Next Level Auto Brokers
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-08-2018, 04:31 PM   #45
MasterP
Colonel
720
Rep
2,342
Posts

Drives: All the M's
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Where do you want me?

iTrader: (8)

I'd go ST or AP/Essex/PFC over Sparta/Brembo. Sparta/Brembo use the same pad but you're limited to a pad no thicker than 18.5mm, but most are 16.5mm.

ST standard is 18mm and you can fit up to 20mm on the F8X and still have room for 1mm ti shims. Downside to ST kits are they are still street biased (even the trophy). You can and at COTA will burn up the dust boots even with shims.

The AP/Essex/PFC kits are more track biased. up to 25mm pad thickness and the pad shape is old and ubiquitous so it's a good value given how much thicker they are. AP/Esses don't have dust boots so no dust boots to burn up.

Not seen a PFC caliper on a F8X in person but on the E92 the Calipers are massive. Probably to accommodate the large pads.

A BBK cost wise no matter which you choose will have a lower operational cost than OEM. The ST friction rings are about the same if not lower priced than the OEM's. Solid discs will last a long time. If 8-10 track days total is all you're planning you'll likely not even need to replace them. Track pads for any of the race calipers will be less than or equal to what you'll spend for the baby 16.5mm OEM sized track pads. You won't have to worry about your calipers turning green. Though you can still discolor ST's painted calipers.

If I were buying new now I'd get AP/Essex.

Brake cooling highly recommended and solid/slotted only rotors a must.
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2018, 04:39 PM   #46
Bruce AaLee
Private First Class
Bruce AaLee's Avatar
United_States
34
Rep
189
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2C
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterP View Post
I'd go ST or AP/Essex/PFC over Sparta/Brembo. Sparta/Brembo use the same pad but you're limited to a pad no thicker than 18.5mm, but most are 16.5mm.

ST standard is 18mm and you can fit up to 20mm on the F8X and still have room for 1mm ti shims. Downside to ST kits are they are still street biased (even the trophy). You can and at COTA will burn up the dust boots even with shims.

The AP/Essex/PFC kits are more track biased. up to 25mm pad thickness and the pad shape is old and ubiquitous so it's a good value given how much thicker they are. AP/Esses don't have dust boots so no dust boots to burn up.

Not seen a PFC caliper on a F8X in person but on the E92 the Calipers are massive. Probably to accommodate the large pads.

A BBK cost wise no matter which you choose will have a lower operational cost than OEM. The ST friction rings are about the same if not lower priced than the OEM's. Solid discs will last a long time. If 8-10 track days total is all you're planning you'll likely not even need to replace them. Track pads for any of the race calipers will be less than or equal to what you'll spend for the baby 16.5mm OEM sized track pads. You won't have to worry about your calipers turning green. Though you can still discolor ST's painted calipers.

If I were buying new now I'd get AP/Essex.

Brake cooling highly recommended and solid/slotted only rotors a must.

Thanks for the post. I'm sold on the Essex kit and actually started toying with the idea of buying a nice used M4 and prep it as a dedicated track car. If so, then the brakes might stay with me longer than I keep the M3 and it would be great to just be able to swap them over without any regrets.
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2018, 04:47 PM   #47
M3SQRD
Major General
M3SQRD's Avatar
1927
Rep
5,299
Posts

Drives: E92 M3,G20 330ix,F22 240iX,F82
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Mid-Atlantic

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee View Post
Got it, thank you. I should be ordering the essex setup tomorrow.
Get a price quote from Harold at HP Autowerks (forum vendor)
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2018, 04:54 PM   #48
Bruce AaLee
Private First Class
Bruce AaLee's Avatar
United_States
34
Rep
189
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2C
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post
Get a price quote from Harold at HP Autowerks (forum vendor)
Thanks for the heads up!
Appreciate 0
      01-08-2018, 10:43 PM   #49
CAOZKAN
Lieutenant
Italy
98
Rep
468
Posts

Drives: Austin Yellow M4
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Milan/Monza

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post
Just search for "PFC7790 pad" or "Hawk HB109 pad". PFC 7790 = Hawk HB109. Some pad distributors have cross reference tables for different manufacturers.
Got it, thank you. I should be ordering the essex setup tomorrow.
There is a list of compatible pads on their website as well.
Appreciate 0
      01-21-2018, 07:07 PM   #50
Caliboy951
Second Lieutenant
Caliboy951's Avatar
United_States
202
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: 2016 M4
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: So Cal

iTrader: (1)

BBK should be the first thing you purchase if you plan on doing track days, the second is a good suspension! These cars make enough powder but stopping and turning is where it's at!
Then I'd do a set of rims and good track tires I also run Apex 18" and Nittos.
Attached Images
  
Appreciate 0
      01-21-2018, 07:15 PM   #51
ashmostro
Brigadier General
United_States
1247
Rep
4,088
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4cs | 2022 M550i
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Falls Church, VA

iTrader: (27)

Tell us more about your wheel and tire setup Caliboy!
Appreciate 0
      01-21-2018, 07:53 PM   #52
M3SQRD
Major General
M3SQRD's Avatar
1927
Rep
5,299
Posts

Drives: E92 M3,G20 330ix,F22 240iX,F82
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Mid-Atlantic

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliboy951 View Post
BBK should be the first thing you purchase if you plan on doing track days, the second is a good suspension! These cars make enough powder but stopping and turning is where it's at!
Then I'd do a set of rims and good track tires I also run Apex 18" and Nittos.
There's a decent amount of your front rotor face not being used. ST, or other pad manufacturers, doesn't offer a pad with a larger radial depth for the ST60 caliper so all of the rotor is used? Using all of the rotor face with a larger pad will decrease pad wear, increase the area to transfer kinetic energy to thermal energy, and decrease rotor temps. I'm just surprised to see this much of the rotor not being used - why does ST offer such a large rotor ring if they had no plans to offer a pad to use the increased rotor radial depth?
Appreciate 1
      01-23-2018, 10:38 AM   #53
Caliboy951
Second Lieutenant
Caliboy951's Avatar
United_States
202
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: 2016 M4
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: So Cal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
Tell us more about your wheel and tire setup Caliboy!
I use Apex EC-7 18" rims and prefer Nitto NT01 tires and I run 275/35/18 front and 305/35/18 rears.
Appreciate 0
      01-23-2018, 10:44 AM   #54
Caliboy951
Second Lieutenant
Caliboy951's Avatar
United_States
202
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: 2016 M4
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: So Cal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post
There's a decent amount of your front rotor face not being used. ST, or other pad manufacturers, doesn't offer a pad with a larger radial depth for the ST60 caliper so all of the rotor is used? Using all of the rotor face with a larger pad will decrease pad wear, increase the area to transfer kinetic energy to thermal energy, and decrease rotor temps. I'm just surprised to see this much of the rotor not being used - why does ST offer such a large rotor ring if they had no plans to offer a pad to use the increased rotor radial depth?
I agree and I'm sure why there is so much that's not used. I will say that they work extremely well. Here's a videos that shows how I'm able to make up time under braking even against some race cars:


Because the power delivery is so hard coming out of corners is my weakness but high speed and braking is where I'm most comfortable.
Appreciate 1
mcvaughan702.00
      01-23-2018, 12:37 PM   #55
ashmostro
Brigadier General
United_States
1247
Rep
4,088
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4cs | 2022 M550i
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Falls Church, VA

iTrader: (27)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliboy951 View Post
I use Apex EC-7 18" rims and prefer Nitto NT01 tires and I run 275/35/18 front and 305/35/18 rears.
Thanks

What about spacers and wheel widths/offsets?
Appreciate 0
      01-23-2018, 07:30 PM   #56
M3SQRD
Major General
M3SQRD's Avatar
1927
Rep
5,299
Posts

Drives: E92 M3,G20 330ix,F22 240iX,F82
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Mid-Atlantic

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashmostro View Post
Thanks

What about spacers and wheel widths/offsets?
Apex 9.5et22 and 11et44 are a very common setup and 275/305 fit nicely without spacers
Appreciate 1
      01-23-2018, 07:36 PM   #57
M3SQRD
Major General
M3SQRD's Avatar
1927
Rep
5,299
Posts

Drives: E92 M3,G20 330ix,F22 240iX,F82
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Mid-Atlantic

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliboy951 View Post
I agree and I'm sure why there is so much that's not used. I will say that they work extremely well. Here's a videos that shows how I'm able to make up time under braking even against some race cars:

Because the power delivery is so hard coming out of corners is my weakness but high speed and braking is where I'm most comfortable.
I wasn't doubting their performance. I just find it odd they offer a wider annulus rotor yet don't use all of the available surface area. You could work with a brake pad manufacturer that makes custom pads (e.g., Carbotech) to develop a pad that uses the same shape but with a larger radial depth.
Appreciate 1
      01-23-2018, 07:54 PM   #58
Caliboy951
Second Lieutenant
Caliboy951's Avatar
United_States
202
Rep
297
Posts

Drives: 2016 M4
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: So Cal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3SQRD View Post
I wasn't doubting their performance. I just find it odd they offer a wider annulus rotor yet don't use all of the available surface area. You could work with a brake pad manufacturer that makes custom pads (e.g., Carbotech) to develop a pad that uses the same shape but with a larger radial depth.
Good point and I completely agree!
Appreciate 0
      01-23-2018, 08:06 PM   #59
Bruce AaLee
Private First Class
Bruce AaLee's Avatar
United_States
34
Rep
189
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2C
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (3)

Quick update, I ended up buying the Essex/AP Racing kit from Harold at HP Autosport(Thanks for the great deal!) and installed it on Saturday. Some things came up and I didn't get a chance to drive it until yesterday but I bedded the trackpads (Ferodo DSUnos) and dropped it at the dealership for the 1200 mile service. I will be taking it down to COTA this weekend to break in the car and brakes on track. I also run the Apex EC-7 Staggered wheel setup with Nitto NT01s. I'll take some pictures when its all setup for track duty on Thursday or Friday.

I'm planning on writing up some notes on the install and uploading more pictures, but here are a few teasers.
Attached Images
        
Appreciate 3
Pic18303.50
jacobe92617.50
Daddeo30.50
      01-24-2018, 12:23 AM   #60
CAOZKAN
Lieutenant
Italy
98
Rep
468
Posts

Drives: Austin Yellow M4
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Milan/Monza

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee View Post
Quick update, I ended up buying the Essex/AP Racing kit from Harold at HP Autosport(Thanks for the great deal!) and installed it on Saturday. Some things came up and I didn't get a chance to drive it until yesterday but I bedded the trackpads (Ferodo DSUnos) and dropped it at the dealership for the 1200 mile service. I will be taking it down to COTA this weekend to break in the car and brakes on track. I also run the Apex EC-7 Staggered wheel setup with Nitto NT01s. I'll take some pictures when its all setup for track duty on Thursday or Friday.

I'm planning on writing up some notes on the install and uploading more pictures, but here are a few teasers.
Congrats on your purchase, be ready to be amazed by their track performance
Appreciate 0
      01-24-2018, 08:37 AM   #61
jww///95
Lieutenant
67
Rep
444
Posts

Drives: f31xd | f80m3
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: TX

iTrader: (5)

For those running the calipers without dust boots on street cars are you doing more frequent rebuilds? I've always assumed this was a no fly zone for a street car but might be based on where you live too (e.g. No road salt locations)
Appreciate 0
      01-24-2018, 08:48 AM   #62
Bruce AaLee
Private First Class
Bruce AaLee's Avatar
United_States
34
Rep
189
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2C
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jww///95 View Post
For those running the calipers without dust boots on street cars are you doing more frequent rebuilds? I've always assumed this was a no fly zone for a street car but might be based on where you live too (e.g. No road salt locations)
No comment on the essex setup obviously, but my stock calipers on my 2016 M3 dried up after one or two track events and basically crumbled off. Basically, I drove around about a year without them and never noticed anything. As you mention, we don't typically have issues with road salt in TX so that could be the difference.
Appreciate 0
      01-24-2018, 03:14 PM   #63
M3SQRD
Major General
M3SQRD's Avatar
1927
Rep
5,299
Posts

Drives: E92 M3,G20 330ix,F22 240iX,F82
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Mid-Atlantic

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jww///95 View Post
For those running the calipers without dust boots on street cars are you doing more frequent rebuilds? I've always assumed this was a no fly zone for a street car but might be based on where you live too (e.g. No road salt locations)
The primary issue you need to be aware of is pressing dirty pistons back into the caliper. You’ll minimize the chances of causing damage to internal seals if you make sure the exposed piston surfaces are clean when you go to push the pistons back in.
Appreciate 0
      01-31-2018, 10:13 PM   #64
Race82
Second Lieutenant
75
Rep
233
Posts

Drives: M4
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce AaLee View Post
Quick update, I ended up buying the Essex/AP Racing kit from Harold at HP Autosport(Thanks for the great deal!) and installed it on Saturday. Some things came up and I didn't get a chance to drive it until yesterday but I bedded the trackpads (Ferodo DSUnos) and dropped it at the dealership for the 1200 mile service. I will be taking it down to COTA this weekend to break in the car and brakes on track. I also run the Apex EC-7 Staggered wheel setup with Nitto NT01s. I'll take some pictures when its all setup for track duty on Thursday or Friday.

I'm planning on writing up some notes on the install and uploading more pictures, but here are a few teasers.
Looks great! what stud kit are you running there?
Appreciate 0
      01-31-2018, 10:18 PM   #65
Bruce AaLee
Private First Class
Bruce AaLee's Avatar
United_States
34
Rep
189
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2C
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by awbmw View Post
Looks great! what stud kit are you running there?
Thank you.

I bought the stud kit from Apex Racing. They have the best prices I could find for a full set and they matched the best price I could find on ground control camber plates.

https://www.apexraceparts.com/accessories/apex-75mm-m14-bmw-5-lug-hex-head-stud-kit-black.html
Appreciate 0
      02-05-2018, 10:39 PM   #66
SEAT TIME RULES
Major
SEAT TIME RULES's Avatar
1093
Rep
1,261
Posts

Drives: 20 BMW M2C 17 Mazda MX-5 RF
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: "Get Busy Living, or Get busy Dying"

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW M2C  [5.00]
Some advise to anyone on this thread regarding caliper paint discoloration.

It happens. The more advanced driver you are/become along with the type of tracks you run at all will determine the amount of time it takes to discolor the calipers.

BBK's will help pull heat away from the calipers but even using dedicated brake cooling backing plates your going to eventually destroy the paint.

I've run on 2 different BBK kits along with 2 sets of OEM Brembo setups. All on other platforms) They all faded and turned grayish....

Your best bet is black...it will hide the fading longer than any other color but it will also go eventually.

Deal with it.....
__________________
2005-2006 BMWCCA Boston Chapter president
2004 Mazda Rev It Up Finalist
2002-Present HPDE Instructor
My 2020M2C Build: https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1696726
Appreciate 1
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:49 AM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST