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      11-05-2019, 12:16 AM   #23
Bryanh24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uwish View Post
what is the website to buy the insane Crank hub fix?
much better value it seems.
They are on ebay! Just type in insane performance crank hub and it’ll pop up.
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      11-05-2019, 02:07 AM   #24
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They are based in Baltics, Lithuania and they have a lot of experience in vehicle tuning:

https://www.facebook.com/insane.lithuania/

https://www.1nsane.lt/kontaktai

I messaged them and guys came back within 20 minutes, after working hours.
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      11-05-2019, 04:46 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aBMWfan View Post
I think you’re massively overthinking. Very reputable shop installed mine and they regularly do crankhub every week from other brands too. I’m sure they would have noticed something
IWIS engineers spec minimum dimensions, radii,etc for sprockets used in conjunction with their timing chains because they understand the highly dynamic environment their chains operate in. They must be overthinking a timing chain that is driven by a crank spinning at 7,400 rpm while at the same time generating massive centrifugal forces wanting to spin the chain off the sprockets. I'm sure the advancing and retarding of the cams don't EVER cause any changes in chain tension that and I'm sure the localized to acceleration and deceleration of the front of the crank due to the harmonic damper that is sitting 2" away absolutely will never cause the chain to want to move. Timing chains must be a simple static system that won't EVER cause any timing chain movement side to side on the sprocket....

I'm not a keyboard jockey like most here. I've been fixing BMW issues starting with the S52, then S54, and now S55. I'm sure stating that Insane Performance's timing chain sprocket is fine and will make you sleep better since you already have one installed. I'm good with that, but I don't want other people to make uninformed decisions. If people are good with the risk, please proceed to purchase it. It looks like the machining quality is good. It appears they properly plunge grind the front crank seal area to maximize seal life.

Last edited by M3 Muscle; 11-05-2019 at 04:53 AM..
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      11-05-2019, 05:51 AM   #26
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I very much appreciate your posts and level of science behind it. I think it is very important actually to compare hubs side by side as pictures might not tell full story. In some pics I see that IP crank hub has sprocket teeth tapering towards top, in some pics its hard to tell.

They claim that the hub has been running on test car for 50 000 kms and many more on high-powered client cars. But of course proof is in the pudding e.g. if and when first failure manifests itself or someone independent will analyse the part in detail.

They mentioned to me that they are going to look into details of teeth angling in future iterations as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Muscle View Post
IWIS engineers spec minimum dimensions, radii,etc for sprockets used in conjunction with their timing chains because they understand the highly dynamic environment their chains operate in. They must be overthinking a timing chain that is driven by a crank spinning at 7,400 rpm while at the same time generating massive centrifugal forces wanting to spin the chain off the sprockets. I'm sure the advancing and retarding of the cams don't EVER cause any changes in chain tension that and I'm sure the localized to acceleration and deceleration of the front of the crank due to the harmonic damper that is sitting 2" away absolutely will never cause the chain to want to move. Timing chains must be a simple static system that won't EVER cause any timing chain movement side to side on the sprocket....

I'm not a keyboard jockey like most here. I've been fixing BMW issues starting with the S52, then S54, and now S55. I'm sure stating that Insane Performance's timing chain sprocket is fine and will make you sleep better since you already have one installed. I'm good with that, but I don't want other people to make uninformed decisions. If people are good with the risk, please proceed to purchase it. It looks like the machining quality is good. It appears they properly plunge grind the front crank seal area to maximize seal life.
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      11-05-2019, 08:56 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Muscle View Post
IWIS engineers spec minimum dimensions, radii,etc for sprockets used in conjunction with their timing chains because they understand the highly dynamic environment their chains operate in. They must be overthinking a timing chain that is driven by a crank spinning at 7,400 rpm while at the same time generating massive centrifugal forces wanting to spin the chain off the sprockets. I'm sure the advancing and retarding of the cams don't EVER cause any changes in chain tension that and I'm sure the localized to acceleration and deceleration of the front of the crank due to the harmonic damper that is sitting 2" away absolutely will never cause the chain to want to move. Timing chains must be a simple static system that won't EVER cause any timing chain movement side to side on the sprocket....

I'm not a keyboard jockey like most here. I've been fixing BMW issues starting with the S52, then S54, and now S55. I'm sure stating that Insane Performance's timing chain sprocket is fine and will make you sleep better since you already have one installed. I'm good with that, but I don't want other people to make uninformed decisions. If people are good with the risk, please proceed to purchase it. It looks like the machining quality is good. It appears they properly plunge grind the front crank seal area to maximize seal life.
So what is the best solution for the crank hub in your opinion?
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      11-05-2019, 12:55 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanh24 View Post
My buddy can get me a discount on the Insane Perf. hub. After discount difference is about 500 bucks.
Are you in South FL?

I did Insane back in April/May when MPSI was on b/o. I've put hard miles on the car and taken it to the track 7-8 times. Another local guy is running turbos and 750+ with the insane hub, and he tracks his car just as much as me and races way more. Its taken a beating in both cars. You're good.

Also, they sell the Insane hub on bm3tuning.
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      11-05-2019, 04:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennettksu View Post
Are you in South FL?

I did Insane back in April/May when MPSI was on b/o. I've put hard miles on the car and taken it to the track 7-8 times. Another local guy is running turbos and 750+ with the insane hub, and he tracks his car just as much as me and races way more. Its taken a beating in both cars. You're good.

Also, they sell the Insane hub on bm3tuning.
Yep I am in South FL! I went ahead and ordered the Insane hub. Can't wait! Thanks for your input.
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      11-05-2019, 08:55 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
Probably because the VTT hub isn't a real fix
Well, with the only Stock motor S55 in the 9's on the planet runs VTT GC's, and Spline lock, so I'd say there is evidence that it is, actually, a real fix.

In fact, if you have doubts do a few google searches on using pins or splines to transfer TQ -as I have stated before, that's all the crank hub is doing; transferring TQ from the crank to the cams and oil pump.

We keep them in stock and we back them with a no-slip guarantee if installed by us or a certified installer. You cannot go wrong from a performance or price point perspective.

Chris
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      11-05-2019, 09:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
Well, with the only Stock motor S55 in the 9's on the planet runs VTT GC's, and Spline lock, so I'd say there is evidence that it is, actually, a real fix.

In fact, if you have doubts do a few google searches on using pins or splines to transfer TQ -as I have stated before, that's all the crank hub is doing; transferring TQ from the crank to the cams and oil pump.

We keep them in stock and we back them with a no-slip guarantee if installed by us or a certified installer. You cannot go wrong from a performance or price point perspective.

Chris
Have you guys thought about making a spline lock hub with pins? Also possibly making it one piece? Wouldn’t that be the kitchen sink in terms of the SCH issue?
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      11-05-2019, 09:43 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
Probably because the VTT hub isn't a real fix
Care to elaborate?
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      11-05-2019, 09:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
Care to elaborate?
nothing is a true fix to anything...unless you dragging your car pushing 500+hp or running on hydrogen() the crank hub fix is simply nuts because it doesn't occur much. if it does slip and you take it to the shop immediately you'll pay maybe 1k more than the fix.
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      11-05-2019, 10:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by MisterF80M3 View Post
Care to elaborate?
There were several people who had the VTT hub slip, and they blame it on not having the CBC along with the hub.

How many people run the MAX Psi hub without any kind of crank bolt capture? TONS of them, I know of several personally. Thats why I say its not a solution.
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      11-06-2019, 01:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
Probably because the VTT hub isn't a real fix
How do you know this?
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      11-06-2019, 01:57 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evren View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
Probably because the VTT hub isn't a real fix
How do you know this?
The answer of your question is right above your post
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      11-06-2019, 04:46 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by M3anPower View Post
The answer of your question is right above your post
as i understood, no %100 solution for that problem. (specially for over 500 hp stage2 cars)
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      11-06-2019, 05:51 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanh24 View Post
So what is the best solution for the crank hub in your opinion?
The Maximum PSI hub looks solid on sprocket design and locking the timing gear to the hub. There is a slight opportunity to reduce the resistance to cracking due to cyclical fatigue loading in the hub to sprocket interlocks (dogs), but I don't suspect it will ever crack if proper base metal was selected. It looks like there is some surface prep to harden the teeth, but I can't tell what. I suspect it is something simple like shot peening, but with the right base metal, that could be perfectly fine for sprockets. I'd like to see a different locking method to the crank as dowel pins are typically a weaker stainless steel and don't have large shear values. Being that the distance from the center of the crank is small, they won't take a lot of torque to shear off. I don't know how much they need to hold, so they might be 100% perfect for the life of the engine. Vibration torque is something that is near impossible to measure, so I error on the side of more.

As for the Gintani, the one piece is cool, but not needed and adds considerable costs. It looks like they compromised on sprocket shape to allow machining to be done as one piece. Based on the black color, I'm guessing they are doing a nitride salt bath coating (also called a QPQ). This help get some extra hardness in the sprockets for wear, but the process only adds a hardness to a depth of ~.001". For comparison, the stock sprockets are induction hardened. I haven't cut them open to inspect the case hardening depth, but I suspect it is ~.005"+. I like the concept of how they are locking the hub into the crank, but I'd like to see a lock on on each side (0* and 180*). I like this method because you should be able to leave the radiator on the car during the swap thus saving money on labor, but I haven't seen their instructions. It also allows for a higher yield steel to be used to increase the shear value.

On the Vargas hub, the concept is interesting, but I've seen lots of interference fits like this fail on other applications with cyclical loading. The splines are inside the crank which is the area with the smallest radius, thus their load will be greater that if placed on the OD of the crank (I understand this isn't realistic due to the shape of the crank nose). Their use of a 17-4 precipitate hardened stainless steel throws me for a loop, but I have to assume they are using it for the toughness to resist cracking in the high stress geometry of the spline lock area. 17-4 PH SS is not terribly hard and does not wear well when compared to a heat treated medium carbon steel. I work with a lot of industrial applications that have moving parts and the 17-4 is always the first to wear. We have tried different heat treatments all the way down to H900 as well as some custom treatments and the 17-4 always wears before standard carbon steels. I think over time, the chain will wear down the sprocket (probably never become catastrophic). If someone has this and does oil analysis, it would be interesting to see if it shows any increased nickel from the 17-4 PH to confirm to deny this. It might be 100% fine, but I'd have to pass due to both the 17-4 PH base metal and the spline lock method.

The Insane Performance hub has sub par sprocket geometry. It doesn't have any surface hardening for the sprocket. It uses an odd grade of Russian steel (odd based on what we use in the US) from what they have released. As best I can tell, it correlates to a 5140 steel. Again, with what we have access to in the US, it just seems odd.

These are just my engineering opinions combined with 25+ years of turning wrenches and 15 years working in an industry that sees a lot of bad designs and failures. Do your own homework and make the decision you feel good with. To your original question, I were to buy one today, I'd wait until Maximum PSI had more back in stock. If I were wanting a no compromise solution, I'd wait as I'm sure there will be more on the market soon.

Last edited by M3 Muscle; 11-06-2019 at 06:01 AM..
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      11-06-2019, 08:05 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryanh24 View Post
Yep I am in South FL! I went ahead and ordered the Insane hub. Can't wait! Thanks for your input.
I think I know where you got yours from

Are you in the s55 WhatsApp chat?
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      11-06-2019, 08:52 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chetrickerman View Post
There were several people who had the VTT hub slip, and they blame it on not having the CBC along with the hub.

How many people run the MAX Psi hub without any kind of crank bolt capture? TONS of them, I know of several personally. Thats why I say its not a solution.
We have had multiple people contact us with failed pinned solutions they wanted to replace with a proper splined solution. Just because nothing makes itself public do not fool yourself into believing they are not failing, they are. Pins will literally do nothing if the bolt backs out. The Tq will shear those pins like breaking a toothpick. Again google "splines Vs pins" and do some reading. We heard of two people having issues on V1 spline locks due to hardness issue, all that was fixed with V2, no one is offering a no-slip guarantee except us. Not only is it a real fix, but it's also by far the best fix on the market. Bar none.
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      11-06-2019, 09:01 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Muscle View Post
On the Vargas hub, the concept is interesting, but I've seen lots of interference fits like this fail on other applications with cyclical loading. The splines are inside the crank which is the area with the smallest radius, thus their load will be greater that if placed on the OD of the crank (I understand this isn't realistic due to the shape of the crank nose). Their use of a 17-4 precipitate hardened stainless steel throws me for a loop, but I have to assume they are using it for the toughness to resist cracking in the high stress geometry of the spline lock area. 17-4 PH SS is not terribly hard and does not wear well when compared to a heat treated medium carbon steel. I work with a lot of industrial applications that have moving parts and the 17-4 is always the first to wear. We have tried different heat treatments all the way down to H900 as well as some custom treatments and the 17-4 always wears before standard carbon steels. I think over time, the chain will wear down the sprocket (probably never become catastrophic). If someone has this and does oil analysis, it would be interesting to see if it shows any increased nickel from the 17-4 PH to confirm to deny this. It might be 100% fine, but I'd have to pass due to both the 17-4 PH base metal and the spline lock method.
Thank you for a very informative post, the only issue I see if you are using outdated information. The first batch of V1's were hardened 17-4SS, after that all hubs we have sold and shipped for over a year manufactured from 440C tool Steel with a Rockwell rating of HRC60 for the ultimate in durability, and toughness. We are the only company that actually stands behind our hubs not slipping if installed correctly. We have offered a bench test for other hubs, put a pinned set up, and a properly installed splined set up to the test on a rig to see which takes more Tq to slip. No takers, you sound like you understand the theory behind these things, so you can most likely understand why. I mean that shaft coming out of our transmissions that is transferring 100% of the TQ/Power to the rear wheels, did they pin it, or is it relying on splines? We both know the answer to this...
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      11-06-2019, 09:37 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbennettksu View Post
I think I know where you got yours from

Are you in the s55 WhatsApp chat?
LMAO yep! I was the one that was added a couple of days ago and was asking about the insane hub.
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      11-06-2019, 09:48 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Chris@VargasTurboTech View Post
Thank you for a very informative post, the only issue I see if you are using outdated information. The first batch of V1's were hardened 17-4SS, after that all hubs we have sold and shipped for over a year manufactured from 440C tool Steel with a Rockwell rating of HRC60 for the ultimate in durability, and toughness. We are the only company that actually stands behind our hubs not slipping if installed correctly. We have offered a bench test for other hubs, put a pinned set up, and a properly installed splined set up to the test on a rig to see which takes more Tq to slip. No takers, you sound like you understand the theory behind these things, so you can most likely understand why. I mean that shaft coming out of our transmissions that is transferring 100% of the TQ/Power to the rear wheels, did they pin it, or is it relying on splines? We both know the answer to this...
The difference being the transmission shaft has large receiver grooves machined into the hub for a perfect fit. The splines are not pressed in.
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      11-06-2019, 10:22 AM   #44
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LMAO yep! I was the one that was added a couple of days ago and was asking about the insane hub.
I just left, it was so much to keep up with lol. Good guys in there.
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