CCBs on Track - Feedback Collection

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by racingbrake

They are not interchangeable, both hub opening and offset are different.

We have just released the CCB direct replacement iron rotor kit. Not only they are made for a direct bolt on installation but the size is reduced to 390mm (390x36) for more wheel clearance to preserve your wheels from damage due to tight caliper clearance. (optional 400x36mm is available upon request)

Click here and see option #3 for details.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...67&postcount=1

Racingbrake offers more iron conversion than any competition.

Aston Martin
BMW
Chevy (ZR1, Z28)
Ferrari F458, F430
Lamboghini/Audi Gallardo/R8
Mercedes S, GT S
Porsche 997TT / 991 GT3
GT-R (Iron to CCM)

See our complete CCM brake offer:
http://www.racingbrake.com/Carbon-Ce...kes-s/7196.htm

Agreed. This is a rather old post. It was later confirmed that they do not fit.

[dawgdog]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

Well it looks like after a fair bit of research I will become a member of the CCB club when my M4GTS arrives in the spring.It does appear that if can keep the rotors in the temp range where the oxidation is minimized and you do keep the pads at 50% or above you can get a good bit of life out of the rotors.I tracked a friends 997 GT3RS a few times that had the ceramics and after 3 years of life the rotors were still well serviceable and the pads were changed out at 50% with no issues.I did pound his brakes quite hard on slicks and they where awesome!As he said to me it is time to embrace technology and move along with the times so I guess I will
With the ability of having the rotors refinished & using the Pagid RSC(when available)pads I am not so apprehensive about going this direction.

http://www.carbonceramicbrake.com/re...t-service.html

I have two friends that tracked their GT3RS with ceramics and they both ended up replacing with steel in less than 2 seasons. Uneven pad wear was an issue as well as it was difficult to ascertain when you were at 50%. Another with a 2015 Audi R8 replaced his ceramics after one season. This is a concern of mine concerning the GTS. I guess I plan on tracking it sparingly so this may not be such a big issue.

[MTW1989]

how are you getting on with rotor wear so far?

I have just changed front pads after 4 track days and 15k total miles and have noticed indicated wear from the indicator spots on the front rotors, going by the spots probably 60-70% worn rotors on the front, both rear rotors and pads are still fine













what are yours looking like? im a little alarmed at how fast they seem to have worn!

waiting to hear back from SICOM for a price for refurbishment

[Mark's M]

Originally Posted by Teo28

Yep, all good! I guess the only problem with CCB so far is the brake fluid

I agree. Was at my local track (Mosport aka CTMP) this week finally and for a very, very brief moment on only 1 lap, I felt a a tiny bit of squishiness in the brakes. Picking up the pace and less on the brakes cleared it up lol and no problems over my 4 sessions + 1 auto X event. Very impressed with the stock pad performance with these brakes, love them compared to the stock set up followed by Brembo BBK that I had on my E92 5 yrs ago.

I did notice a different look to the front rotors at the end of the day...they'd lost their crackly sheen look and were dulled, looking much more like a steel rotor than CCB. 150 km's later when I pulled into my driveway, they were back to normal. Must have been a day's worth of pad deposit???

FTS...if you're still following your post, thanks for getting it going. Very informative!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by MTW1989

how are you getting on with rotor wear so far?

I have just changed front pads after 4 track days and 15k total miles and have noticed indicated wear from the indicator spots on the front rotors, going by the spots probably 60-70% worn rotors on the front, both rear rotors and pads are still fine













what are yours looking like? im a little alarmed at how fast they seem to have worn!

waiting to hear back from SICOM for a price for refurbishment

Any feedback on those rotors?

Did you get them weighed?

According to the wear marks, they seem very close to be needing replacement...

[Dumpspec]

bump. any new updates?

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Mark's M

I agree. Was at my local track (Mosport aka CTMP) this week finally and for a very, very brief moment on only 1 lap, I felt a a tiny bit of squishiness in the brakes. Picking up the pace and less on the brakes cleared it up lol and no problems over my 4 sessions + 1 auto X event. Very impressed with the stock pad performance with these brakes, love them compared to the stock set up followed by Brembo BBK that I had on my E92 5 yrs ago.

I did notice a different look to the front rotors at the end of the day...they'd lost their crackly sheen look and were dulled, looking much more like a steel rotor than CCB. 150 km's later when I pulled into my driveway, they were back to normal. Must have been a day's worth of pad deposit???

FTS...if you're still following your post, thanks for getting it going. Very informative!

Mosport is not a great place to judge brake performance as there is only one real braking event with only 4 other moderate applications during a lap.I can and have run street pads there many times with no great issues on both my E92 M3's and my F82 M4.WGI,Mt Tremblant and Calabogie are much better tests for a track brake package.

[evanevery]

{Sorry - Duplicate Post}

[evanevery]

All it took was 4 track days (at Autobahn) to use up my front CCB Pads. (Burned through the wear sensor). So that's $600 to replace the front pads for 4 track days. I've also been told that its not necessary to upgrade the brake fluid if you are running the BMW CCB option...

Some of this could be my driving style. I'm braking pretty hard coming into the turns and I'm pretty sure I'm pushing the CCB's accordingly. They brake extremely hard, linearly, predictably, and simply don't fade. I've also run BMW Driving School M4's with CCB's at Road Atlanta and VIR and BMW German Driving School M4's on the Nurburgring with steel rotors and comp pads. (The US School runs CCB's while the Euro Schools run Steel). I can tell you that no steel brake setup is going to perform as well...

Braking is so good that when learning the line at Autobahn with an instructor, he was pretty confused when he told me to brake hard and I just looked at him (and then braked). I'm certainly not triggering ABS or anything but you really can run in much longer and deeper...

If you want to try them just schedule an M-School at the PDC. I believe all their cars have them.

They also run very hot if you use them. The TPMS sensors on my front wheels were showing about 240 F at my last event. So that would be the temp of the air/barrel of the wheel (not the rubber and certainly not the rotors). I believe much of this is heat thrown off by the CCB rotors. (It may have even melted one of my wheel weights!) The ambient was NOT that hot either (Maybe 80-85F). I have a laser thermometer (non-contact) to bring down to the next event so I can check tire, rotor, and wheel temps a little more closely.

However... They may be setting themselves up to be expensive. $600 for pads every 4 track days will not be as bad as rotor replacement when it becomes necessary. ($3000 street price for each front rotor). The rear rotors and pads will last much longer I expect - so its gonna be the fronts that will cost.

I have 5 total track days on the Rotors. (3500 miles total on my car so its all basically track wear). The wear indicators are starting to worry me. I'll probably have to have them weighed after the next day or two of track use...

On the up side, there is a vendor who sells a steel rotor replacement kit specifically for CCB equipped cars. So, if they end up being too costly (whatever that threshold is for you) then you can swap out the ceramic rotors for a steel set and not have to change anything else (except maybe the pads): http://www.racingbrake.com/RB-Iron-T...bmw-irk-11.htm

Do I like them? Hell yes!

Are they expensive to run? Possibly...

Do I regret the purchase? No way!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by evanevery

I can tell you that no steel brake setup is going to perform as well...

That sounds very subjective and would like to see empirical evidence of this.

My stock irons with Pagids RS29 can sustain continuous laps (I did some 1 hour non-stop back-to-back sessions) with repeated stops over 1g (according to datalogs) without any fade. This is pretty much the limit of the tires. I fail to see how the CCB can perform any better...

[SYT_Shadow]

That sounds ridiculous. CCBs do not 'brake better' than regular brakes as long as the regular ones do not overheat. It is quite simple to get iron brakes to not overheat, basically you need track pads

I drove CCB cars at a M Track day. As expected, I noticed no difference with or without CCB

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

That sounds ridiculous. CCBs do not 'brake better' than regular brakes as long as the regular ones do not overheat. It is quite simple to get iron brakes to not overheat, basically you need track pads

I drove CCB cars at a M Track day. As expected, I noticed no difference with or without CCB

Yeah... OK... That's why all the F1 teams are using CCB's... Because they are no better than steel and much more expensive!

CCB's ***DO*** perform better than steel. That's a fact. Its just a matter of whether the an individual's operating profile will make use of the benefits and/or can justify the additional cost...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Yeah... OK... That's why all the F1 teams are using CCB's... Because they are no better than steel and much more expensive!

CCB's ***DO*** perform better than steel. That's a fact. Its just a matter of whether the an individual's operating profile will make use of the benefits and/or can justify the additional cost...

I'll try explaining it to you although it may be pointless

One thing does not have a relation to another.
I hope you know that F1 team CCBs bear no relation to the CCB kit BMW uses on the Ms.

Unless your iron brakes are fading on the track, the only performance advantage of a CCB kit is weight.
Any iron BBK that does not fade with track use, and believe me there are many, would see no advantage by switching to CCB.

When you brake, the limit is the amount of traction your tires have. A brake system is able to exert many times the force necessary to block your front tires.
So, upon first application of the brakes, there is zero difference between CCB, BBK and OEM sliding caliper brakes like what the E92 had.
Zero.
As you continue using the brakes, you can exceed the temperature threshold of the pads, then eventually the calipers and fluid. This is when you can start to notice a difference between the braking performance of a E92, F80 iron and F80 CCB.

The thing is, an F80 with a BBK will never fade if you use track pads. So, as braking performance is not diminished, there is no advantage of the CCB brakes.
If you are able to drive at sufficient speed to fade track pads you are driving faster than anyone else has driven an F80, which would be impressive.

Please post a video of you at WGI doing 1:40 and I'll believe you can fade track pads on the steel brakes

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I'll try explaining it to you although it may be pointless

I expect you are correct.

[Gearhead999s]

Interesting!


http://surfacetransforms.com/white-p...ramic-material

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Yeah... OK... That's why all the F1 teams are using CCB's... Because they are no better than steel and much more expensive.

F1 and other racing applications use Carbon/Carbon brakes, which have nothing to do with CCB found on street cars.

Originally Posted by evanevery

CCB's ***DO*** perform better than steel.

Quite possible, I don't know much about steel rotors. Brake rotors are usuall made of iron (grey cast iron), not steel...

Originally Posted by evanevery

That's a fact. Its just a matter of whether the an individual's operating profile will make use of the benefits and/or can justify the additional cost...

Assuming you meant iron rotors, could you please reference independent sources (not CCB promotional material), preferably accompanied by empirical evidence, of that "fact". Not just subjective impressions. Because so far, I have not seen objective evidence of this superior braking performance.

[AM4ZING]

CCB definitely bite harder and stop harder than stock brakes... ESPECIALLY under extreme conditions like spirited driving and HEAVY deceleration

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

CCB definitely bite harder and stop harder than stock brakes... ESPECIALLY under extreme conditions like spirited driving and HEAVY deceleration

That is absolutely false. Please think of this in terms of physics. The stock brakes of any car will easily overwhelm their tires, so both iron and ceramics 'brake' exactly as hard. They are both able to easily make ABS act.

This also means that the unimpressive stock brakes of the E92 brake exactly as much as a 10k BBK. Exactly the same. If someone says they 'feel' the bbk braking harder they are lying

The difference between stock brakes and a 10k bbk is seen under track use. 'Spirited driving' does not qualify as track use

This is worse than the torque vs power discussion

[AM4ZING]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

That is absolutely false. Please think of this in terms of physics. The stock brakes of any car will easily overwhelm their tires, so both iron and ceramics 'brake' exactly as hard. They are both able to easily make ABS act.

This also means that the unimpressive stock brakes of the E92 brake exactly as much as a 10k BBK. Exactly the same. If someone says they 'feel' the bbk braking harder they are lying

The difference between stock brakes and a 10k bbk is seen under track use. 'Spirited driving' does not qualify as track use

This is worse than the torque vs power discussion

Eveyones driving is different.. Guess you dont drive hard enough to notice the difference... thats all on you

While stock brakes reach their temperature threshold, the CCB will then enter operating temperatures and will absolutely destroy performance of stocks

[AM4ZING]

http://www.brembo.com/en/car/original-equipment

According to some of you guys, Brembo wastes all their time with Research and Development on Carbon Ceramic Brakes since they're no different than any other lol bunch of trolls

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

While stock brakes reach their temperature threshold, the CCB will then enter operating temperatures and will absolutely destroy performance of stocks

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

http://www.brembo.com/en/car/original-equipment

According to some of you guys, Brembo wastes all their time with Research and Development on Carbon Ceramic Brakes since they're no different than any other lol bunch of trolls

This is correct. With stock pads, the CCB will outperform the iron rotors in fade performance.

However, put proper track pads on the irons and the fade resistance will be very close.

Don't confuse "feel" and actual performance. We've had that discussion a few times in the past. So far, there is no empirical data that shows CCB to outperform irons with track pads. CCB offer many benefits, however shorter braking distances is not one of them.

Have you finally taken you car to the track? If not, guess who's trolling...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by AM4ZING

Eveyones driving is different.. Guess you dont drive hard enough to notice the difference... thats all on you

While stock brakes reach their temperature threshold, the CCB will then enter operating temperatures and will absolutely destroy performance of stocks

It is very unlikely you are able to exceed the temperature threshold of the stock iron brakes on the street. Exceptionally unlikely.

This makes your comment of 'much better in spirited driving' false

At the track, with track pads on the iron brakes you will also be unable to fade them. Master C17 tracked with 600hp with track pads and iron brakes and he never faded them.

My car spends 30 days a year at the track. It is likely it is driven significantly harder than yours.
The brakes do not fade, not even a hint of fade, regardless of how fast I'm going or how sticky the tires are.