340i with mods - how close to M3 performance?

[AustinTrkJunkie]

Spend as much money as you want modding a F3X, it will never have the same visceral feel/performance of an F8X.

^^^^^^^^^^

This is all you need to know, unfortunately it cost me an extra $6K with the trade-in to realize this simple fact...

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by BMWILUVU

Who tracks the 340 stock? I'm sure many guys do but many like me also mod it for the track and its perfectly able.

Originally Posted by neilum

On a circuit for more than a few laps no you can't track it. You will either overheat the brakes or, the oil or your intake air temperatures will be through the roof.

No, not many people track their 340i stock, because it's not meant to handle it in stock form.

Please tell me you are trolling us because no one worth their salt would even remotely think a stock 340 can seriously handle track use.

I track my 2014 335i M Sport RWD in stock powertrain form.

The only mods I have are:
- BMW M Performance Suspension Kit
- BMW M Performance LSD
- Square Apex ARC-18 18x8.5 ET38
- Square Michelin Pilot Super Sport 255/40/18
- F80 M3 brake pads for my M Sport Brakes
- Castrol SRF brake fluid


I would never track this car with powertrain mods because you're going to be going way outside the engineering envelope at the track.

[dr.roro]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

I track my 2014 335i M Sport RWD in stock powertrain form.

The only mods I have are:
- BMW M Performance Suspension Kit
- BMW M Performance LSD
- Square Apex ARC-18 18x8.5 ET38
- Square Michelin Pilot Super Sport 255/40/18
- F80 M3 brake pads for my M Sport Brakes
- Castrol SRF brake fluid


I would never track this car with powertrain mods because you're going to be going way outside the engineering envelope at the track.

How do the F80 M3 brake pads compare to the F30 M Sport brake pads, particularly in terms of performance, noise, and brake dust? How long did the OEM F30 M Sport brake pads last you?

Also, do you know if the F82 M4 brake pads will also directly fit the F32 M Sport Brakes?

Where did you get your suspension and LSD installed in MD, and how much did they charge for labor?

[Dseverson]

I like the 340i, it's good to see BMW bumping up the power. I've had two BMW's that I've modded prior to my F80 M3. My 335i had a Cobb stage 2 tune..nothing but problems and my 435i Dinan Stage 2 tune..nothing but problems...Just spend the money up front and buy the car that suits your performance needs. I could have saved thousands if I had done this. I bought mine used with low KM's and have never regretted my purchase.

[AlterZgo]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Just to squeeze a 340 owner input into the thread. I recently got a great deal on low mileage 2016 340i which enabled me to spend another ~$12k (tune, suspension, exhaust, brakes, LSD) or so on upgrades and still be $20k less than a same year / mileage M3. What I love about the car is its still a comfortable commuter but also has great power and handling when you want to hit the pedal / turns.

This is no knock on the M3 as i love the car and its an absolute beast but I think a modded 340i makes a great compromise on a car you can commute and push the envelope when needed.

That math doesn’t seem right. You’re saying your car is $32k less than a similar year/mileage M3. A quick search on carmax in many area shows 2016 M3s with 20k or less miles going for $51k to $54k. Did you get your 340i for $19k to $22k? If so, great deal.

Regardless, I think the M3 has significant value compared to a modded 340i with the added bonus that all the upgrades are factory warrantied on the M3.

[nicknaz]

^ unfortunately the f80 has depreciated more than that. My '15 f80 sold for $52k with 14k miles last January. It was a very low options car and no backup camera was mildly annoying for a daily but it isn't clear to me that a 340 with $8.5k in mods is at a similar performance level as a stock f80 with re71r type tires

[ixse]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Here was my math which was just a directional comment versus holding up to a KPMG audit i paid roughly $35k for a well equipped 2016 auto 340i with 1500 miles certified. If i just look at performance mods versus cosmetic, it was another $8.5k so lets round to $10k, then you have a high peformanxe 340i which imho is a better commuter for around $45k. I was assumming an auto 2016 m3 with less than 2000 miles would be at least $65k. I wasnt trying to knock the m3, just saying the 340 with the new b58 engine is a great value if tweaked.

This type of argument has been around for ages.. starting with civic n integra crowd from 90s.. ive done my fare share of moding vehicles, and come to a conclusion that modding drivetrain components opens up whole lot a can of worms esp when things go bad or broken. Even trying resale is whole another headache.

[IDBGOD]

There is no substitute. Even with mods it will never be an //M.

That's not to say the 335./40 with mods can't be a great performance daily commuter, and value wise the price point is something to consider vs a used //M.

But this thread isn't talking about just a plain 335/40 with a basic tune, with that extent in mods you would be pushing used M3 price (if you are talking FBO, with suspension work as well) which is the only way you are getting close to the performance of the M3.

At that point might as well consider the M3 as resale wise and $$ wise you will never get back what you sink into the 340i.

Bottom line either pick up a nice used 340 and do some budget mods and use it as a daily commuter, or go the used M route and spend more for something more. Be warned though once you go M there's no going back to a non M BMW (with or without mods).

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Dinan stage 1 tune: $1400
Dinan exhaust and mid pipe: $1800
Bilstein B16 PSS10 suspension:$2000
M-Performance LSD: $1500 (on black friday spexial)
M-Performance Brakes: $2100

With above, the b58 engine and car handling is very strong. I would also guess, the 340i would take a stock M3 in the quarter mile. I think the m3 is obviously a better track car and the 340 a more pleasant high performance commuter. Just my 2 cents and opinion and not being any bit negative on an M3!!! I love the car!!!

On your depreciation example, i was trying to compare more apples to apples but i know thats hard to do.

The only mod I see there that will significantly improve the 1/4 is the Dinan Stage 1. That exhaust will get you 0.1 seconds... maybe. A stock F80 can do low 12s (and high 11s on 103 octane). Here's a 340i X-Drive Dinan Stage 1 doing a 12.7.

EDIT: forgot the link:

And that's on AWD. So no, you probably can't beat a stock F80 on comparable rubber, race conditions and driver skill notwithstanding.

As far as the 340i being more pleasant, yes, I owned a 340i ZTR and it was a great commuter.

But with a $1400 tune on a 340i, you could have gotten a $400 burger piggyback and now the F80 is even more untouchable by a modded 340i. The potential is just higher in the M car, both in a straight line and on a track. Its lighter, faster, and has an extra turbo to play with. Its got a better footprint, it's less top heavy... It's just built to perform better.

Again, 340i, great car. You can have a lot of fun with it at that price point. But the M3/4 is not that much more expensive. If your goal is M type performance, then start with an M. If you want a kick-ass 340i, you can have that too.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Dinan stage 1 tune: $1400
Dinan exhaust and mid pipe: $1800
Bilstein B16 PSS10 suspension:$2000
M-Performance LSD: $1500 (on black friday spexial)
M-Performance Brakes: $2100

With above, the b58 engine and car handling is very strong. I would also guess, the 340i would take a stock M3 in the quarter mile. I think the m3 is obviously a better track car and the 340 a more pleasant high performance commuter. Just my 2 cents and opinion and not being any bit negative on an M3!!! I love the car!!!

On your depreciation example, i was trying to compare more apples to apples but i know thats hard to do.

What would those mods give in terms of 1/4 mile trap? F80 is 116-119mph. Impressive if those mild mods on b58 are netting those traps

Too bad we don't see any comparisons with 340 with those mods + r comp tire vs f80 stock + r comp tire. Would love to see the 1/4 mile and lap times comparison of those, plus whether 340 cooling systems can handle 20-30 min hot lapping with those mods

[jmg]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

plus whether 340 cooling systems can handle 20-30 min hot lapping with those mods

I think people tend to forget about this. Although the M Sport with the track package has the fog light delete for more cooling and extra radiators.

The brakes on my F80 also seem to hold up much better than my 340i brakes did.

[IDBGOD]

Originally Posted by jmg

The only mod I see there that will significantly improve the 1/4 is the Dinan Stage 1. That exhaust will get you 0.1 seconds... maybe. A stock F80 can do low 12s (and high 11s on 103 octane). Here's a 340i X-Drive Dinan Stage 1 doing a 12.7. And that's on AWD. So no, you probably can't beat a stock F80 on comparable rubber, race conditions and driver skill notwithstanding.

As far as the 340i being more pleasant, yes, I owned a 340i ZTR and it was a great commuter.

But with a $1400 tune on a 340i, you could have gotten a $400 burger piggyback and now the F80 is even more untouchable by a modded 340i. The potential is just higher in the M car, both in a straight line and on a track. Its lighter, faster, and has an extra turbo to play with. Its got a better footprint, it's less top heavy... It's just built to perform better.

Again, 340i, great car. You can have a lot of fun with it at that price point. But the M3/4 is not that much more expensive. If your goal is M type performance, then start with an M. If you want a kick-ass 340i, you can have that too.

100% spot on. +1

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ejn1

I wasn't trying to represent that all the mods were speed related, I was asked what can you get for $8500 so I listed. The LSD may help a little in the quarter

A lot of the bias is from many on these boards having a 335/340 and moving to m3 (myself included, with n55 powered 335 and n54 powered z4)

Not sure if the days of $9k e36 m3 are still around but THAT would be my choice for $8.5k vs mods for a 340

Stock non Ms on cheap lease for commuting and old school heavily modded M3 for track fun

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Might be good to have an open mind to the new B58 It's not a 335i by any means as I use to own one. I will say that the 335i handled better than my 340i with just a stock sport suspension but my 340 completely transformed with the new Bilstein coilovers. The stock sport line 340 suspension was awful imo.

I had a 340i, I was impressed with the B58. It's going to do nicely as an S58 in the G80 M cars.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by jmg

I had a 340i, I was impressed with the B58. It's going to do nicely as an S58 in the G80 M cars.

+1. The S58 is gonna be a screamer. Let's pray for a manual and DCT option. I'm kinda nervous that BMW is gonna fuck it up with an auto box.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ejn1

I wasn't trying to represent that all the mods were speed related, I was asked what can you get for $8500 so I listed. The LSD may help a little in the quarter keeping the rear tires down. I've heard of stock 340's doing upper 12's on a good run so no way with another 100hp it's doing a 12.7 with an experienced driver. That guys reaction time must have been impaired

Attached is another youtube link of a tuned 340i on half mile i think drag versus an M3 (maybe a prior body style but not sure).

That's an E92 M3. There is a HUGE difference in acceleration performance between an E9X M3 and an F8X M3/4.

I am sorry to say, but a modded 340i, as good as it is, does not compare to an M3 performance wise as a total package.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ejn1

My only comment on performance differences was that a modded 340i may be quicker than a stock M3 in a 0-60 and quarter. If its not quicker, then it must be even or negligible. On other aspects around track performance, i agree.

I think my original point was lost in the subsequent posts. The 340 can be had used for a great value and with a few mods, it can be made into a great performance car for a good chunk of cash less than you buy a used M3 of similar specs. If you want to buy a track car or a bad ass beast of car to tool around on weekends, buy the M3, if you want to buy something that can be made to perform similar to the M3 in many key attributes that you would use outside of a track setting, eg, acceleration, torque, handling and braking, then a few mods can get you there and its also a much better commuter. On the M3, then the next question to be bantered is if you want the best track car, why not buy the M2 for $15k less . There must be a reason the new B58 engine is going to be the basis for the next M3 engine?

Given every post was of the vein, no question buy the m3, dont mod, etc.... I was just offering a view from someone that recently did the latter route. Other's offered great points around resale that you have to consider and also, i for one like the looks and finish of the M3 version better.

An M2 and an M3 are also tooled for different purposes. The M2 actually doesn't weigh that much less than an M3. It's shorter wheelbase gives it a different driving experience and advantage on certain tracks, but not all.

IMHO BMW didn't go all the way with the M2 so that they wouldn't bastardize sales. The M2 needs to shed about 200lbs or more. Nonetheless, I really really love the M2.

[IDBGOD]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Just having a look at used 2016 M3's Auto with low miles, they appear to be in the $55-62k range with another 8-9K mileage versus mine... My point was that they are not the same price point but maybe $20k is a bit high from my earlier post and maybe its more like $10-15k. I was just offering an opinion on a modded 340i from someone that recently did it... not trying to pour water on an obviously biased thread Plus I love the M3 but as a performance car and a commuter, it is not as good of an option IMHO as a slightly modded 340, the B58 engine is really outstanding and fun to drive at the full power band, not just over 3500 rpms or if you want a spinal fusion.... I concede it is better for the track, no question and it has some cooler body work and interior trim.

The price point all depends. Base M3/4 without all the bells and whistles can be found for less. In fact, a loaded 340 is about entry level of the M3 new so again it all depends and you have to compare equipment, miles, price, etc and also the seller and what you buy the car for.

$10-15k is a more reasonable average assumption sure, but again you are going to sink every bit of $8k if you want to even remotely compare to the feel of the //M. We aren't just talking just a stage 1 tune, you are talking full bolt on, suspension work, tires, etc and you will never see that $8k+ investment back when you resell it. Down the line, the M will hold better resale. In the meanwhile all of that gets you to about stock M levels, while the M owner can spend as little as $400 (or $200 used) for a simple plug and play stage one tune that makes the gap even further adding another 50-60whp to an already 400+ S55 platform to start with.

I disagree about the commuter argument. I daily my M3 and have stacked on the miles since ownership. It can be as comfortable as I want depending on my drive mode settings, or I can switch it into full track mode at the press of a button. The M isn't just a track/performance car that makes it preferable, it's the ability to have the reliability and drive of a daily commuter while also being able to be an adept and compotent track car if you want.

Reliability also tends to go out the window when you start modding heavily, so I disagree. A modded 335/40 really isn't a better commuter, nor track car. The only thing it has going for it is price savings over the M (which unless you are buying a last generation N54 335i and sinking $10-20K in mods that price gap has already shrunken tremendously).

If you haven't ever driven an M3/4 please do yourself a favor and do so. I've owned both and I prefer the M both as a daily commuter and obviously no contest on the track. It isn't so much being biased (I and many here have owned and driven both)...but when you finally own an M you will understand why we feel the way we do and there really is no ever going back.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ejn1

My only comment on performance differences was that a modded 340i may be quicker than a stock M3 in a 0-60 and quarter. If its not quicker, then it must be even or negligible. On other aspects around track performance, i agree.

I think my original point was lost in the subsequent posts. The 340 can be had used for a great value and with a few mods, it can be made into a great performance car for a good chunk of cash less than you buy a used M3 of similar specs. If you want to buy a track car or a bad ass beast of car to tool around on weekends, buy the M3, if you want to buy something that can be made to perform similar to the M3 in many key attributes that you would use outside of a track setting, eg, acceleration, torque, handling and braking, then a few mods can get you there and its also a much better commuter. On the M3, then the next question to be bantered is if you want the best track car, why not buy the M2 for $15k less . There must be a reason the new B58 engine is going to be the basis for the next M3 engine?

Given every post was of the vein, no question buy the m3, dont mod, etc.... I was just offering a view from someone that recently did the latter route. Other's offered great points around resale that you have to consider and also, i for one like the looks and finish of the M3 version better so that's another positive for the M.

The M3 is NOT a track car. There are far better track weapons than an M3/4. The whole point of the M3/4 is the DUAL CAPABILITY, as practical/luxurious daily driver and weekend track toy. Like I like to say fondly of all my ///Ms they are not the best at anything, but they are second best at everything.

I've been lucky enough to test drive an M2 on the street (at my dealer) and at the track (from a track buddy). I can attest that the M2 is less practical as a daily driver due to the smaller size and not as much fun on a track due to the lesser power. It is the entry level ///M and nifty little beast for the price, which is perfectly fine. But not the car for me.

There is a good chance that a 340i xDrive will be faster 0-60mph than an M3, simply because of the better launch traction. But the M3 has never been about 0-60mph nor drag racing, so it is a moot point. A 340i is a great daily driver. IMO, there is no "need" for M3 levels of performance on the daily drive. It is simply not possible to get close to the M3s performance capabilities on the street within a reasonable legal margin. Some folks get the M3 for the overall feel of the car, for the prestige, for knowing the capability is there or for whatever other reason; and there is nothing wrong with that. A 340i, even in stock form, is probably the better daily driver. But thinking a moderately modded 340i will match an M3 in terms of total performance, is just being in denial and/or looking for self justification.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ejn1

You were making some real good comments until your last sentence. No one said total performance but that's what you keep wanting to here I guess.

Isn't that the point of this entire thread?

Originally Posted by ejn1

How do/can you say what someone needs or doesnt need on a daily commute?

Anyone who uses the full performance capability of an M3 on a daily commute is utterly irresponsible and belongs in jail. That's how.

Originally Posted by ejn1

I for one, love the feel of the 340 for my 35 miles each way commute. Its night and day more fun to drive to work vs the stock. If someone else likes the feel of an M3 then great. Let me say it for you to avoid all doubt, The m3 has better overall performance but it comes at a price differential plus I (me) dont feel it makes for a better commute... IMHO, if you want the best combination of performance, commuting and value, then a good option to be aware of is a 340 with some mods. I could easily afford the M3, but for me i wouldnt spend $75k on a new one to put 15k miles a year. I know a couple of folks who sold their M3's due to the fact that they weren't as comfortable for daily driving. There was a recent review of by the Smoking Tire where he reviewed the 340i with the track package and said it was a better daily driver than the M3... So others have shared that opinion which is just that, an opinion, not denial.

We're saying the same thing:

The 340i is the better daily driver. The M3 sacrifices some DD comfort for track performance. For someone that doe not track, the 340i can easily be the better choice.

But please, don't reference Matt Farah, he's got zero credibility to me

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ejn1

I think the point that we are not saying the same thing is that a 340 with another $8-10k of mods can close the performance gap to the point where it may be a better value to many... and your assertion that to even state that is a form of denial Also, I would have the opinion that a large % of sales of M3's are from folks probably not like yourself where straight line performance out of the gate is what they talk about most. I rarely hear someone state what lap time they ran when they boost about the performance of their car. I would say 0-60, quarter time, torque off the line, are not moot points for the majority of M3 buyers. Of course handling is also important which with a few modest mods, a 340 can make great strides with...

This whole thread was "how close can a 340 get" and imho, it can close the gap substantially in several areas and in others maybe surpass or equal. Thats why i dove into shark invested waters to offer my opinion

We are saying the same thing:

Folks that believe a 340i with moderate mods gets close enough to an M3's performance do not need an M3

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ejn1

And dont forget your other fantastic point, folks that need the prestige should opt for the M3

It certainly is A reason for some folks getting an M3.

But is most certainly is not THE reason to get an M3. Most people (i.e. non-enthusiasts) do not not even know what an M3 is .