly spank the M4 segement. Now they will again be compared to these relative budget cars when it should be well out in the distance. Complacent and taking advantage of it's name and fans.

[RMB]

By the time I spec a 911 it is close to $120k and that isn't even the S version. I like Porsche very much, but my M4 to me seems like the better value. After reviewing the stats on the new 911 engines I feel that the M4 engine is a really good engine.

[M4GTS]

Originally Posted by RMB

By the time I spec a 911 it is close to $120k and that isn't even the S version. I like Porsche very much, but my M4 to me seems like the better value. After reviewing the stats on the new 911 engines I feel that the M4 engine is a really good engine.

Indeed! The 911 no longer has anything to set it apart, sure it's fast, but then a GTR is faster still and cheaper. The loss of the mechanical rack, and now the NA have killed it for me, so I hope they will now start to differentiate the GT models more and increase production.