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05-24-2014, 10:55 PM | #89 | ||
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Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if IIRC, there were some 80+k E46M3's built & sold. That number was at least ten thousand more than the number of E9xM3's built & sold. Fast forward: Looking forward to the F8xM3/M4 retaining the crown against more pricey models like the GT-R and the Porsche 911TT. It's naturally aspirated predecessor did quite well when C&D pitted three against each other. Quote:
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05-25-2014, 12:34 AM | #90 | ||
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In fact, most found them to be very very interesting. Last edited by M4TW; 05-25-2014 at 12:44 AM.. |
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05-25-2014, 07:49 AM | #91 | |||
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.......all of which would be very, very good.
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05-25-2014, 08:12 AM | #92 | |
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Get with the times already although I know turbos aren't anything new (just outlawed in the 80s for producing too much power). |
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05-25-2014, 09:36 AM | #93 | |
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I bought a 2012 LMB E92 M3 fully loaded new, kept it for a year or so, sold it last September, and my SS M4 is currently crossing the Atlantic to be delivered to me by the same dealership. My old M3 was very special and I love the induction noise from the engine (definitely beats the Porsche in this aspect, but not torque or exhaust note). However, when I am not on a track (99% of my driving time), to have to rev or downshift to get to 5 k rpm and above to feel any appreciable speed was not "special" for me. It is not enjoyable for me to have to wind my engine out in traffic in order to get in front of a Honda accord v6. This might not be the best analogy, but if someone has to strain and blow a nut trying to put up 300 lbs vs. the person who lifts it with minimal effort (no grunting, or an explosion of blood from the pelvic area) I think that is even more impressive. It might not have the theatrics of a frenzied attempt, but it is not boring either. This is just my opinion and I am happy with the vehicles I have purchased in the past and that I currently own. |
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05-25-2014, 10:44 AM | #94 | |||
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This comparo was a joke. The m3 only won bc of back seats and a trunk. As far as performance and handling go, it got owned. The 911 turbo is still the single best daily drivable super car…don't see the King (911 turbo) losing. Then again, I don't see them doing a comparo like this, its just unfair to the m3/4. Look the m3/4 aspires to be like the 911…thats why BMW always benchmarks it against the 911 (or should I say the lowest level 911). Last edited by Wolfinwolfsclothing; 05-25-2014 at 11:25 AM.. |
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05-25-2014, 11:37 AM | #95 | |
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Go to 18:30 of this interview where Dinan begins a discussion of power & torque in racing. Also a few minutes later, he gives an example of detuning BMW engines' mid-range torque but extending the torque band farther out in order to make more power up top to better compete with the higher torque cars such as Chevy and Ford.
http://dinancars.com/steve-dinan-int...-tire-podcast/ Everyone has preferences that need to be respected but some of us do love the unique experience of the E9x M3s not only because it has "soul" but because in high -rev applications, you can control the power so well and the engine keeps making more power right up to redline. Let's not forget that the M division did not want to make a turbocharged engine, but the mother ship forced this upon them (and actually the head guy who said this, did end up retiring) Think the question should be did M now give us the best engine they could with the F80? For TT application I think yes, but looking at the big picture they could have stayed NA with DI (a-la porsche) and cylinder de-activation, could have done FI with supercharger (which would keep very similar characteristics to NA), or could have done an NA and electric combination. I personally think all these options would have made an already great car untouchable. For the S65/85 and S54, M did give us pretty much the best NA engine they could at the time. And this is what we all love, a close to maxed out engine with some of the most sophisticated technologies available (was actually considered by many to be the most sophisticated road car engine in the world given the ECU processing power at the time). This is why I personally believe the BMW NA engines are so special and you can feel it! In terms of daily driving preference, I guess it depends where you live and what your commute is. I live within 20 minutes of some of the best driving roads imaginable and within 1.5 hours of a legendary track, and I don't have any traffic on my commutes, so I'm in hog-heaven with an NA motor that makes it so gratifying to rev and rev and rev! So much is personal preference, but to really know what you would prefer, try to experience all the potential applications of road cars by trying out different ones (know you have, but this is more directed at others in this thread). Remember going to the M school and a couple of father-son teams went there with the sons dead set on getting 1Ms. After driving them back to back with the M3s, one of them changed his mind and the other was really on the fence. I asked them why and it was because they loved the high-revving nature of the S65 and the super-smooth application of throttle during difficult maneuvers. Quote:
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05-25-2014, 12:12 PM | #96 | |||
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I don't know many auto enthusiasts that would characterize a 911TT as a "supercar"; probably because it isn't. Now the CGT certainly is acknowledged as such. http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mw-m3-page-4-1 P.S. I would expect the F8xM3/M4 to acquit itself quite well against similar pricier models, but hopefully the C&D staff will ignore negative comments.
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05-25-2014, 12:49 PM | #97 | |
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I don't live in hog heaven, but enjoy what I can. I'm coming to the party from a tuned 335 and so there will be less of an adjustment for me. I'm just super excited about the steps that they have taken with the S55 to improve throttle response, cooling, and stretching the fun into higher revs along with everything else. I'm even more excited about the new chassis and the general upgrade in moving not only to a new model with all of its advances and improvements and especially about getting the /// M I've always wanted. In spite of all the bad mouthing going on here (of which I am just as guilty) I think there are more things in common than different between the previous model and this one. I want to experience the ///Magic too and hope to be a proud owner just like you. I took the e92 M3 for a spin and never got to truly exploit/experience the mad rush to redline on public roads. Instead I just though the car felt relatively flat compared to what I was used to. It handled like an absolute dream though and nothing i did with my 335 could match. That's part of the reason why I am as excited as I am about getting my M4. The mad rush must be something special though or there wouldn't be so many reviewers and owners mentioning it. I guess I disagree with you on the options available to BMW on the new engine. They've already gone the direction of TT with the M5/6 and so the development and technology was already there. To remain competitive they likely would have needed to go a larger displacement V8 as there probably wasn't enough to be squeezed out of the existing S65. I had joked previously about BMW entering into a block sharing arrangement with Ford, Jag, and Toyota on a 5.0 l displacement V8. You can correct me, but I don't think that BMW have ever gone the supercharging route before. There would be some concerns about adding weight to the front as well as poor gas mileage I would expect. A NA and electric hybrid sounds great, but I don't think they are there yet and I think we are more likely to see a turbo/electric hybrid since the electric motor would improve throttle response and torque throughout the powerband. Some of the gas saving technologies might have worked, but I doubt they would be able to achieve what they have with the new platform which is really quite remarkable. I see pressure about emissions and economy increasing and car companies will have to adapt to survive. It's not just government regulation either that's spoiling the party, it's a new zeitgeist that is affecting car buyers as well. We will see how they wallet vote when the new fantastically capable M3/4 is cross-shopped against competitors wheeling out big V8's to appease our collective thirst for more power and performance. Meanwhile you should be happy that BMW is adapting to the times in order to continue to offer ///M's that are competitive, capable and relevant enough to still be considered the benchmark. It can only serve to improve the resale value of your car. Drive safe and happy trails.
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05-25-2014, 12:49 PM | #98 |
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Sorry guys if ANY race team had their choice its a NA car revving to oblivion for making power and ability to modulate and put down the power. This article discusses the very issue.
F1 ONLY went FI due to push for fuel efficiency. Same with road cars. If there were no limits I can assure you teams would use a NA v10 or 8. Provided same HP. Torque is meaningless at engine. Watch an f1 race this year. The low-mid range is making the cars be sloppier than I've ever seen in recent past. Putting the immense lmid range stab vs the linear progressive power through a race track. BTW the only losses the M3 had due to Lack of torque would have zero to do with its torque # but person couldn't keep the right gear and in its power band. Anyone coming from a turbo or big v8 had this issue. Last, even f1 drivers have complained all her about lack of sound and modulation of power. Anyway, I may or may not add one to the stable myself and yo each his own but the fact I am so much more interested in a 991 vs new M3 vs last generation I chose to go e92m3 for the day to day fun it provided with that engine . Maybe its down to how much you value sound. Analogous to how taste is really dependant on smell sense, enjoyment of engine character forsome is eextremely dependant on sound. And everyone has a different sense if smell! |
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05-25-2014, 04:06 PM | #99 | |
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So thanks for posting for the 27th time that sound is more important than performance. I think we understand now. And it's been my observation that if 10% of the self appointed cognoscenti here actually did buy a P-Car, Porsche's sales would double. Just sayin'. |
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05-25-2014, 04:36 PM | #100 | |
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05-25-2014, 05:07 PM | #101 |
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05-25-2014, 05:21 PM | #102 | |
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We already know the M3 isn't in the same league on the Ring (its off the pace by around 10-15 seconds), and from the specs we've seen (granted from different sources)..0-100 mph 991S 8.4 sec and m3/4 0-100 mph 8.8 sec. If you're going just by manuf specs, lol. The 991S has recorded 0-60 mph in 3.5 and 1/4 in 11.8@118.4. I doubt we'll see those numbers from the m3/4 unless BMW puts out a press car like the did the m5 with very understated numbers. And looks are subjective…and I don't agree at all. Let's also not forget that even without the limited the m3 only has a top speed of around 177 mph whereas the 991S is approaching 190 mph. Big difference there as well. |
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05-25-2014, 07:04 PM | #104 | |
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05-25-2014, 09:04 PM | #105 |
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Ha ha, I know exactly what you mean! If I ever buy a Porsche it will probably be used, because all these options depreciate so much on the used car market. It goes beyond the money...I just feel "used" after seeing how much the reasonable options add to the price.
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05-25-2014, 09:35 PM | #106 | |
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Scary. This is the prevailing sentiment in every evaluation I've read or seen a video of. The M3/4 is fast and handles well, but lacks emotion/engagement. |
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05-25-2014, 09:54 PM | #107 | ||
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Also check out the Chris Harris review notes thread (including his calling out a troll in the comments section who suggested this car or engine were boring. Harris tore him a new one)
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05-26-2014, 02:30 AM | #108 | |
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And if you really care that much about sound there are much better options out there for a lot less money than E9X M3. |
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05-26-2014, 09:18 AM | #109 |
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If my f80 m3 beat a 911 in a racing environment in terms of feel and responsiveness, I would be a tad concerned about it being my daily driver. I'm not one of those folks who proudly declares, "I drive my gt3 20k miles a year, my left quad is 6x the size of my right, and I find it perfectly comfortable"
I want my m3 to strike the balance: close enough to the 911S to be worth the comparison, but with the comforts and tuning that says I wouldn't mind taking my 85 year old grandmother out for a sunday stroll either. That is it's purpose and that means it will lose comparison tests to vehicles that have a greater degree of focus (and possibly a significantly higher price tag). Anyone who thinks that somehow reflects poorly on the f80 is conflating design purposes with magazine testing. Joe P.s. I'm not an e90 m3 owner, and I know it's more of a religion than an ownership experience, but I find the e90 to be a nice car - but not exactly the true race bred m3 that earlier models were. If you want feel above all, experience above all, I would never point you to an e90 m3. Sure, the motor is a gem. But so is the motor in a c6 'vette. There are lots of reasons to like the e90 m3 and I'm not putting that down. But to see it as some paragon of feel and experience may be missing perspective. |
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05-26-2014, 10:54 AM | #110 |
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Sounding off
I get that sound is an important part of the myriad of popping sensations that go along with driving a performance car. I’d be a liar If I was to say that I shall ever tire of the baritone sonorous note trumpeted by the combo of induction and a fire breathing V8. It’s just that, well, that sound was perfected back in 1968 with a Pontiac GTO.
Naw, the new ///M makes a new sound. From the future. It can do the bass guitar riffs. But it can also snap, crackle and pop, make a Stuka dive bomber scream, and fire up a chain saw to get the job done. If it’s all mixed together like an Allan Parsons Project gone mental, then so be it. This is music orchestrated for the nimble striker to go along with its bobbing and weaving, chucking and jiving, and flat out pin-your-ears back effin sprinting. It makes a mofo sound for sure. If that all sounds like cacophony to you, then there is always the stereo to drown it out. Punch my enthusiast membership card if you will, but I really only pay attention to the sound of my car when I am racing. At all other times I am rocking out tunes loud enough to mute any exhaust note within, and frequently without, the cabin. I’d say that I optioned my M4 with the pussy magnet and the rock and roll switch - but these features come standard.
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