Stock Brakes Severe Let Down...

[consolidated]

As said above, keep in mind titanium shims keep the heat on the pad side of the caliper for better or worse. You MUST have high temperature pads or it will make the stock pad situation worse.

They are for keeping the heat on the pads and rotors and away from the calipers and fluid so you lose some of that heat sink.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by consolidated

As said above, keep in mind titanium shims keep the heat on the pad side of the caliper for better or worse. You MUST have high temperature pads or it will make the stock pad situation worse.

They are for keeping the heat on the pads and rotors and away from the calipers and fluid so you lose some of that heat sink.

Yep, I learned the "fun" way by melting a piston seal and having it leak brake fluid everywhere in my M5 in the old days -- such an interesting time on track that day, thankfully no fire. I was using PFC01 pads, but they were worn down a lot. Ti shims to the rescue after that (along with a Stoptech BBK on that car too).

[drob23]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

I'm guessing he knows better than to put the e-brake on with hot rotors.

I'm headed to the track this weekend with my new M4. I don't plan on pushing it real hard maybe run 7/10 on just 2-3 20 minute sessions. It will be a second car for me, but I'll report back if I have any problems with light track use. Stock steels and pads too for me.

lol good luck with that...

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by drob23

lol good luck with that...

[turbo8765]

More info from the OP would be helpful…

Stock fluid?
What tire?
What track (is it a track that's hard on brakes)?
What is your experience level?

[F82FTW]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

I'm guessing he knows better than to put the e-brake on with hot rotors.

I'm headed to the track this weekend with my new M4. I don't plan on pushing it real hard maybe run 7/10 on just 2-3 20 minute sessions. It will be a second car for me, but I'll report back if I have any problems with light track use. Stock steels and pads too for me.

This is true. No e-brake and I even parked the car in neutral after a session.

I think what it might be is that I ran literally 7 20+ minute sessions with only 30-35 minutes between them, and I was pushing the car hard. Easily 9/10's

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by F82FTW

This is true. No e-brake and I even parked the car in neutral after a session.

I think what it might be is that I ran literally 7 20+ minute sessions with only 30-35 minutes between them, and I was pushing the car hard. Easily 9/10's

As I posted earlier, using the e-brake on an M3/4 would not make a difference for pad deposit.

Were you running with DSC or MDM activated?

[F82FTW]

Originally Posted by turbo8765

More info from the OP would be helpful…

Stock fluid?
What tire?
What track (is it a track that's hard on brakes)?
What is your experience level?

UPDATE: Dealer warrantied front pads and rotors; car now feels like new. Whether they were warped or not remains to be seen but I doubt it, based on all of your comments.

To answer the questions many have asked though, I was on stock PSS, stock pads, stock fluid...all stock. Running with DSC fully off. Fully.

I was at Buttonwillow where I have a fair amount of experience. FWIW, I ran a 2:02.705 with a bone stock car...apparently this is pretty damn fast.

[Sir Loin]

That's great! Glad your dealer has you covered. Was it filled under regular warranty (as in defect) or was it under maintenance (wear and tear)?

[turbo8765]

Originally Posted by F82FTW

I was at Buttonwillow where I have a fair amount of experience. FWIW, I ran a 2:02.705 with a bone stock car...apparently this is pretty damn fast.

Which Buttonwillow configuration/direction?

[MaynardZed]

I concur with OP after running INDE today, just ran two fifteen minute sessions and got bad fade at end of first session and halfway through second session on stock steels and pads.

The basic handling characteristics of the car exceeded my expectations, but there are several problems with the car in stock form that would need to be addressed for serious track duty. It's too late and I'm too tired to write tonight, but I'll put a full report in the lap times thread tomorrow.

I'll report that my E36 did great this weekend, won my group and beat several guys in higher groups on time trials. I ran the M4 on the same line so I'll have side by side comparisons.

[jbraslins]

I've either warped a rotor or have bad deposit after just one DE too Was running Pagid RSL1 upfront but street pads in the back with RBF600.

Got bad vibration after first two sessions of the first day. It seems like it's coming from the front, but that can be deceiving. I had all wheels and calipers off at the track, and did not find any issues with or rotors cracking. There was not anything obviously visible. Wheels felt solid, dont think it's a bearing. Put it all back together and just drove through the issue.

No fade problems though, and it stopped amazing.

Going to do a runout on all rotors today and see whats up.

[F82FTW]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

I've either warped a rotor or have bad deposit after just one DE too Was running Pagid RSL1 upfront but street pads in the back with RBF600.

Got bad vibration after first two sessions of the first day. It seems like it's coming from the front, but that can be deceiving. I had all wheels and calipers off at the track, and did not find any issues with or rotors cracking. There was not anything obviously visible. Wheels felt solid, dont think it's a bearing. Put it all back together and just drove through the issue.

No fade problems though, and it stopped amazing.

Going to do a runout on all rotors today and see whats up.

I saw your other post; please keep us posted as I'm starting to see an unfortunate pattern here...

[gthal]

Originally Posted by F82FTW

I saw your other post; please keep us posted as I'm starting to see an unfortunate pattern here...

Maybe but he was on after market pads and you were on stock pads IIRC. If it was pad transfer (which I believe it will turn out to be) then it is something else.

Jbraslins noted that he didn't bed his Pagid pads in and that, by itself, could have been the issue. Pad transfer from stock pads is fairly normal once the pad is heated beyond its operating range. For a track pad, my experience says this is more likely from the pad not being properly repaired, as opposed to being used outside its temp range. OEM pads likely from being too hot.

IMO, there is no issue with the steel rotor unless they had some defect. To me, this is all pad related in some way. Having said that, we shall see as more folks get to the track but what we also know is that there have been lots of others with no issue too. I'm out in a couple of weeks and will be on OEM pads (I haven't figured out what I want to do with track pads yet) so the car will be completely stock. I've overheated track pads before with a lighter car so I'll see how these hold up

[jbraslins]

Rotors runout ok. Nothing obvious. Vibration still ther after changing to street pads/wheels/tires. Prolly bad pad deposit. Hopefully will clear up in a few days. Wish PFC08s were available for F8X.

[W///]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

I concur with OP after running INDE today, just ran two fifteen minute sessions and got bad fade at end of first session and halfway through second session on stock steels and pads.

The basic handling characteristics of the car exceeded my expectations, but there are several problems with the car in stock form that would need to be addressed for serious track duty. It's too late and I'm too tired to write tonight, but I'll put a full report in the lap times thread tomorrow.

I'll report that my E36 did great this weekend, won my group and beat several guys in higher groups on time trials. I ran the M4 on the same line so I'll have side by side comparisons.

How was the cooling of the engine? Any issues?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jbraslins

Rotors runout ok. Nothing obvious. Vibration still ther after changing to street pads/wheels/tires. Prolly bad pad deposit. Hopefully will clear up in a few days. Wish PFC08s were available for F8X.

I also really liked the PF08 on my E92.

I read on the other thread that the F8X uses the same pad size as the F3X with the brake upgrade. Anyone know if PF08 exist for those brakes?

[MaynardZed]

Originally Posted by W///

How was the cooling of the engine? Any issues?

Engine ran nice and cool. 90 degree afternoon, but just two 15 minute sessions. Weakness looks to be brakes, tires (and alignment).

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1030500

A small part of me wishing I would've ordered the CCB, but I think we'll get the steels working better with pads, SS lines, and fluid.

[F82FTW]

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

Engine ran nice and cool. 90 degree afternoon, but just two 15 minute sessions. Weakness looks to be brakes, tires (and alignment).

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1030500

A small part of me wishing I would've ordered the CCB, but I think we'll get the steels working better with pads, SS lines, and fluid.

Seems to be an increasingly common standpoint...bummer.

I've been looking into Carbotech's offerings for F8x brake pads, and they have A LOT! However they require you to machine your rotors prior to install and also do not recommend drilled rotors for track use period.

Anyone know of slotted discs being available for F8x yet?

[Floridagator]

This thread is frustrating to me. Why is anyone surprised that the stock brakes don't work very well at the racetrack? NO pad will work well in every environment. This is a road car first, so BMW obviously prioritized (low) noise/dust/wear over track performance (as does every major manufacturer). BMW is aware of the brake limitations on the racetrack, which is exactly why they:

1) Put specific language in the manual indicating the pads should be changed before track use and
2) Developed a specific track-capable friction material available through the BMW Performance catalog

I also suspect the same people voicing their disappointment about the track performance would be the first ones to complain if the brakes were squealing.

At least with the F80 we have a good set of base hardware to work with (aluminum fixed calipers, composite discs). We weren't so lucky with the previous-generation cars.

Bottom line, if you want to go to the track, spend $500 on track pads, burnish them properly, you should be fine for some laps at 8/10ths. And if you want drive more than 8/10ths, you may want to consider racing rather than HPDE events.

Just my $0.02

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Floridagator

This thread is frustrating to me. Why is anyone surprised that the stock brakes don't work very well at the racetrack? NO pad will work well in every environment. This is a road car first, so BMW obviously prioritized (low) noise/dust/wear over track performance (as does every major manufacturer). BMW is aware of the brake limitations on the racetrack, which is exactly why they:

1) Put specific language in the manual indicating the pads should be changed before track use and
2) Developed a specific track-capable friction material available through the BMW Performance catalog

I also suspect the same people voicing their disappointment about the track performance would be the first ones to complain if the brakes were squealing.

At least with the F80 we have a good set of base hardware to work with (aluminum fixed calipers, composite discs). We weren't so lucky with the previous-generation cars.

Bottom line, if you want to go to the track, spend $500 on track pads, burnish them properly, you should be fine for some laps at 8/10ths. And if you want drive more than 8/10ths, you may want to consider racing rather than HPDE events.

Just my $0.02

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by F82FTW

UPDATE: Dealer warrantied front pads and rotors; car now feels like new. Whether they were warped or not remains to be seen but I doubt it, based on all of your comments.

Hmmm, d(st)ealer wants to maximize their revenue and profit at BMWs expense? Surprise, surprise. I'd be willing to place a huger wager that your rotor were not warped. Get em back, have a nice extra set or sell them.