CCBs on Track - Feedback Collection

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

I wouldn't worry about the look of the pad from the side, they are mostly just paint the got burnt and are in the process of flaking off. If you are motivated, you can remove the pad and see how does the contact surface held up. If they are starting to crumple or having the corners and edges chunking off, it means they are probably not up to the task then.

Curious as to how the caliper held up at such high temp. Are the dust boots, if there is any external boot on this car, are still intact? How about the brake pistons?

Before the next event at WGI I will remove the calipers, at that time I'll inspect them certainly. The calipers are specifically designed for handling the heat, if I am not mistaken, they can handle temps up to 1,400 degF without measurable expansion or deformation, same with pistons; however, I don't have specific confirmation that the Brembo calipers used on the Ms meet that spec.

Regardless, I believe the calipers are the real value of the CCB system, rather than rotors, hopefully that will prove to be true over time. I still do intend to rebuild the calipers on a annual basis to minimize pistons seizure risk

If you mean the dust shields, there are from factory, and I am told they are actually designed for optimum air flow, I am not sure how, but I did not take them off.

[MatthewDavid]

Subscribed!!

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by FTS

Before the next event at WGI I will remove the calipers, at that time I'll inspect them certainly. The calipers are specifically designed for handling the heat, if I am not mistaken, they can handle temps up to 1,400 degF without measurable expansion or deformation, same with pistons; however, I don't have specific confirmation that the Brembo calipers used on the Ms meet that spec.

Regardless, I believe the calipers are the real value of the CCB system, rather than rotors, hopefully that will prove to be true over time. I still do intend to rebuild the calipers on a annual basis to minimize pistons seizure risk

If you mean the dust shields, there are from factory, and I am told they are actually designed for optimum air flow, I am not sure how, but I did not take them off.

Calipers themselves will handle the high temp, I am sure. Or else it will pose as a major safety issue.

I was specifically talking about the rubber/silicone dust boot that surround the pistons. Not the metal heat shield that sits behind the brake rotor. See image below (the black ring surround the metal piston body):


Some of the newer designs have internal dust boost, which is further away from the scorching hot pads. But most of the OE calipers have one just like the Porsche calipers I show above, which could get melted/cracked at track environment.

Not a huge issue, most track goers do even bother replacing it, since it is just a dust cover and the actual piston seal is buried within the caliper. But for a DD car, it would be nice to have them in tact.

I am just curious to get more information on the CCB system. If the calipers are well thought out, it might just worth the money, given that Performance Friction or Stoptech will make a steel replacement rotors for track use by the time I switch to this platform. Proper 6 pot with massive brake pads and 400mm rotors are nice to have to have after all.

[SakhirM4]

How does this thread dovetail with the thread about the CCB design flaw?

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1107233

[FTS]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

How does this thread dovetail with the thread about the CCB design flaw?

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1107233

Good question, I am not sure frankly. I have been monitoring that thread too, I certainly can see how it happens and just feel lucky it hasn't happened to me yet. My track wheels have significantly more clearance to the calipers so it is not a worry at the track, and I guess if something like that happens to my street wheels warranty should cover it I assume.

[FTS]

One other item I forgot to mention: I did not bed-in the pads at all before the track event, and all was fine, maybe these don't need bedding-in

[FTS]

This is worth the read; Carol Smith on brake fluids (thanks to HP Autosport): http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590914

[FTS]

PCCB Feedback, worth the read, things seem to be changing in the Porsche world contrary to popular belief on these boards:

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/8...ck-thread.html

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by FTS

PCCB Feedback, worth the read, things seem to be changing in the Porsche world contrary to popular belief on these boards:

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3/8...ck-thread.html

good read. seems reassuring. hopefully BMW's rotors have the same tech as the latest from Porsche

[FTS]

I just received confirmation that the OEM pads are Pagids, but not the race compound (RSC). The rear RSC are available, but not the fronts, it will be another 4 to 6 months before the fronts show up in the US So, I'll be changing pads more frequently than planned until those show up.

[CSBM5]

Came across this link to an F80 owner's experience with disc issues requiring replacement: http://nceuro.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18683

[FTS]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Came across this link to an F80 owner's experience with disc issues requiring replacement: http://nceuro.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18683

That's Janis, he used to post here, but I don't see his posts any more. He is using iron rotors, not CCBs.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by FTS

That's Janis, he used to post here, but I don't see his posts any more. He is using iron rotors, not CCBs.

Whoops, sorry 'bout that! For some reason I thought he was referring to CCBs. Apparently he has sold the F80 already btw (according the signature line in nceuro.org). Given those were iron rotors, I'd wager a good deal that his issue was exceeding the MOT of the factory pads and smearing pad material all over them. I did note he was using race pads the next time out and wondered how those pads could be used with the CCBs -- given that thought, you'd think I would have put two and two together? Apparently not.

Regards,
Chuck

[FTS]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Whoops, sorry 'bout that!

It is no worry at all Chuck I appreciate you even thinking of this thread helping us collect data and sharing your valuable experience, thank you!

[FTS]

Good news: Endless has the pads W0007 compound for track and W0008 compound for the street, available at the end of May, 6-week lead time due to special order though.

EDIT: Endless just figured out they actually do not have the right size pads, so ignore the above message please.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

I am just curious to get more information on the CCB system. If the calipers are well thought out, it might just worth the money, given that Performance Friction or Stoptech will make a steel replacement rotors for track use by the time I switch to this platform. Proper 6 pot with massive brake pads and 400mm rotors are nice to have to have after all.

The CCB calipers with PFC DD style rotors would be a dream come true.

I could not believe how those rotors held up to serious track use with the subpar E46M braking system.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

I am just curious to get more information on the CCB system. If the calipers are well thought out, it might just worth the money, given that Performance Friction or Stoptech will make a steel replacement rotors for track use by the time I switch to this platform. Proper 6 pot with massive brake pads and 400mm rotors are nice to have to have after all.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The CCB calipers with PFC DD style rotors would be a dream come true.

There are many 400 and 380mm two-piece iron rotors out there already, their hats are not suitable yet, which can be overcome by just machining proper mounting holes, so not a big deal I think.

The better solution maybe just using BMW rotors, F10 M5's rears in the front and F8x fronts in the rears, you won't even loose warranty Those rotors are 2 mm thinner, I'd just put 2 mm titanium back plates behind the pads to preserve pedal travel.

Although many bulk at the initial cost of CCBs, I think the calipers are worth it alone IMHO. Replacement costs are no worse than standard irons if you choose to use iron replacements. So for me, instead of paying for an exhaust, cosmetics, or aftermarket BBK loosing warranty, etc. the CCBs make a lot more sense to me. And God forbid if all the marketing turns out to be close to the truth, where the CCB rotors do last 2 or 3x time longer and provide better performance on the track, going back to irons would be a huge let down

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by FTS

There are many 400 and 380mm two-piece iron rotors out there already, their hats are not suitable yet, which can be overcome by just machining proper mounting holes, so not a big deal I think.

The better solution maybe just using BMW rotors, F10 M5's rears in the front and F8x fronts in the rears, you won't even loose warranty Those rotors are 2 mm thinner, I'd just put 2 mm titanium back plates behind the pads to preserve pedal travel.

Although many bulk at the initial cost of CCBs, I think the calipers are worth it alone IMHO. Replacement costs are no worse than standard irons if you choose to use iron replacements. So for me, instead of paying for an exhaust, cosmetics, or aftermarket BBK loosing warranty, etc. the CCBs make a lot more sense to me. And God forbid if all the marketing turns out to be close to the truth, where the CCB rotors do last 2 or 3x time longer and provide better performance on the track, going back to irons would be a huge let down

There may be rotors, but OEM rotors serve for little at the track. You can easily break an OEM CSL rotor in two track weekends (ask me why I know), so the CCB lasting 2x or 3x than OEM steel ones is not saying much. A quality aftermarket rotor lasts 5x more quite easily
If a good aftermarket company makes a steel rotor this becomes very interesting, at least to me, although one has to wonder whether the 8k would not be better off being spent on a PFC Z54/Z45 BBK or a Brembo equivalent. If $400k Bimmerworld racecars use those exact calipers I'd be surprised if the CCB ones were better.

However, if the CCBs are 'good enough' and someone builds good rotors, they will be a very solid package and it's blessed by BMW which is always good. 8k is not an insane amount of money for street rotors which will last forever and a very sexy brake package. Just the no dust is worth several k to me...

Keep up the good work with the documentation! You're doing a great service!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by FTS

I think the calipers are worth it alone IMHO. Replacement costs are no worse than standard irons if you choose to use iron replacements.

But the resulting increase in unsprung mass would be quite significant. Bigger and heavier calipers plus huge and heavy iron discs. For sure the braking capability would be superior, but if the base irons are sufficient, why pay the penalty of the extra mass?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

But the resulting increase in unsprung mass would be quite significant. Bigger and heavier calipers plus huge and heavy iron discs. For sure the braking capability would be superior, but if the base irons are sufficient, why pay the penalty of the extra mass?

but are they?

In the last Roundel mag I read, TCKline commented that the stock F8X brakes were essentially garbage and he preferred -wait for it- the brakes of the E9x.
A surprising comment from a current F8X owner who has no reason to hate on the car.

Up to that moment I was convinced they were better. They sure look better, but so did the garbage that AMG put in the C63 and RS put in the RS4/RS5. Still, I'd be surprised if BMW had done that.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

but are they?

In the last Roundel mag I read, TCKline commented that the stock F8X brakes were essentially garbage and he preferred -wait for it- the brakes of the E9x.
A surprising comment from a current F8X owner who has no reason to hate on the car.

Up to that moment I was convinced they were better. They sure look better, but so did the garbage that AMG put in the C63 and RS put in the RS4/RS5. Still, I'd be surprised if BMW had done that.

Did he run them with stock pads?

No street pad will be sufficient to deal with the heat of track use.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Did he run them with stock pads?

No street pad will be sufficient to deal with the heat of track use.

I don't know, but this is TCKline we're talking about, not some random newbie.

The guy was chasing down GTRs, etc. The article was about the TCKline suspension for the F8X which he is developing.