Opinion on Big Brake Kits & Tracking

[Bruce AaLee]

Originally Posted by espressoo

Any reports of the CCB calipers (gold ones) changing colors? All of the M Performance school cars have them and I can’t imagine them changing to an ugly color. Have you considered upgrading to the CCB calipers and F10 M5 steel front rotors? Priced out it’s much cheaper than going aftermarket BBK on all 4 corners.

I have not heard of any, but they add weight and as I understand it, there are some clearance issues with those calipers certain wheels.

[Bruce AaLee]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

I have the stoptech trophy kit all around. 380mm, 6 piston/4 piston. I also run SRF and titanium shims. I have run the street “sport” compounds on the street and track as a hybrid, and then progressed to stoptech’s SR-33 track compound, which I have also dailied, albeit with a lot more noise.

The BBK gives me incredible pedal feel and consistency, way more swept area which I would think helps with modulation and again gives me a lot of confidence that I’m not going to face pad fade from too little thermal mass in the pad itself. The pads last a long time too. I have nothing to report in the way of rotor wear - I can feel no lip forming at the edge of the rotor, but I’ve only done about a dozen track events so far on the kit. Tracks I frequent include Summit Point, Dominion, and VIR.

For calibration, I run intermediate-advanced run groups, so I’m quicker than average but not competitive with high horsepower aero cars with experienced racers.

As far as the factory caliper discoloration is concerned, even BBK manufacturers warn against this and recommend black or red caliper colors if you plan on doing real track work, otherwise discoloration and fading are expected. So I wouldn’t blame BMW for using a poor paint quality, just in their color selection.

-Ash

Awesome, thanks for the info. The essex front calipers seam to have the most support on these forums for track use. They are also pretty expensive. I'll look into the Stoptech kit as well. For sure after 12 track events the stock rotors would start showing wear so that is good to know these are holding up.

[kevin @ eas]

Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee

Hi Tom,
Do yall carry the Esses/AP Racing setup for F80 M3s? I'm also looking for GC Camber plates as well. If so, please PM pricing.

Ali

PM sent

[ashmostro]

Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee

Awesome, thanks for the info. The essex front calipers seam to have the most support on these forums for track use. They are also pretty expensive. I'll look into the Stoptech kit as well. For sure after 12 track events the stock rotors would start showing wear so that is good to know these are holding up.

I'm of the opinion that for the enthusiast (read: not racer) any of the reputable brands will work "about the same" on the track. Brembo, Stoptech, AP, Sparta. Can't go wrong with any of them. I chose stoptech because the trophies gave me the anodized finish I wanted, along with the bridge mount method which most other than brembo utilize, all at the lowest cost of entry. Stoptech's design is the oldest so while it's less advanced than the AP and Sparta kits, that also means the R&D costs have mostly amortized and probably why the price is the lowest.

Buy what tickles your fancy among those brands and you will be pleased, IMO.

[Bruce AaLee]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

I'm of the opinion that for the enthusiast (read: not racer) any of the reputable brands will work "about the same" on the track. Brembo, Stoptech, AP, Sparta. Can't go wrong with any of them. I chose stoptech because the trophies gave me the anodized finish I wanted, along with the bridge mount method which most other than brembo utilize, all at the lowest cost of entry. Stoptech's design is the oldest so while it's less advanced than the AP and Sparta kits, that also means the R&D costs have mostly amortized and probably why the price is the lowest.

Buy what tickles your fancy among those brands and you will be pleased, IMO.

Solid reasoning. I'm working on a comparison between the brands and setups. Even with AP Racing there are options at different prices. Essex, Stillen, Mod Bargains all feature AP Racing hardware but each one seams to have different calipers, focus, and definitely different prices. I plan on doing about 8-10 track events this in the M3 and probably keep the car for 2 years. Since it is my daily driver and a very pretty car (Atlantis Blue, Carbon Roof, Black ZCP Wheels) I would prefer if the brakes had some bling factor as well.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee

Solid reasoning. I'm working on a comparison between the brands and setups. Even with AP Racing there are options at different prices. Essex, Stillen, Mod Bargains all feature AP Racing hardware but each one seams to have different calipers, focus, and definitely different prices. I plan on doing about 8-10 track events this in the M3 and probably keep the car for 2 years. Since it is my daily driver and a very pretty car (Atlantis Blue, Carbon Roof, Black ZCP Wheels) I would prefer if the brakes had some bling factor as well.

The Essex/AP brake kits for the F8x use AP calipers that are very similar to what pro race teams use. The difference is the Essex kit uses drop forged calipers vs. AP pro racing calipers that are forged (machined from a single piece of Al). The cost of a single pro racing caliper is $5-6k+! The Essex/AP F & R kits same 40-50 lb of unsprung weight - other kits offered for the F8x ADD unsprung weight. The only other kit that has the same level of track performance is from PFC (Z54/Z45 calipers) but they haven't released it for the F8x (it's identical to what's used on the factory-built M235i Racing) - I have PFC on my e92 M3 so I can compare the performance of the two brands.

The Stillen/AP kit is inferior to the Essex/AP kit, is heavy and costs about the same. However, if you prefer bling over performance then Stillen/AP is the way to go. Unlike the Essex/AP kit, you're stuck with pad compounds from a single manufacturer. The Essex/AP kit uses a pad shape that's offered by pretty much all manufactures in all compounds.

Mod Bargins - is a reseller of Stillen/AP kits

[ashmostro]

Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee

Solid reasoning. I'm working on a comparison between the brands and setups. Even with AP Racing there are options at different prices. Essex, Stillen, Mod Bargains all feature AP Racing hardware but each one seams to have different calipers, focus, and definitely different prices. I plan on doing about 8-10 track events this in the M3 and probably keep the car for 2 years. Since it is my daily driver and a very pretty car (Atlantis Blue, Carbon Roof, Black ZCP Wheels) I would prefer if the brakes had some bling factor as well.

Again, recognizing that the Radi-Cal AP setup is very likely "the best" if you care about the looks and want solid performance,you may want to consider these blue anodized Spartas on your gorgeous Atlantis Blue M3, although they may not be a perfect color match:

[ashmostro]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

The Essex/AP brake kits for the F8x use AP calipers that are very similar to what pro race teams use. The difference is the Essex kit uses drop forged calipers vs. AP pro racing calipers that are forged (machined from a single piece of Al). The cost of a single pro racing caliper is $5-6k+! The Essex/AP F & R kits same 40-50 lb of unsprung weight - other kits offered for the F8x ADD unsprung weight. The only other kit that has the same level of track performance is from PFC (Z54/Z45 calipers) but they haven't released it for the F8x (it's identical to what's used on the factory-built M235i Racing) - I have PFC on my e92 M3 so I can compare the performance of the two brands.

The Stillen/AP kit is inferior to the Essex/AP kit, is heavy and costs about the same. However, if you prefer bling over performance then Stillen/AP is the way to go. Unlike the Essex/AP kit, you're stuck with pad compounds from a single manufacturer. The Essex/AP kit uses a pad shape that's offered by pretty much all manufactures in all compounds.

Mod Bargins - is a reseller of Stillen/AP kits

As always, excellent info provided!

[FlyingLow78]

Wow...I didn't know people were getting their brakes hot enough to severely discolor the calipers. I'm surprised the paint shows so much discoloration without the driver complaining of boiled fluid. Are any of the affected cars running brake cooling ducts?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

As always, excellent info provided!

Thanks, Ash

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee

Hey guys,
I'm still breaking in my 2018 M3 ZCP but I'm starting to plan for the 2018 track season.

Last year, I shared a 2016 M3 with my wife and I drove 17 days on track and my wife did another 8 days split pretty even between COTA and MSR Cresson with a random 1-day event at TWS.

Track Setup: Stock 2016 M3 except:

• Castrol SRF
• Pagid Pads Front/Rear
• APEX EC-7 18x10/11" Staggered 18" Wheel Set
• Nitto NT01 Tires 275/305

I drove with MDM off after the first few events, but my wife still uses it. After the first 7-8 track days the front calipers started turning colors, a few track days later the rears started to change, and eventually, I ended up with black front and blue/green rear calipers. The stock front rotors started to show stress cracks about half way through the year and by the last few events the stress cracks started getting a little worrisome and I wouldn't push it any further. The rear rotors were fine. I never had any issues with the stock braking system in terms of fade or performance, but I was thoroughly annoyed by the discoloration of the calipers. I find it embarrassing the BMW chose a color/paint that can't keep up with high temperatures and makes the car look ridiculous.

Since I am planning on selling the 2016 M3 soon, I just freshened up the entire braking system by buying low-mileage used calipers and new front rotors. Overall, the total in brake related expenses for 25 track days comes out to be somewhere around $3300:

• $2000 in pads (4 Sets of Front Pads - $370 each & 2 Sets of Rears - $270 each)
• $800 to correct the caliper discoloration
• $500 to replace the front rotors

Obviously, if I were planning on keeping the car longer, I could have postponed the caliper refinish or replacement and then the total would be around $2500 in brake expenses, however, as bad as the calipers looked, I would have probably done it anyway.

On to the topic at hand:
I am considering upgrading the braking system of the new M3 before tracking it. My main reasons to upgrade would be:

• Eliminate Caliper Discoloration
• Possible Decrease in Brake Pad Wear Expenses
• Possible Decrease in Rotor Wear
• Possible improvement of brake feel or performance
• As a side benefit: Stock brake calipers, brakes, rotors are in new condition and can be solid or used to return to stock before selling the car.

I would like to hear some opinions and insight from people that have gone this route and track their cars regularly:

1. Are my reasons to upgrade solid?
2. Are there any reasons not to?
3. AP Racing, Stoptech, Brembo: Ap Racing seems to be preferred by track drivers, but I read great reviews on the brands as well.
4. Should I expect savings in terms of brake pad wear?
5. Anything else to consider?

Thanks in advance,

Ali

I own an Essex AP kit 9660&9449. Their track performance is amazing. I have gone through a set of Ferodo Unos which they give with a good discount with their kits in about 6-7months(24sessions). Now I'm buying PFC pads for the track and I'm expecting them to have a longer wear rate.
As M3SQRD mentioned there are plenty of pad options for them.
My rotors have some small heat cracks on them which is perfectly normal. I expect them to serve me at least till the next year. So you can say that rotor life will be around 1.5-2yrs if you track them as much as i do.(every month around 4-6 sessions of 20 minutes)
On the street you need to have a separate brake pad sets because the track pads such as Ferodo Uno is extremely noisy and I can't live with them in the city traffic.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

I own an Essex AP kit 9660&9449. Their track performance is amazing. I have gone through a set of Ferodo Unos which they give with a good discount with their kits in about 6-7months(24sessions). Now I'm buying PFC pads for the track and I'm expecting them to have a longer wear rate.
As M3SQRD mentioned there are plenty of pad options for them.
My rotors have some small heat cracks on them which is perfectly normal. I expect them to serve me at least till the next year. So you can say that rotor life will be around 1.5-2yrs if you track them as much as i do.(every month around 4-6 sessions of 20 minutes)
On the street you need to have a separate brake pad sets because the track pads such as Ferodo Uno is extremely noisy and I can't live with them in the city traffic.

Which PFC pad compound did you go with? As you know, PFC pads are my pad of choice

FYI, I had Carbotech make a custom rear pad for the R 9449 caliper. I run their 1521 street compound on the street. They already make pads for the F 9668 and 9660 calipers.

[Bruce AaLee]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

The Essex/AP brake kits for the F8x use AP calipers that are very similar to what pro race teams use. The difference is the Essex kit uses drop forged calipers vs. AP pro racing calipers that are forged (machined from a single piece of Al). The cost of a single pro racing caliper is $5-6k+! The Essex/AP F & R kits same 40-50 lb of unsprung weight - other kits offered for the F8x ADD unsprung weight. The only other kit that has the same level of track performance is from PFC (Z54/Z45 calipers) but they haven't released it for the F8x (it's identical to what's used on the factory-built M235i Racing) - I have PFC on my e92 M3 so I can compare the performance of the two brands.

The Stillen/AP kit is inferior to the Essex/AP kit, is heavy and costs about the same. However, if you prefer bling over performance then Stillen/AP is the way to go. Unlike the Essex/AP kit, you're stuck with pad compounds from a single manufacturer. The Essex/AP kit uses a pad shape that's offered by pretty much all manufactures in all compounds.

Mod Bargins - is a reseller of Stillen/AP kits

Thanks for the info. I don't prefer bling over performance, but I do want my car to look nice and running the front AP kit without the rear would look a bit off. Adding the rear AP/Essex brake kit brings the cost for the brakes up to around $9k. Its a significant investment and least a few thousand more than the other sets which are why understanding upfront/running costs and residual value helps make any decision easier. Thanks again.

[F3IGHTY]

Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee

Thanks for the info. I don't prefer bling over performance, but I do want my car to look nice and running the front AP kit without the rear would look a bit off. Adding the rear AP/Essex brake kit brings the cost for the brakes up to around $9k. Its a significant investment and least a few thousand more than the other sets which are why understanding upfront/running costs and residual value helps make any decision easier. Thanks again.

Just get the AP front kit, it'll perform so well you'll stop looking at the rear calipers.

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Which PFC pad compound did you go with? As you know, PFC pads are my pad of choice

FYI, I had Carbotech make a custom rear pad for the R 9449 caliper. I run their 1521 street compound on the street. They already make pads for the F 9668 and 9660 calipers.

Yes, your opinion and guidance were the main reason on my decision I went with f -11 r-01. I didn't have chance to use or track them yet.

I'm using the Ferodo DS2500 for street so far. I like their performance and sound(lack of it unless too cold) but I'm not sure about the pad wear.

How is Carbotech for street? Noise,wear rate,performance(in the importance order since the calipers already perform amazing) ?

By the way, Bruce AaLee the brake kits really performed amazingly and they look very cool. So far they are the most appreciated tune on the car including hi-flow PureTurbos..

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

Yes, your opinion and guidance were the main reason on my decision I went with f -11 r-01. I didn't have chance to use or track them yet.

I'm using the Ferodo DS2500 for street so far. I like their performance and sound(lack of it unless too cold) but I'm not sure about the pad wear.

How is Carbotech for street? Noise,wear rate,performance(in the importance order since the calipers already perform amazing) ?

By the way, Bruce AaLee the brake kits really performed amazingly and they look very cool. So far they are the most appreciated tune on the car including hi-flow PureTurbos..

PFC-11 F and PFC-01 R should work great together.

CT 1521 street compound - zero noise, good initial bite and can pretty much handle anything you do to them on the street. I also run these as street pads in the PFC caliipers on my e92 M3. BTW, CT race compounds are very good - my 2nd favorite race/track pads.

[CAOZKAN]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

PFC-11 F and PFC-01 R should work great together.

CT 1521 street compound - zero noise, good initial bite and can pretty much handle anything you do to them on the street. I also run these as street pads in the PFC caliipers on my e92 M3. BTW, CT race compounds are very good - my 2nd favorite race/track pads.

Thanks a lot when I'm done with Ferodos, I will go with Carbotech to try, I trust your first hand experience.

[Bruce AaLee]

Originally Posted by CAOZKAN

Thanks a lot when I'm done with Ferodos, I will go with Carbotech to try, I trust your first hand experience.

When you guys are looking for replacement pads for the 9668/9449 calipers, what do you search for? Since the 9668 calipers can accept 25mm pads, do the other pad manufacturers make pads in this thickness?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee

When you guys are looking for replacement pads for the 9668/9449 calipers, what do you search for? Since the 9668 calipers can accept 25mm pads, do the other pad manufacturers make pads in this thickness?

The CP9668 caliper uses the PFC 7790 pad profile with a 54 mm depth and 25 mm thickness. PFC, Hawk, CT, Ferodo, Pagid, etc. all offer this pad. This pad shape has been around for decades.

[Bruce AaLee]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

The CP9668 caliper uses the PFC 7790 pad profile with a 54 mm depth and 25 mm thickness. PFC, Hawk, CT, Ferodo, Pagid, etc. all offer this pad. This pad shape has been around for decades.

Awesome, thank you and sorry for the followup question. I tried a quick search for PFC 7790 + "BRAND" on google and it is definitely not the ideal way to look up the various options for pads of that shape. Is there an easier way to search for the options such as another car that uses this pad shape or a preferred vendor you go to?

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee

Awesome, thank you and sorry for the followup question. I tried a quick search for PFC 7790 + "BRAND" on google and it is definitely not the ideal way to look up the various options for pads of that shape. Is there an easier way to search for the options such as another car that uses this pad shape or a preferred vendor you go to?

Just search for "PFC7790 pad" or "Hawk HB109 pad". PFC 7790 = Hawk HB109. Some pad distributors have cross reference tables for different manufacturers.

[Bruce AaLee]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

Just search for "PFC7790 pad" or "Hawk HB109 pad". PFC 7790 = Hawk HB109. Some pad distributors have cross reference tables for different manufacturers.

Got it, thank you. I should be ordering the essex setup tomorrow.