Introducing the First Ever BMW M4 CS!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Artemis

BMW seems to underestimate the undercurrent of MT demand in high performance cars by potential customers, as well as more generally MT popularity among a relevant part of its fanbase.

I think BMW understands the market demand quite well: the majority of people shopping for a vehicle with a manual transmission in the ~$100k range want the entire sports car experience so those people are turning toward Porsche.

No doubt that BMW has the data to show that a car like the M4 CS - as good as it will be in the role of the pinnacle M4 - is not going to appeal to a significant number of those folks even if a manual transmission were on offer. They know the reasons why people shopping in this price range seek out the manual transmission, and they know that those same reasons also cause those people to seek out other traits in a car that a modern BMW - even one like an M4 CS - does not provide.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Crossing my fingers that the an MT will be available for the forthcoming M2 CS.

I actually wonder if the M2 CS will be MT only - just from the perspective of where BMW has positioned the car in the overall pecking order of the M car lineup, you wouldn't want the little brother having better performance figures than the M4 CS.

Just like Porsche did with the GT4....neutering exercise for sure, but one that was overwhelmingly accepted as positive because of the MT-only configuration, which helped pave the way for the 991.2 MT GT3.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

My hunch is BMW knows they'll sell every CS they can make even when only offering 1 transmission and 2 colors. It would be a bad business decision to increase cost of production by adding more varieties.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

My hunch is BMW knows they'll sell every CS they can make even when only offering 1 transmission and 5 colors. It would be a bad business decision to increase cost of production by adding more varieties.

Fixed that for you

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by Artemis

From an interview with BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel

as long as there’s a strong demand for manual gearboxes, we will try and have them available in our cars.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I think BMW understands the market demand quite well: the majority of people shopping for a vehicle with a manual transmission in the ~$100k range want the entire sports car experience so those people are turning toward Porsche.

this is key. I don't think we can use a broad-market generic principle like "M4 buyers broadly want DCTs" and apply it to a niche car like the CS. When you sub-segment an offering you have to re-open the rule book as the broad market demand structure and economics no longer apply.

For example, sure the M4 might make most sense as DCT for its broad market, but a M4CS sub-segment might make most sense as an MT. The very purpose of the sub-segment is to provide a higher margin version of the standard for those nutburgers willing to pay more ... which is where ///M came from in the first place.

I have no idea if the M4CS sub segment MT take rate would be 10% or 50% if it were offered, but clearly BMW has a hypothesis.

[YasM4]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The (global) market has spoken.

Unfortunately as an enthusiast, I am no longer important to BMW.

Thanks for the great years BMW, I really enjoyed my past M's including my current manual Yas M4 but its time for me to move on.. (see link below)

http://www.carscoops.com/2017/04/por...esnt-care.html

[YasM4]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

this is key. I don't think we can use a broad-market generic principle like "M4 buyers broadly want DCTs" and apply it to a niche car like the CS. When you sub-segment an offering you have to re-open the rule book as the broad market demand structure and economics no longer apply.

For example, sure the M4 might make most sense as DCT for its broad market, but a M4CS sub-segment might make most sense as an MT. The very purpose of the sub-segment is to provide a higher margin version of the standard for those nutburgers willing to pay more ... which is where ///M came from in the first place.

I have no idea if the M4CS sub segment MT take rate would be 10% or 50% if it were offered, but clearly BMW has a hypothesis.

I agree with you 100% Gruss and I think the Porsche brass validates your statement. See link below..

http://www.carscoops.com/2017/04/por...esnt-care.html

Unfortunately, what boggles my mind is that the CS is clearly not a ground up approach to performance where budget, schedule and regulations definitely affect what you can sell. If this were the case I totally understand why they would have to make a choice. But this is not the case. This is a project that was pieced together using the ZCP as a base. They could have even offered the manual as an extra cost option.

Very disappointing.

[Foxyy]

I just read that due to production period and capacity limitations, BMW calculates with about 3.000 produced cars in total, meaning there is just a soft limitation for the M4 CS, different then GTS, DTM Edition etc.
They name no specific source of information, but say it's reliable.

http://www.bimmertoday.de/2017/04/21...k-deutschland/

[MN2///M]

Originally Posted by YasM4

Unfortunately as an enthusiast, I am no longer important to BMW.

Thanks for the great years BMW, I really enjoyed my past M's including my current manual Yas M4 but its time for me to move on.. (see link below)

http://www.carscoops.com/2017/04/por...esnt-care.html

Yas,
You are fooling yourself if you think you were ever important to BMW as an enthusiast. If the enthusiast was truly important to BMW or any other manufacturer for that matter, we'd be able to fully customize nearly every aspect of our cars. The technology is there. Hell, BMW even brags about how they can produce nearly any variant on their production lines. They don't, because they don't have to, which makes them just not care.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by MN2///M

Yas,
You are fooling yourself if you think you were ever important to BMW as an enthusiast. If the enthusiast was truly important to BMW or any other manufacturer for that matter, we'd be able to fully customize nearly every aspect of our cars. The technology is there. Hell, BMW even brags about how they can produce nearly any variant on their production lines. They don't, because they don't have to, which makes them just not care.

I think that's overly harsh; BMW will do what's profitable to do, not what's possible to do.

Customization vs configuration, and level of available configuration, especially when you're dealing with global markets that all have their own levels of configuration, isn't a simple no-cost thing.

[Draper]

Originally Posted by YasM4

Unfortunately as an enthusiast, I am no longer important to BMW.

Thanks for the great years BMW, I really enjoyed my past M's including my current manual Yas M4 but its time for me to move on.. (see link below)

http://www.carscoops.com/2017/04/por...esnt-care.html

It makes for good PR, but the fact that Porsche offers a manual in what is effectively their second fastest car doesn't mean much.

The chances of the next RS getting a manual are next to 0.

[MN2///M]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I think that's overly harsh; BMW will do what's profitable to do, not what's possible to do.

Customization vs configuration, and level of available configuration, especially when you're dealing with global markets that all have their own levels of configuration, isn't a simple no-cost thing.

I wasn't meaning to be harsh, but as you said, it is about profitability, not really what we want to a large extent. If BMW is already offering a particular item in a particular series, then the only real cost savings is that gained by economy of scale.

I think the 666 vs 437 wheel on the CP car is a good example....there is no reason that BMW could not have offered that as a no cost option when the car was first released as they do now. I don't think it is any more expensive for BMW to put a MT into a car if a customer wants it; some likely would even pay more for it.

[Brake_Late]

Originally Posted by Sean@PSI

Very Nice!

We need a 5 door CS Long version )

[YasM4]

Originally Posted by Draper

It makes for good PR, but the fact that Porsche offers a manual in what is effectively their second fastest car doesn't mean much.

The chances of the next RS getting a manual are next to 0.

Im not referring to speed. I could care less. Its involvement and enjoyment. Thats what they are realizing from the backlash with regard to the 991.1 GT3.

If it was simply about speed you could get a camaro or vette.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

this is key. I don't think we can use a broad-market generic principle like "M4 buyers broadly want DCTs" and apply it to a niche car like the CS. When you sub-segment an offering you have to re-open the rule book as the broad market demand structure and economics no longer apply.
For example, sure the M4 might make most sense as DCT for its broad market, but a M4CS sub-segment might make most sense as an MT. The very purpose of the sub-segment is to provide a higher margin version of the standard for those nutburgers willing to pay more ... which is where ///M came from in the first place.
I have no idea if the M4CS sub segment MT take rate would be 10% or 50% if it were offered, but clearly BMW has a hypothesis.

Weight difference between 6MT M4 and M-DCT M4 is approx. 40 kg (88 lb). 6MT on a CS model = lower weight.

Of course, also for high performance models (prospective) sales statistics, emissions and consumption figures matter. However flagship models also offer opportunities to boost brand image (MT: 'for purists', 'more involvement', 'more fun', etc.) and MT may help distancing cars within the pecking order (MT as 'Slow Hand') ...with the fringe benefit for MT aficionados to get their hands on an MT version instead of being condemned to 'dual-clutch transmission only'.

The fact that Porsche offers an MT version for the second gen GT3 made headlines, in a positive sense, regardless of how many MT will be effectively sold. Porsche marketing eagerly shows off this feature. Nowhere will you read in magazines, blogs and forums that - considering the low MT market sales figures - this move by Porsche was an error of judgement, well on the contrary: it's applauded unisono. Porsche won't be bothered by the likely fact that the vast majority of sold GT3 will be PDK (low MT take rate). The mere fact of offering an MT option - regardless of sales - got them extra kudos, leaving the 'dual-clutch transmission only' competition behind. That itself makes it worth offering an MT option.

I recall meeting by chance a Porsche Cayman GTS owner in the Alps in the Summer of 2014. European Delivery - brandnew car - manual gearbox. Porsche had told him that his GTS was peculiar, as "only 5%" opted for the manual gearbox (95% PDK). Six months later: *BOOM*: Porsche presents the Cayman GT4 featuring the manual gearbox of the Cayman GTS (100% this time, instead of only 5%), including the "we listened to our customers !" tag-line. Needless to remind to the frenzy that followed: sold out in no time. I remain convinced that also the 'manual only' factor contributed to the GT4's success and prestige, alike the 'manual only' factor of the BMW 1M back in 2011.

BMW M would make a smart move by offering an MT option for the forthcoming M2 CS. No MT ? No party: if no MT option had been offered for the base M2, another manual transmission car would be sitting right now inside my garage. Pretty polarizing, I know, but for most it's a personal thing.

Leaving the last word to Porsche GT boss Andreas Preuninger: see 15:52 to 19:00 in the video below. Feel free to call it marketing speak, but many will agree that there is effectively something emotional, hard to grasp with words, about manually rowing through the gears:

"If you want a car for track use, if want to go every other weekend fight-to-fight stopwatch to your local track: go for PDK, definitely. If you use the car, maybe not on track but as a daily commuter going through traffic: take the PDK. But you want a driver's car, a fun car: take the manual. [...]
We encountered a niche in the market, a need for a driver's car. People were asking us, no, were begging us, to make more of that kind and the GT3 can do that. With a manual transmission it becomes a driver's car. It's not so much a racetrack focus car. It's still great on track, but, I mean, it takes longer time to shift, but it's the emotions that come across are going the same direction as what we were addressing with the (911)R."

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by stormlv

I don't think that you necessarily addressed the points that I made above.
Leaving out all other factors, like pressure on companies for more economical & greener cars, there's also pressure on consumers to head in that direction.

Anyway, I guess then, it all depends if they interpret "15 to 20%" as strong demand and if they do, I'm curious what does "try" mean for them.

Obviously they either didn't "try" hard enough for the CS, or they interpreted 15 to 20% as not "strong" enough

Apparently it means they will only TRY and keep a manual in the base model

[paliknight]

Is it true about the lack of speakers? I forgot where I read that. And where did they move the goodies for your phone?

[adc]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

And you are missing mine. I definitely intend to use it on track. The main reason I have been buying ///M cars since 2001 is for them to serve as dual duty cars for the DD and track, as they are intended. And I do track a fair bit at a rate of ~20 track days a year. Those cardboard door trims and spartan interior are a deterent to me because they provide barely any benefit on track while sacrificing DD comfort and practicality. They are for the poseur: look at my race car interior.

I look at it from a slightly different perspective - when you get into a car like this with a more barebones interior, or a half cage or fixed carbon seats, even though it is marginally less comfortable it puts you in a different frame of mind about driving even before you start the engine.

At least that's the effect on me.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Weight difference between 6MT M4 and M-DCT M4 is approx. 40 kg (88 lb).

FYI, the "official" weight penalty of the DCT on the F8X has been reduced to 25kg (55lb).

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1338356

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Weight difference between 6MT M4 and M-DCT M4 is approx. 40 kg (88 lb). 6MT on a CS model = lower weight.

Of course, also for high performance models (prospective) sales statistics, emissions and consumption figures matter. However flagship models also offer opportunities to boost brand image (MT: 'for purists', 'more involvement', 'more fun', etc.) and MT may help distancing cars within the pecking order (MT as 'Slow Hand') ...with the fringe benefit for MT aficionados to get their hands on an MT version instead of being condemned to 'dual-clutch transmission only'.

The fact that Porsche offers an MT version for the second gen GT3 made headlines, in a positive sense, regardless of how many MT will be effectively sold. Porsche marketing eagerly shows off this feature. Nowhere will you read in magazines, blogs and forums that - considering the low MT market sales figures - this move by Porsche was an error of judgement, well on the contrary: it's applauded unisono. Porsche won't be bothered by the likely fact that the vast majority of sold GT3 will be PDK (low MT take rate). The mere fact of offering an MT option - regardless of sales - got them extra kudos, leaving the 'dual-clutch transmission only' competition behind. That itself makes it worth offering an MT option.

I recall meeting by chance a Porsche Cayman GTS owner in the Alps in the Summer of 2014. European Delivery - brandnew car - manual gearbox. Porsche had told him that his GTS was peculiar, as "only 5%" opted for the manual gearbox (95% PDK). Six months later: *BOOM*: Porsche presents the Cayman GT4 featuring the manual gearbox of the Cayman GTS (100% this time, instead of only 5%), including the "we listened to our customers !" tag-line. Needless to remind to the frenzy that followed: sold out in no time. I remain convinced that also the 'manual only' factor contributed to the GT4's success and prestige, alike the 'manual only' factor of the BMW 1M back in 2011.

BMW M would make a smart move by offering an MT option for the forthcoming M2 CS. No MT ? No party: if no MT option had been offered for the base M2, another manual transmission car would be sitting right now inside my garage. Pretty polarizing, I know, but for most it's a personal thing.

Leaving the last word to Porsche GT boss Andreas Preuninger: see 15:52 to 19:00 in the video below. Feel free to call it marketing speak, but many will agree that there is effectively something emotional, hard to grasp with words, about manually rowing through the gears:

"If you want a car for track use, if want to go every other weekend fight-to-fight stopwatch to your local track: go for PDK, definitely. If you use the car, maybe not on track but as a daily commuter going through traffic: take the PDK. But you want a driver's car, a fun car: take the manual. [...]
We encountered a niche in the market, a need for a driver's car. People were asking us, no, were begging us, to make more of that kind and the GT3 can do that. With a manual transmission it becomes a driver's car. It's not so much a racetrack focus car. It's still great on track, but, I mean, it takes longer time to shift, but it's the emotions that come across are going the same direction as what we were addressing with the (911)R."

IIRC, the development of the 991 GT3 started when Porsche was still an independent company. So maybe Porsche could not afford the effect of increased emmisions/fuel economy of a manual GT3 on its fleet average. Porsche now being part of VW since mid-2012, gives them much more leeway in terms of total fleet average. Maybe that is helping them with offering manuals again.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

FYI, the "official" weight penalty of the DCT on the F8X has been reduced to 25kg (55lb).
http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1338356

Thanks for the info. That 'adjustment' info went sub radar for me.

Quite puzzling that the M-DCT M4 weight was 'adjusted' with +3 kg while the 6MT M4 was adjusted with a whopping +18kg. So BMW adjusted both with extra weight narrowing down the difference to 25 kg instead of 40 kg.

Any sensible explanation for the +18 kg 'adjustment' ? Is the gear stick made of lead ? Lead pillow under the seat ? When I used to fly gliders in my teenager years I was required to put pillows filled with lead under my flight seat to increase the weight of the nose part of the plane (limiting the risk of stalling). Reason: back in the day my body was still, say, CSL or LWT. Over time my body has evolved to CS or vanilla 6MT. No need for lead pillows anymore, haha...

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

IIRC, the development of the 991 GT3 started when Porsche was still an independent company. So maybe Porsche could not afford the effect of increased emmisions/fuel economy of a manual GT3 on its fleet average. Porsche now being part of VW since mid-2012, gives them much more leeway in terms of total fleet average. Maybe that is helping them with offering manuals again.

Indeed interesting to keep in mind that Porsche has been taken over by Volkswagen after its failed attempt to take over Volkswagen (the predative overtaker being overtaken by its potential prey).

So a merger between BMW and Toyota (or another car manufacturer targetting more mainstream customers than the premium segment targeted by Porsche, BMW, Audi and Merc) could save the manual for BMW M cars ?