340i with mods - how close to M3 performance?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ejn1

You were making some real good comments until your last sentence. No one said total performance but that's what you keep wanting to here I guess. How do/can you say what someone needs or doesnt need on a daily commute? I for one, love the feel of the 340 for my 35 miles each way commute. Its night and day more fun to drive to work vs the stock. If someone else likes the feel of an M3 then great. Let me say it for you to avoid all doubt, The m3 has better overall performance but it comes at a price differential plus I (me) dont feel it makes for a better commute... IMHO, if you want the best combination of performance, commuting and value, then a good option to be aware of is a 340 with some mods. I could easily afford the M3, but for me i wouldnt spend $75k on a new one to put 15k miles a year. I know a couple of folks who sold their M3's due to the fact that they weren't as comfortable for daily driving. There was a recent review of by the Smoking Tire where he reviewed the 340i with the track package and said it was a better daily driver than the M3... So others have shared that opinion which is just that, an opinion, not denial.

Again, I had a 340i with the Track Package... besides the fact that it was fully loaded and my M3 is not, and it has better fuel economy, it is not significantly a better daily driver. I actually find the M seats much much more comfortable than the Sport seats. In efficient mode, the M3 is just as manageable as the 340i, but ironically I never have it in efficient mode even in traffic, go figure.

Value, of course, is subjective. I find more value in a car that I can both commute in AND take on a track or backroads with relatively little compromise and still be under warranty.

[IDBGOD]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

It certainly is A reason for some folks getting an M3.

But is most certainly is not THE reason to get an M3. Most people (i.e. non-enthusiasts) do not not even know what an M3 is .

....Or even know any model difference really. All they know is a BMW is a BMW and the higher the model number the more expensive

If it's "prestige" you are going for...might as well bypass the M entirely. A standard 6 series GC or convertible would suffice or just opt for the 8 series when it's out. A used 6 series would be much more prestigious to the average person than an M.

The M3/4 to non enthusiasts is just another 3 or 4 on the road to them, they could care less in most cases.

[IDBGOD]

Originally Posted by jmg

Again, I had a 340i with the Track Package... besides the fact that it was fully loaded and my M3 is not, and it has better fuel economy, it is not significantly a better daily driver. I actually find the M seats much much more comfortable than the Sport seats. In efficient mode, the M3 is just as manageable as the 340i, but ironically I never have it in efficient mode even in traffic, go figure.

Value, of course, is subjective. I find more value in a car that I can both commute in AND take on a track or backroads with relatively little compromise and still be under warranty.

Exactly. He must have missed my above post.

As a daily, the M3 can be just as comfortable as a 340i but it also has the option to switch to a much harsher, track ready automobile. It's the full package with the option to not only be a reliable great daily commuter, but also can be a fun weekend car to track. And you have so many different ways to customize your settings (efficient, comfort, adaptive suspension settings, steering, etc).

You also loose the reliability and warranty factor when you modify the 340i so I don't see how you can use the argument it's a better commuter. You are more prone to drivetrain malfunctions, limp modes, cooling issues, etc.

But I get the general consensus of what he's stating. Pick up a budget 335/40 and just do a few budget mods and save on the price savings if you don't see the value and extra price of the M.

...But to be comparable and sink $8-10k in mods for $$ you will never see back I can't see the reasoning vs picking up a used M for a little more that's not only going to resell and hold value better but also be plenty reliable right out of the gate stock. The gap isn't that wide 340i's are 2017+ vehicles that MSRP close to $60k new. Unless you are stealing a 1 year old 340 for $30k, it's not that large of a window when you are talking 10k in mods when you are picking up a used 340 for 40K+ 8-10K in mods. A few more grand, and you're there and the M will infinitely be worth more while also being more reliable as time goes by.

I've driven both as commuters and I'd still choose the M. It's not like it rides like a truck in comparison lol.

Bottom line: He needs to go drive one and stop posting. Then he can decide if the value/price is worth it to him. For some, it's not, and that's perfectly fine. However, if you are going to mod a 340i in attempt to be comparable to an M, then you are much better off starting with the M to begin with. You get what you pay for (better parts, reliability, full package, customization, etc).

Or just enjoy your 340i stock or just do a budget stage 1 tune and be happy and enjoy your savings.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Just one point on warranty. At least with the Dinan package, the warranty concerns are far less given their backstop of the BMW factory warranty and the fact that BMW and Dinan have a relationship through authorized dealers. Also, my M-performance brakes and M-Performance LSD were installed at a dealer and maintain full factory warranty. The only mod i made that doesn't have warranty is the Bilstein coilovers which I was happy to take that minimal risk.

You offer good balanced points JMG which the OP of this thread should consider. I would not expect anyone on this F80 thread to come out and say "great points ejn1, I dont know what i was thinking when i bought my M3, maybe I should trade it in for a 340i"... But I wish you could drive blind folded and drive mine with the mods made which I dont believe anyone on this thread has (im guessing)... it was a major improvement over stock and also changed the feel of the steering for the better. Also, the additional ~100hp and torque feel amazing throughout the power band on the B58. Plus for kickers, the Dinan full exhaust, IMHO, sounds way better than a stock M3. So value is the majority of the debate for me at least because if priced relatively equal, I would still opt for the M3 for the reasons that many have mentioned in this thread, but are they worth another $15k, not for me at least especially since the 340i has some other positives as well.

I think we've beat this horse dead enough One things for sure, the OP at least got multiple inputs on this topic!!!

Yeah, the stock M3 does not sound nearly as good as a modded 340i. I went with the MPE and the ZCP sounds much better as well. One thing I will add is that when I first purchased my F80, it was as a daily driver so I opted for the DCT, which IMHO is absolutely brilliant. The ZF 8 speed is no comparison. Of course this point is moot if you are comparing manuals, and rumor has it the DCT will not be in the G80. Such a shame IMHO unless the ZF is significantly improved.

I have no doubt that your 340i is a blast to drive. In my time with my 340i I could see a lot of tuning potential.

[IDBGOD]

Originally Posted by ejn1

IDBGOD: I saw your post and not sure what kind of response you would want. I should go and drive your car but you shouldn't drive mine, lol....

Not just mine, go and drive ANY F80 M3...trust me

DCT behaves very differently than a standard 8 speed auto. The steering, brakes, suspension, drivetrain, etc. it's all different....it's just something any modified 3 series can't replicate unless you were to completely rebuild the car which wouldn't make much sense.

But in all fairness, Dinan has a notorious reputation for being overpriced and having pretty conservative/low gains for the $$. For the amount that you spend on Dinan upgrades you have already closed that gap, I assure you. You are paying a premium essentially for a matched warranty, one that already comes with all those gains and more stock on the S55 platform.

Of course a $4k Dinan exhaust sounds better than a stock non ZCP F8x car. The stock exhaust is nothing to scream home about on a non comp car.

I'm sure you love your car and it's a labor of love as we say when we mod cars. You never expect to really get much back. All I'm getting at is if it's value and savings you are going for then stick with a few budget mods that are easy to remove and resell and be happy. When you start putting $8-10k in mods to be "comparable" to an M3 you are better to start with the better platform (both value wise and in general).

Then you start modding the M3 and the gap gets even more insane. You also get more in terms of gains from just a basic tune.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ejn1

i do believe you would get something from resale with improved suspension and LSD and Brakes...

Not if it's kept on the car. I'd bet it's actually less likely to sell with mods since on one really wants a car that's been tracked unless they plan to track it themselves, in which case an virgin used 340i is the better buy. This is why many go back to stock and just sell the parts.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Something I thought of also and maybe your right but I would think the main issue there is the engine tune which is a super easy module to remove... If someone saw new coilovers and brakes, would that really imply a tracked car? Not sure on that...

It would illicit an inquiry in the least. Personally, I would pay more for the car that was well cared for by someone who doesn't track.

[IDBGOD]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Trust me, my comments are not emotionally attached On the numbers, we should avoid Enron accounting The dinan exhaust was around $2k installed, not $4k. Also, the Dinan Stage 1 would come out of the car in like 30 minutes and re-sold so likely not a total loss plus i do believe you would get something from resale with improved suspension and LSD and Brakes... To assume zero is not reality imo. So the differential on an similarly equipped car is around $10-$15k at least... Sorry, i can't place a value on the Prestige factor!

On warranty, of course im paying a premium for the warranty! but you cant play both sides of the fence and say there is not warranty, then say i paid for a warranty etc... The mods i quoted are the prices and the differential still exists.

I never stated there was zero return on mods, but in general you can expect at best a 50% return on the parts you resell (if the actual parts are resold, not on the car itself). It also entirely depends on your buyer. Quite frankly I always see people saying they have this, "upgrade" and yada yada and at the end of the day its fractions of the penny on the dollar for what you get back. In most cases, no, you aren't going to get a significant amount back if you resold your modified 3 even with all your upgrades. Then again if you can find the right buyer who's willing to give you a premium for your upgrades, then more power to you.

You spend more for the M, but in another 3 years it's going to also be worth much more. Again, "prestige factor" generally isn't why people buy M cars. Most people just see the M3/4 as just another glorified 3/4 series, they haven't got a clue...and there are much more "prestige factor" BMW's you can get into for less than the cost of the M3/4

Warranty was only brought into the discussion because you were implying the modified 340i is a better daily commuter for the value. Typically when you mod cars you lose the warranty/reliability factor. So for the gains and the added reliability the M is a clear winner here as it has all that plus more in its stock form vs running a heavily modified 3 series car.

It seems you went with Dinan so you still have a warranty so to speak though you also can run into issues (with Dinan or any aftermarket tuning). It's more stress on the components more prone to drive train errors, CEL's etc..and while you may have the warranty matched by Dinan, it's still more prone to issues appearing. Adding 100+ hp/tq to the 340 would be liking having 550+whp on an F80 car. It's just more prone to stuff happening with or without the warranty coverage and potential for more headache and dealership visits.

It's clear though you have justified that your modified 340i is worth it more to you for the price differential. That's perfectly fine, to each their own. The fact remains however that the M3 will still hold resale much better over time as well as have much better reliability than your modified 340i. The S55 is also a much better mod friendly platform to start with and you get better gains for the $$.

You say your comments aren't emotionally attached, but it's human nature to justify our actions and validate our purchases or what we can or can't afford. Tell me this, have you driven an M3? Because I have owned and been in both (modified and non modified 3 series) and there really is no comparison. Apples and oranges.

It seems you are making an argument/comparison based on not even have driven a current M3, while many here came from F30 cars (and modified F30 cars) so how can you have a valid opinion on something you haven't even experienced? If you have driven one, please correct me if I'm wrong it's simply an assumption based on your posts.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Might be good to have an open mind to the new B58 .

Oh for sure. B58 equipped car (eg x340) is right up there on list of family haulers I'm interested in checking out.

I don't see that powertrain as good foundation for my "fun" car (I personally prefer the Uber durable cheap Japanese hamster powered 4cyl, the ones with more direct Motorsport ties like Mezger, or overpower American v8 like LS7 for that usage pattern)

Btw, you should take off the coilovers and diff from your car and part it out. Non enthusiasts won't pay more for them and enthusiasts will know why you put them on the car. .

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ejn1

I guess high school was just let out lol

MOAR power

[NewM3driver]

Originally Posted by RaidersFan

Hi everyone,

My fiance is due for an upgrade: her 335is is out of warranty shortly, and it is better to get 5 seats this time around.

We have been keen on getting a low mileage M3 or M4, but her new job requires a lot of mileage with only $.40/mile of reimbursement, which is not going to offset an M-car.

Questions: how would a modded (say, upgraded suspension) 340i compare to a stock F80 M3? How about her current 335is (which has Dinan sways). If, for example, we threw $3500 into coilovers and swaybar?

Looking at a manual in either: I assume the tranny is the same in the M3/340i?

This car won't see the track, but she is every bit the enthusiast. It can't suck, or be worse than her 335 is, otherwise, I will never hear the end of it!

Not even close. If you want the M get it. It's not about going fast. The car is just a different animal all around. Trust me.

[uniqueMR]

Originally Posted by NewM3driver

Not even close. If you want the M get it. It's not about going fast. The car is just a different animal all around. Trust me.

100% agreed. M cars are in different league.

[Blksnowflake]

This has been discussed at nauseam on every enthusiast world.
Can I make my WRX an STI
My Lancer Ralliart an Evo
My GTI a GOLF R
My S4 an RS4
My Mustang a GT350
Is my Tudor Blackbay the same as an 114060
No, no, no, no and no, over and over no.

Most of these cars have different engines altoghether, but most may assume because they are both I6 engines that they can tune their 335/340 to the same performance. Yes it may make the same or more "power" but there's more to it than simple horsepower numbers.

It's just a different build car from the ground up.
Look for videos on YouTube with the head engineer for M describing the development of the chasis, transmission, and engine. There's also one that Chris Harris did. He said it shouldn't even be called "from a 3 series" because it's altogether different.

If you cannot afford it, then you will find justifications in mods that you say will make it equal...if you can afford then you will just make the jump.
As someone who wanted for many years an M car and came from a Evo X....and waited and waited and finally got an M3, I'm extremely, extremely happy.
I've driven a 335 and it's fast stock, would be pretty amazing with mods I would assume, but when I crank up my F80 M3 it feels like a battleship.
If you aren't in a position to buy an M3 used/new I would just get the best car my money could buy, period. I create my happiness within, from the money I am able to earn and use as needed. My Evo made me incredibly happy even though I wanted an M3.
Enjoy the life you make for yourself, not the ones that are available out there.

[IDBGOD]

Originally Posted by ejn1

Point was my car was $45k with mods and a comparably equipped used M3 was $10-15k more and its significantly better than stock and its closes the performance gap substantially but not in all areas vs a stock M3 and is better in some other areas. All the other noise around resell, warranty, reliability is at the least very debatable. You seem to throw a lot of variables and infer that in the end, its all a wash. I dont agree but you do and that's why you have the m3. All good. I haven't driven a current model M3 but have read a shit load about them which is still a fair point by you but my counter is that you haven't driven an 340 modded like mine either, im assuming. So we are both in the same boat in that regard. My point with the first response wasn't to give a full review of the differences but really to share what i have seen with mine.... and if you go down the list of trying logically compare, they are not worlds apart and I believe the B58 is a likely a better starting point for the engine to tune from.

Read this:
http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/09/12/bu...r-tune-a-335i/

End of thread /

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by RaidersFan

Hi everyone,

My fiance is due for an upgrade: her 335is is out of warranty shortly, and it is better to get 5 seats this time around.

We have been keen on getting a low mileage M3 or M4, but her new job requires a lot of mileage with only $.40/mile of reimbursement, which is not going to offset an M-car.

Questions: how would a modded (say, upgraded suspension) 340i compare to a stock F80 M3? How about her current 335is (which has Dinan sways). If, for example, we threw $3500 into coilovers and swaybar?

Looking at a manual in either: I assume the tranny is the same in the M3/340i?

This car won't see the track, but she is every bit the enthusiast. It can't suck, or be worse than her 335 is, otherwise, I will never hear the end of it!

Have her test drive a new 340i and see what she thinks. No, it won't be worse than her 335i, it will be better. You can add a Dinan Stage 1 tune and it will show a noticeable improvement over stock and also smooth out engine performance. It will be a very quick commuter car.

If that is not enough, then get the M3. The M3 definitely wins on looks. But you will pay for those looks w/ higher insurance and gasoline.

[ZoneLaps]

Originally Posted by ejn1

I had 2015 Audi S4 and wasnt a big fan also and got rid of it. Related to your comment, my car is also a DD so i love the low end torque and smooth power band of the B58 versus an engine that's screaming all the time. Maybe when the 2019 M3 comes out, i will be tempted!

I hope you didn't take as big of a bath on the S4 as I did the S5. On the plus side, it was a better than even trade out for an M4 (because the M4 was 3 years older), so all was not lost.

On the low end torque issue, if you move to an F8x, you won't have any issue with torque. My F82 is a torque beast. It was only the e9x that had that issue because of the high-revving v8.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by ejn1

I had 2015 Audi S4 and wasnt a big fan also and got rid of it. Related to your comment, my car is also a DD so i love the low end torque and smooth power band of the B58 versus an engine that's screaming all the time. Maybe when the 2019 M3 comes out, i will be tempted!

FYI. There won't be a 2019 M3. More like a 2020/2021 M3

[Refined]

ejn1, do you by chance have a fake m badge mod as well? I hear no heavily modified 3 series is complete without one.

[Refined]

Originally Posted by ejn1

You fit the Jeremy Clarkson characterization of M3 owners very well!

Why thank you!

So... you rockin the badge or what?

[MNoob]

Originally Posted by Refined

ejn1, do you by chance have a fake m badge mod as well? I hear no heavily modified 3 series is complete without one.

That's some funny shit

[MNoob]

Originally Posted by ejn1

lmao, might be hard for you to imagine someone not wanting to be like you lol. Heck, i bet your wife or partner even wants to be like you. done back in forth with a 10yr old.

.

[MNoob]

Originally Posted by ejn1

You must be his wife/partner coming to rescue lol...

dude, I don't date. your mom doesn't let me.