Bare minimum changes necessary for tracking F8x

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by TheBreeze

. Keep it simple and let your progress as a driver dictate mods you need to get to that next level safely. I've seen plenty of drivers hit a "comfort wall" with HPDEs where they are simply not comfortable going any faster. Nothing wrong with that. it's supposed to be fun, not scared the shit out of you. If your "comfort wall" means you never melt the PS4S off the car, then no more mods necessary .

GREAT advice

$$$ car you don’t feel comfortable writing off and big power without any safety gear other than stock 3pt and a helmet are super valid reasons to respect your individual “comfort wall”

[fanatic1]

Originally Posted by Tommy L Garage

Undersood. Thank you.

Ended up buying four NT01s 275 35 18.

I appreciate everyone's help.

Great choice Tommy!

[Rollrate]

I started in novice groups about 2 yrs ago and now run intermediate groups, mostly PCA events. If I were to start over, this would be the sequence:

Novice Group (bare minimum):
- PPF wrap whole front end
- Protect radiators with screen (see this post)
- Ferodo DS2500 pads

Intermediate Group:
- Ferodo DS1.11 pads (or equal track pad) + Castrol SRF fluid
- Front brake cooling ducts (see this post)
- MPHAS or similar
- Camber plates
- Track Wheels/Tires
- Wheel studs & lug nuts

[SD ///M4]

Originally Posted by jmg

Thinking of my next step in for my M3 CS. 6-8 track days a year 8-10 auto-crosses, driving to and from. Nothing too serious, I don't want to start playing the mod game until I get much better as a driver. I don't daily the car, maybe once or twice a week to work for fun. Think OEM++.

So far:

MPHAS
GC Camber Plates
PS4S

Possible next steps:
RE-71R - 265/30/19f 285/35/20r - I originally wanted track wheels, but the streetability of RE-71R's might let me just stick with the OEM wheels. I would love to go 295/30/20r but the short sidewall is a concern.

Brakes - I want to stick with the stock brakes/rotors and get pads and fluid.

What should I lean on first, brakes or tires? Any suggestions with the stock brakes what pad will work best for PS4S street tires? - Endless ME20, Ferodo DS2500 or PFC08?

The stock brake pads will not last long at the track, possibly not even a full weekend. I've never run my stock pads at the track. Remember, you have to be able to drive home after (unless you're trailering). Never go to the track without a spare set of brake pads!

My suggested upgrade order:

• Brake pads - I've been using Pagid RSL29s for almost 4 years (not the same set!)
• Dedicated track wheels and tires. I run Apex EC-7 18x10 & 18x11, Nitto NT01 275/35-18 & 305/35-18.
• Camber plates and springs - I have GC camber plates and Dinan HAS, but I would get MP HAS if I did it again.

I've used this setup for almost 4 years. My wife's 2018 M3 has the same setup, except for the camber plates and HAS. I've been tracking various cars for over 20 years, and I've run at all of the SoCal tracks, and Laguna Seca, as well as Nurburgring Nordschleife, Circuit Park Zandvoort, and Spa Francorchamps in Europe. I did 8 track days last year. I've run in the A/Advanced/Solo group for a long time with BMW CCA and Advanced/D Group with Audi Club. There are definite reasons why I recommend doing your upgrades in this order.

Are you doing Buttonwillow next weekend with the BMW CCA? My wife and I will both be there.

[BetrayMyWord]

Originally Posted by Rollrate

I started in novice groups about 2 yrs ago and now run intermediate groups, mostly PCA events. If I were to start over, this would be the sequence:

Novice Group:
- PPF wrap whole front end
- Protect radiators with screen (see this post)
- Ferodo DS2500 pads

Intermediate Group:
- Ferodo DS1.11 pads (or equal track pad) + Castrol SRF fluid
- Front brake cooling ducts (see this post)
- MPHAS or similar
- Camber plates
- Track Wheels/Tires
- Wheel studs & lug nuts

My path is similar too ! After hpde-ed for one year, I upgraded my brake pads&fluid and installed camber plates; and they all came after lessons learned.

Tho I never heard of the radiator issue before; what might benefit from wheel stud conversion, except for easier track wheel/brake pads swap?

[jmg]

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

The stock brake pads will not last long at the track, possibly not even a full weekend. I've never run my stock pads at the track. Remember, you have to be able to drive home after (unless you're trailering). Never go to the track without a spare set of brake pads!

My suggested upgrade order:

• Brake pads - I've been using Pagid RSL29s for almost 4 years (not the same set!)
• Dedicated track wheels and tires. I run Apex EC-7 18x10 & 18x11, Nitto NT01 275/35-18 & 305/35-18.
• Camber plates and springs - I have GC camber plates and Dinan HAS, but I would get MP HAS if I did it again.

I've used this setup for almost 4 years. My wife's 2018 M3 has the same setup, except for the camber plates and HAS. I've been tracking various cars for over 20 years, and I've run at all of the SoCal tracks, and Laguna Seca, as well as Nurburgring Nordschleife, Circuit Park Zandvoort, and Spa Francorchamps in Europe. I did 8 track days last year. I've run in the A/Advanced/Solo group for a long time with BMW CCA and Advanced/D Group with Audi Club. There are definite reasons why I recommend doing your upgrades in this order.

Are you doing Buttonwillow next weekend with the BMW CCA? My wife and I will both be there.

I keep hearing how the Pagids aren't what they used to be... QC issues.

I won't be at Buttonwillow next weekend, but I will be at Streets Of Willow friday!

[Rollrate]

Originally Posted by BetrayMyWord

My path is similar too ! After hpde-ed for one year, I upgraded my brake pads&fluid and installed camber plates; and they all came after lessons learned.

Tho I never heard of the radiator issue before; what might benefit from wheel stud conversion, except for easier track wheel/brake pads swap?

IMO stock lug bolts are fine for "bare minimum" track configuration because there will be no need to swap wheels. Later on with track wheels and tires, here's some reasons to invest in studs:

1) The studs reduce swap time & effort by about 50%. It's a PIA to line up the holes and put a wrench on those bolts 4-8 times per event depending on weather (note: I run NT01 in the dry, street PS4S wet).

2) In a season with 6 events, the bolts will cycle in and out of the hub roughly 36 times = wear & tear on hub and hope you don't cross thread with that brand new electric impact wrench.

3) Numerous reports in other threads of lug bolts failing during track use with recommendations to replace bolts annually. The failures appear to correlate with track wheel/tire setups (higher forces). There are no reports of studs failing that I can find. Why? My guess is repeated torque cycling (especially with use of an impact wrench) on a lug bolt puts severe instantaneous torque stress concentrated on the bolt shank causing cracks to form and propogate to fatigue failure. Whereas, there is much less (almost zero) torque on a stud during loosening/tightening of the nut, so I suppose no need to replace.

[jfritz27]

Originally Posted by Rollrate

3) Numerous reports in other threads of lug bolts failing during track use with recommendations to replace bolts annually. The failures appear to correlate with track wheel/tire setups (higher forces). There are no reports of studs failing that I can find. Why? My guess is repeated torque cycling (especially with use of an impact wrench) on a lug bolt puts severe instantaneous torque stress concentrated on the bolt shank causing cracks to form and propogate to fatigue failure. Whereas, there is much less (almost zero) torque on a stud during loosening/tightening of the nut, so I suppose no need to replace.

Actually, it's my understanding the studs should most definitely be considered a wear and tear item. Search around and you'll find reports of badness happening with a worn stud gone bad. I believe Apex recommends changing studs once/season if used heavily. Given my intermediate use, I plan on doing it every other year.

See the FAQ section towards end:
https://www.apexraceparts.com/media/...structions.pdf

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by Rollrate

IMO stock lug bolts are fine for "bare minimum" track configuration because there will be no need to swap wheels. Later on with track wheels and tires, here's some reasons to invest in studs:

1) The studs reduce swap time & effort by about 50%. It's a PIA to line up the holes and put a wrench on those bolts 4-8 times per event depending on weather (note: I run NT01 in the dry, street PS4S wet).

2) In a season with 6 events, the bolts will cycle in and out of the hub roughly 36 times = wear & tear on hub and hope you don't cross thread with that brand new electric impact wrench.

3) Numerous reports in other threads of lug bolts failing during track use with recommendations to replace bolts annually. The failures appear to correlate with track wheel/tire setups (higher forces). There are no reports of studs failing that I can find. Why? My guess is repeated torque cycling (especially with use of an impact wrench) on a lug bolt puts severe instantaneous torque stress concentrated on the bolt shank causing cracks to form and propogate to fatigue failure. Whereas, there is much less (almost zero) torque on a stud during loosening/tightening of the nut, so I suppose no need to replace.

Nothing wrong with using stock wheel bolts and lining up the hole(s) with the ole' bolt....isn't hard if you're over the age of 20. I've taken the wheels off dozens of times, both at the track and at home, without much fuss.

Not sure I've ever seen a failed bolt at a track event, but I have seen a handful of studs break and lead to missed sessions on track. Unless I had a dedicated track car I wouldn't bother with using them. Keep it simple.

Originally Posted by jfritz27

Actually, it's my understanding the studs should most definitely be considered a wear and tear item. Search around and you'll find reports of badness happening with a worn stud gone bad. I believe Apex recommends changing studs once/season if used heavily. Given my intermediate use, I plan on doing it every other year.

See the FAQ section towards end:
https://www.apexraceparts.com/media/...structions.pdf

+1

[Gomeler]

For the lugs vs studs issue, I bought a set of guide pins. Install a guide pin, mount the wheel with the guide pin, install a few lug bolts, remove the guide pin and complete tire install. I didn't fancy balancing a 20lb wheel/tire without dropping it on a CCB rotor during removal/install. If this was a car where tire-changing had to be fast, I'd install studs in a heartbeat.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

Actually, it's my understanding the studs should most definitely be considered a wear and tear item. Search around and you'll find reports of badness happening with a worn stud gone bad. I believe Apex recommends changing studs once/season if used heavily. Given my intermediate use, I plan on doing it every other year.

See the FAQ section towards end:
https://www.apexraceparts.com/media/...structions.pdf

If you’re using R tires or slicks, by $0.02 would be to check hubs in off season and change lugs annually, and studs at same time as hubs.

[Gomeler]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

If you’re using R tires or slicks, by $0.02 would be to check hubs in off season and change lugs annually, and studs at same time as hubs.

Does anyone know how long F8x front bearings actually last? I'm used to my NA6 Miata's replacement interval of starting each enduro weekend on a fresh set of front hubs, and rebuilding the rears each winter. I'm guessing the F8x bearings are pretty beefy based on the lack of conversation around replacement intervals.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

Does anyone know how long F8x front bearings actually last? I'm used to my NA6 Miata's replacement interval of starting each enduro weekend on a fresh set of front hubs, and rebuilding the rears each winter. I'm guessing the F8x bearings are pretty beefy based on the lack of conversation around replacement intervals.

I'm on a similar hub plan with my NA8 spec miata so I feel you on that, bro!

I recall seeing Jacob's thread about replacing his hubs after a season or 2 of tracking on Pirelli slicks but people using RE71R or NT01 tires seem all good, so maybe it's just a consideration for slicks users, and just a "check it" item for others who aren't using as aggressive at tire.

I certainly didn't give hubs any thought in 2 seasons of HPDE on RE11 in my F80

[CanAutM3]

The wheel lugs on the F8X are definitely a wear item that I would recommend replacing after every 30-40 days. I sheared two lugs on my 2015 M4 until I decided to replace them regularly. Looking at the fracture point, they were clearly cycled out. IMO, this is a result of thermal expansion. Studs suffer the same fate and require just as frequent replacement. I’ve seen many of my track buddies with studs that experienced stud failures.

As for installing wheels with the standard lugs, it is a non-issue for me. I never struggled to line up the bolt holes, even when using spacers.

[jkronq]

I had my first ever track day this past weekend at Carolina Motorsports Park 2.2 mile road course. I ran 10 laps in two sessions. The first a 4 lap and the second a 6 lap. I have a bone stock 2017 manual F80 comp. I had an absolute blast and I think I am now an addict as I can't wait for my next time out. A couple questions for the group.

1) toward the end of each session I was experiencing a spongy brake pedal. I assume it was due to overheated fluid since I did have brakes but the pedal travel was longer and softer. My car has only 23k miles and fluid was flushed 3k miles ago per the dealer. Should I change to a high temp fluid like castroil?

2) I do think I should change brake pads. I looked at Akebono as a hybrid track/street pad but got a bit of sticker shock. From reading this post and others Ferodo seems to be the pad of choice. Is this a good street and track pad?

3) Tire pressure: my cold tire pressure was 33. On the track after a few laps with heated tires my pressures went up to 38-40 pounds. That seem very high to me. Should I be starting with a lower cold tire temp?

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by jkronq

I had my first ever track day this past weekend at Carolina Motorsports Park 2.2 mile road course. I ran 10 laps in two sessions. The first a 4 lap and the second a 6 lap. I have a bone stock 2017 manual F80 comp. I had an absolute blast and I think I am now an addict as I can't wait for my next time out. A couple questions for the group.

1) toward the end of each session I was experiencing a spongy brake pedal. I assume it was due to overheated fluid since I did have brakes but the pedal travel was longer and softer. My car has only 23k miles and fluid was flushed 3k miles ago per the dealer. Should I change to a high temp fluid like castroil?

2) I do think I should change brake pads. I looked at Akebono as a hybrid track/street pad but got a bit of sticker shock. From reading this post and others Ferodo seems to be the pad of choice. Is this a good street and track pad?

3) Tire pressure: my cold tire pressure was 33. On the track after a few laps with heated tires my pressures went up to 38-40 pounds. That seem very high to me. Should I be starting with a lower cold tire temp?

Stock pads during that event? Change those and report back after the next event prior to changing fluid.

36-41PSI hot is right based on my experience, but others here may prefer to run less. Make sure to check with an actual tire gauge if possible.

[TheBreeze]

Originally Posted by jkronq

I had my first ever track day this past weekend at Carolina Motorsports Park 2.2 mile road course. I ran 10 laps in two sessions. The first a 4 lap and the second a 6 lap. I have a bone stock 2017 manual F80 comp. I had an absolute blast and I think I am now an addict as I can't wait for my next time out. A couple questions for the group.

1) toward the end of each session I was experiencing a spongy brake pedal. I assume it was due to overheated fluid since I did have brakes but the pedal travel was longer and softer. My car has only 23k miles and fluid was flushed 3k miles ago per the dealer. Should I change to a high temp fluid like castroil?

2) I do think I should change brake pads. I looked at Akebono as a hybrid track/street pad but got a bit of sticker shock. From reading this post and others Ferodo seems to be the pad of choice. Is this a good street and track pad?

3) Tire pressure: my cold tire pressure was 33. On the track after a few laps with heated tires my pressures went up to 38-40 pounds. That seem very high to me. Should I be starting with a lower cold tire temp?

1.) Hard to say exactly why you got spongy pedal considering you just had fluid changed. Could be air in the lines, pads, or low quality fluid. Upgrade fluid to RBF600 or something similar. If you plan on tracking a lot, then splurging on Castrol SRF makes some sense. Conventional fluids have to be changed much more frequently, while SRF can easily last a year.

2.) A hard NO on Akebonos for tracking. Akebono Euros are GREAT low-dust street pads, but they won't hold up on the track. If Akebonos gave you sticker shock, the price of good track pads will make you pass out ;-). Being that you're just starting out, something like Stoptech Sports or Ferodo DS2500s should suffice for street/track pads. Granted this is a generalization, but it's unlikely your speeds as a beginner will warrant full on track pads, especially if you're going to stick to street tires for now.

3.) No one size fits all answer regarding pressures. Keep an eye on wear patterns. Overinflated tires will get slick because they balloon and can't maintain the maximum contact patch. Too little pressure will make it feel squirmy and accelerate shoulder wear. 38 PSI hot pressures is probably somewhere in the ballpark, so probably a safe target for now. Note that CMP is notorious for eating tires, so take that into account. Once they repave this summer, it should be much better. Other area tracks like VIR are WAY nicer.

Welcome to the hobby

[Gomeler]

Originally Posted by jkronq

I had my first ever track day this past weekend at Carolina Motorsports Park 2.2 mile road course. I ran 10 laps in two sessions. The first a 4 lap and the second a 6 lap. I have a bone stock 2017 manual F80 comp. I had an absolute blast and I think I am now an addict as I can't wait for my next time out. A couple questions for the group.

1) toward the end of each session I was experiencing a spongy brake pedal. I assume it was due to overheated fluid since I did have brakes but the pedal travel was longer and softer. My car has only 23k miles and fluid was flushed 3k miles ago per the dealer. Should I change to a high temp fluid like castroil?

2) I do think I should change brake pads. I looked at Akebono as a hybrid track/street pad but got a bit of sticker shock. From reading this post and others Ferodo seems to be the pad of choice. Is this a good street and track pad?

3) Tire pressure: my cold tire pressure was 33. On the track after a few laps with heated tires my pressures went up to 38-40 pounds. That seem very high to me. Should I be starting with a lower cold tire temp?

I think you've received some good answers. My one recommendation would be picking up a tread-depth tool. Stock car without camber plates, monitor your tire wear across the tire. As you get more confident, you will corner harder, and the stock camber will start to eat your front outside shoulders. You can chalk the shoulder of the tire to see how badly the shoulder is rolling and wearing between sessions. Higher pressures will help stabilize the shoulder, but negatively impact grip due to the ballooning as another person mentioned.

Camber plates will dramatically help on achieving a better wear pattern, but that's another expense to buy/install/align them. Definitely worth it if you're considering several weekends/year, might not be necessary if you are only thinking of 1-2 weekends/year.

[jkronq]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

Stock pads during that event? Change those and report back after the next event prior to changing fluid.

36-41PSI hot is right based on my experience, but others here may prefer to run less. Make sure to check with an actual tire gauge if possible.

Stock pads yes. As mentioned my car is bone stock. I don't see where pad's would cause a spongy pedal thought. It had longer travel telling me it would be i boiled my fluid. I will change pads regardless. thank you

[jkronq]

Originally Posted by TheBreeze

1.) Hard to say exactly why you got spongy pedal considering you just had fluid changed. Could be air in the lines, pads, or low quality fluid. Upgrade fluid to RBF600 or something similar. If you plan on tracking a lot, then splurging on Castrol SRF makes some sense. Conventional fluids have to be changed much more frequently, while SRF can easily last a year.

2.) A hard NO on Akebonos for tracking. Akebono Euros are GREAT low-dust street pads, but they won't hold up on the track. If Akebonos gave you sticker shock, the price of good track pads will make you pass out ;-). Being that you're just starting out, something like Stoptech Sports or Ferodo DS2500s should suffice for street/track pads. Granted this is a generalization, but it's unlikely your speeds as a beginner will warrant full on track pads, especially if you're going to stick to street tires for now.

3.) No one size fits all answer regarding pressures. Keep an eye on wear patterns. Overinflated tires will get slick because they balloon and can't maintain the maximum contact patch. Too little pressure will make it feel squirmy and accelerate shoulder wear. 38 PSI hot pressures is probably somewhere in the ballpark, so probably a safe target for now. Note that CMP is notorious for eating tires, so take that into account. Once they repave this summer, it should be much better. Other area tracks like VIR are WAY nicer.

Welcome to the hobby

Thank you for all the information. I will go with the Ferodo pads and new fluids.
I spent about an hour talking to the new track owner Mike Sullivan at the track this weekend. He is looking at June/july for the new pavement. They have two quotes and waiting on one more. He seems like a great guy and has some interesting plans for the track. Should be fun.

[jkronq]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

I think you've received some good answers. My one recommendation would be picking up a tread-depth tool. Stock car without camber plates, monitor your tire wear across the tire. As you get more confident, you will corner harder, and the stock camber will start to eat your front outside shoulders. You can chalk the shoulder of the tire to see how badly the shoulder is rolling and wearing between sessions. Higher pressures will help stabilize the shoulder, but negatively impact grip due to the ballooning as another person mentioned.

Camber plates will dramatically help on achieving a better wear pattern, but that's another expense to buy/install/align them. Definitely worth it if you're considering several weekends/year, might not be necessary if you are only thinking of 1-2 weekends/year.

Great information. Camber Plates are for sure in my near future. Right now my main focus is Driver Mods, handling and Safety. Doing some more track days with an instructor and better braking I see as a must do now. Camber Plates later this summer. I like the suggestion of the chalk line. Will do that for sure.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by jkronq

I had my first ever track day this past weekend at Carolina Motorsports Park 2.2 mile road course. I ran 10 laps in two sessions. The first a 4 lap and the second a 6 lap. I have a bone stock 2017 manual F80 comp. I had an absolute blast and I think I am now an addict as I can't wait for my next time out. A couple questions for the group.

1) toward the end of each session I was experiencing a spongy brake pedal. I assume it was due to overheated fluid since I did have brakes but the pedal travel was longer and softer. My car has only 23k miles and fluid was flushed 3k miles ago per the dealer. Should I change to a high temp fluid like castroil?

2) I do think I should change brake pads. I looked at Akebono as a hybrid track/street pad but got a bit of sticker shock. From reading this post and others Ferodo seems to be the pad of choice. Is this a good street and track pad?

3) Tire pressure: my cold tire pressure was 33. On the track after a few laps with heated tires my pressures went up to 38-40 pounds. That seem very high to me. Should I be starting with a lower cold tire temp?

Welcome! The big bit me about a year ago! I'm still learning a lot but it's a lot of fun and challenging. My $0.02 based on my past year's experience:

1) I don't know much about that particular track but it shouldn't be getting spongy after just one 4-6 lap session. Is DSC on? M Dynamic? These will tend to heat up the brakes if you are constantly breaking traction as they will be constantly being used to correct your trajectory. As a beginner, for me, the DSC light was definitely blinking more than it should have been! Maybe use that blinking light as a guide that you are asking the car/tires to do too much at that particular moment. Eventually you will want to turn DSC completely off at some point and you will find your lap times decrease if you knew how to dance on the limits of your car. Be safe, don't be afraid to dial it down and get your lines and technique down. Don't be pressured into breaking lap times.

2) I've never heard of Akebono. Pagid, PFC, Ferodo, are popular. I've heard really good things about Endless being an excellent street/track pad.

3) It depends on the tires, but with stock MPSS I like to stay below 38 hot. Are you using a gauge or the iDrive? Use a quality gauge. IDrive is okay, but should only be used as a quick reference.