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      03-21-2014, 10:55 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketBoots View Post
I agree the article said a lot of fluff, but didn't really tell us anything. The so-called gains - weight reduction, energy/fuel efficiency - are laughable. I DO think cost savings plays a big part.
IMO, fuel efficiency is likely the greatest incentive for going with an EPS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketBoots View Post
One thing I extracted from the article, however, is the amount of software involved, especially when tied in with the adaptive suspension.
The only reference to the EDC I captured in the interview, is the fact that the steering effort can be selected independently from the suspension setting, where one race driver preferred the suspension in Sport+ while keeping the steering in Comfort.
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      03-21-2014, 12:59 PM   #46
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The idea that somehow EPS is automatically inferior to hydraulic systems is foolish. The car is still mechanically connected to the wheels. Hydraulic or EPS is simply a level of assist. Hydraulic tended to fall into three categories: Overboosted where the assist during steering input was so great that the steering lost feel, underboosted where the steering was heavy but feel was as good as it was going to be, or somewhere in the middle.

The nice thing about hydraulic setups was they tended to be very linear/predictable.

For a long time, BMW had excellent suspension and steering setup to transmit feel into the steering wheel and simply underboosted their systems so the steering felt heavy, but tactile.

In recent times they have increased their boost, lost some steering feel, and gotten lighter steering as a result. They have also isolated their rides a bit more, which tends to eliminate steering feel. Lastly, BMW became excellent at eliminating bump-steer which some consider to be part of steering feell.

Now the move to EPS. EPS has gotten a bad rap - pure and simple. It's simply a new boosting mechanism. It's not inherently weaker/worse than hydraulic, it's simply new. It does save weight and it does reduce parasitic loss on the engine - two great things. There is LESS complexity to it in terms of hoses and reservoirs in addition to the pump.

The bottom line though is that it's entirely possible that BMW did achieve even better feel than the e90 with EPS. This would require the following:

1. The suspension would have to be better setup to transmit road conditions. I would wager to say the f-series chassis is superior and the things we've learned about the F8x Ms indicate it's more suspension-oriented in it's development. So this is a reasonable expectation.

2. M has focused specifically on not overboosting the steering and eliminating feel in the process. My guess is that this steering is going to be a bit heavier than the e9x platform and we're going to see a bit more kick-back and natural return to center.


Yes, the proof is in the pudding. But steering is not about what pump is used to boost it, though that's important. Take a look at the whole situation and it looks good.
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      03-21-2014, 01:14 PM   #47
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Nonsense above. EPS is a totally different technology than HPS. It's not just a matter of boost level. Every EPS I've driven is lousy feel and feedback, including all BMWs and the new 911 and Cayman.

I would be very surprised if the M3/4 EPS system is even CLOSE to my E90 M3 with the Benvo servotronic mod. Or stock for that matter.
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      03-21-2014, 01:18 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soberin View Post
Nonsense above. EPS is a totally different technology than HPS. It's not just a matter of boost level. Every EPS I've driven is lousy feel and feedback, including all BMWs and the new 911 and Cayman.

I would be very surprised if the M3/4 EPS system is even CLOSE to my E90 M3 with the Benvo servotronic mod. Or stock for that matter.
that's your opinion, and that's cool, but I have a totally different experience with both the 991 and the cayman. both have also gotten very good reviews on steering feel. the worst thing that anyone says about them is its not quite to the level of the 997.2 or prior cayman models, but most agree its damn close

plus the 991s and 991 4s won back to back best drivers cars over stuff like the italia, the r8 v10 plus, etc.....im pretty sure the steering doesn't suck, and its certainly as good as the e9x m3 in most peoples opinions.
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      03-21-2014, 01:41 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
that's your opinion, and that's cool, but I have a totally different experience with both the 991 and the cayman. both have also gotten very good reviews on steering feel. the worst thing that anyone says about them is its not quite to the level of the 997.2 or prior cayman models, but most agree its damn close

plus the 991s and 991 4s won back to back best drivers cars over stuff like the italia, the r8 v10 plus, etc.....im pretty sure the steering doesn't suck, and its certainly as good as the e9x m3 in most peoples opinions.
I found that the computer program that Porsche uses to "filter" the EPS, so that the driver feels only what the Porsche engineers want you to feel, has really hurt the steering feel and feedback. This has been widely noted by most major motoring magazines. Depends what you like.
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      03-21-2014, 03:06 PM   #50
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I'm going to agree with soberin here, I drove a few Porsche's with their "top of the line" EPS system and hated it. It's very artificial and feels extremely fake at extreme high speeds and extreme low speeds. It's maybe "meh" okay in between. I don't understand how anyone in their right mind would pick the EPS in that car over the HPS in the E9X M3 or F10 M5. The HPS in the M5 is simply perfect in my opinion.

There is also a reason why BMW invested in a lot of R&D in their top of the line M5 & M6 for a brand new HPS, because they knew the EPS would be unacceptable for the type of people they try to sell this car to, at least not in their first initial "M" version. They didn't take the risk and did it the hard way. They chose EPS with M3 & M4 because the crowd driving those cars are more open to new technologies and it gives BMW time to make those new technologies ready for the next generation M cars. Simple as that. I highly doubt the EPS in this car will be flawless. It won't be as numb as 335's, but won't be like an HPS.

I was reading an article the other day and unfortunately I cannot find it. It was basically talking about how Porsche chose EPS over HPS because it would literally take 3-4 times more time and R&D to work on a new HPS system compared to the EPS.

As for this article, it's all marketing obviously and people need to stop complaining about it. The guy works for BMW, what is he supposed to say? If you were him, would you say anything else? You guys need to relax, seriously
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      03-21-2014, 03:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
There is also a reason why BMW invested in a lot of R&D in their top of the line M5 & M6 for a brand new HPS, because they knew the EPS would be unacceptable for the type of people they try to sell this car to, at least not in their first initial "M" version. They didn't take the risk and did it the hard way. They chose EPS with M3 & M4 because the crowd driving those cars are more open to new technologies and it gives BMW time to make those new technologies ready for the next generation M cars.
I am not sure about this paragraph. In general, the crowd that purchases M3s (and now M4s ) are more of the "purist"/"track junky" bunch compared to the M5 buyers. I would tend to believe that this M3/M4 crowd will be much more critical of how the steering feels vs the M5/M6 crowd.

IMO it is more a question of timing. Most likely the EPS was not at the technology readiness level that the ///M division wanted when the F1X M5/6 was developped.
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      03-21-2014, 03:46 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
I am not sure about this paragraph. In general, the crowd that purchases M3s (and now M4s ) are more of the "purist"/"track junky" bunch compared to the M5 buyers. I would tend to believe that this M3/M4 crowd will be much more critical of how the steering feels vs the M5/M6 crowd.

IMO it is more a question of timing. Most likely the EPS was not at the technology readiness level that the ///M division wanted when the F1X M5/6 was developped.
That's not how it works.

For every 10 M3 BMW sells (and/or M4), they sell 1 M6. There is far less room for error in M6 than there is in M3. If they went with EPS in the M6 and screw up, losing that 1 customer can be the death of the production year easily whereas M3/M4 has such a large market, it is more forgiving.

The forum + BMWCCA crowd that you mention who are purists make up maybe 1% of all M3 sales globally. An M3, under ideal conditions (i.e. same cash incentive, decent residual etc) costs almost HALF of an M5 (same can be said for M4 and M6), thus attracting a lot of the 25-30 year old middle income crowd.

It's all about risk taking. EPS was already in the 5 series years ago. They could have done what they did with the M3 very easily. The entire assembly is already outsourced to another company (ZF), and whatever modifications they did requires 2-3 resources at most and maybe 6-12 months of R&D. They could have done this 3 years ago and put this system in the M5, but they knew doing so would be risky (because they themselves know in the back of their head that EPS is no HPS), thus they picked the more stable and risk free route with the M5/M6.

You guys need to accept the following and move on :

- EPS is not going to feel like HPS. It cannot and it will not.
- A turbo engine is not a naturally aspirated engine.
- A 6 cylinder inline engine will not sound like a V8.

There is nothing anyone can do about any of this. None of this will change and this is how these new cars are. We all have to accept it and move on. The good thing is, they still make cars that address all these issues (M5/M6), so if you are not happy with the M3/M4, you have the opportunity to "upgrade".
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      03-21-2014, 03:54 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soberin View Post
Nonsense above. EPS is a totally different technology than HPS. It's not just a matter of boost level. Every EPS I've driven is lousy feel and feedback, including all BMWs and the new 911 and Cayman.

I would be very surprised if the M3/4 EPS system is even CLOSE to my E90 M3 with the Benvo servotronic mod. Or stock for that matter.
Really? Nonsense? Do me a favor: go find a dictionary.

Of course it's a totally different technology, but AT ROOT it's trying to do the same thing - assist in steering effort.

Also, I'm going to assume you feel the Honda S2000 and Acura NSX, both EPS systems developed between 15 and 20 years ago, are lousy in feel and feedback?

Those cars were developed from the ground up on an EPS system. Sufficient focus on delivering an excellent driving experience with EPS pays off.

It's not a mystery, it's just hard to get right - even moreso in "luxury" sports cars who want to limit kick-back and bump steer and what not.
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      03-21-2014, 03:56 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
You guys need to accept the following and move on :

- EPS could totally feel exactly like HPS, could be better, could be worse. We have no idea since it's so specific to each developed system and we're just magazine racing until the f8x comes out.
- A turbo engine is not a naturally aspirated engine.
- A 6 cylinder inline engine will not sound like a V8.
Lightly airbrushed that for ya. All good now.
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      03-21-2014, 04:07 PM   #55
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The decent EPS systems I've tested works good on the track but none is very close to a good hydraulic system when it comes to natural feel, something that I personally value higher than maximum performance. It's a similar topic to FI vs. NA engines and Adaptive vs. passive dampers. Optimal performance does not equal the best feel in terms of being one with the car. I would be fine racing with an EPS system but prefer the feel of a good HPS system when driving for fun on backroads or every day commuting.

That said, I have hopes that this new BMW/ZF EPS system will be the most comunicative and natural EPS system out there but it's NOT something I take for granted independent how much propaganda BMW put out there. It needs to be verified by independent reviews and of course personal test drives.
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      03-21-2014, 04:19 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
TIL : the m5 is the enthusiasts choice. If you are unhappy with the steering and performance of the 991 and new m3, you can upgrade to the pure performance of the 4400 lb m5

Makes sense

Steering in the m5 is much better than the EPS in the porsche. Say what you want to say, and I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
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      03-21-2014, 04:31 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
Steering in the m5 is much better than the EPS in the porsche. Say what you want to say, and I'm not the only one who thinks that way.
You are in the minority, which is a fact

The m6 got destroyed in the best drivers cars competiton by motortrend, and the 991 won two years in a row. Read te comments on handling and feel (or lack thereof) yourself.

http://m.motortrend.com/features/per...t_drivers_car/

I'm glad you like your m5, but it's not a sports car and in no way is better than a 991 or likely the m3 in any handling characteristics. No way

Moral of the story : eps doesn't mean it sucks at handling / steering and hps doesn't mean it's good. It's not that simple, not even close

Last edited by Black Gold; 03-21-2014 at 04:47 PM..
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      03-21-2014, 05:02 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
You are in the minority, which is a fact

The m6 got destroyed in the best drivers cars competiton by motortrend, and the 991 won two years in a row. Read te comments on handling and feel (or lack thereof) yourself.

http://m.motortrend.com/features/per...t_drivers_car/

I'm glad you like your m5, but it's not a sports car and in no way is better than a 991 or likely the m3 in any handling characteristics. No way

Moral of the story : eps doesn't mean it sucks at handling / steering and hps doesn't mean it's good. It's not that simple, not even close
I dont care what some magazine said about the M6.

I said this before in the other thread, I dont track my cars, I dont mod my cars, I dont dyno my cars. I drive them in the city and highway and some country roads thats all. Under these conditions, the Porsche felt like sh!t and M6 was the king. It may be totally different in some track somewhere in Germany, I could care less. I can speak for the "main street" if you know what I mean and I would never take EPS over the HPS in the new M5/M6 - never.

I can sit and argue here for you for regarding turbo vs NA or activesound or I6 vs V8, but for EPS, I wont argue, there is just no point - its that bad, period.

I also want to mention that handling is not all about steering. Porsche does handle better than an M6, but that doesnt mean its steering is better than M6's steering. I'd pick Porsche's handling over M6, but I'd pick M6's steering (just the steering alone) over Porsche's.

I think for track junkies who spend a third of their time in a year modifying their cars and dynoing them EPS might offer some benefits or may get them excited, but I'm not one of those people, heck if I were, I'd be driving a Subaru not BMW.
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      03-21-2014, 06:49 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soberin View Post
Nonsense above. EPS is a totally different technology than HPS. It's not just a matter of boost level. Every EPS I've driven is lousy feel and feedback, including all BMWs and the new 911 and Cayman.

I would be very surprised if the M3/4 EPS system is even CLOSE to my E90 M3 with the Benvo servotronic mod. Or stock for that matter.
The reason for this is that EPS allows engineers to do things that were impossible with hydraulic systems:
  • Lane keeping
  • Alignment compensation
  • Filtering out road inputs
  • Understeer mitigation

All of these technologies serve to disconnect the driver from the road.

The fact is that most people want light, easy steering that transmits no vibration whatsoever, and EPS allows the engineers to achieve this.

Take out all these safety and comfort features, and it IS simply a matter of boost. BMW claims to have done this with the F8X, so hopefully the result is good.
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      03-21-2014, 06:57 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
I also want to mention that handling is not all about steering. Porsche does handle better than an M6, but that doesnt mean its steering is better than M6's steering. I'd pick Porsche's handling over M6, but I'd pick M6's steering (just the steering alone) over Porsche's.
Erudite !!!!
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      03-21-2014, 07:09 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Cost savings play a big part in every aspect of product design, so you are right.
Except in the plethora of cases, cars and otherwise where it doesn't... Often the technology, specification topping, safety, quality or simply the no expense spared approach wins over cost.
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      03-21-2014, 07:18 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
That's not how it works.

For every 10 M3 BMW sells (and/or M4), they sell 1 M6. There is far less room for error in M6 than there is in M3. If they went with EPS in the M6 and screw up, losing that 1 customer can be the death of the production year easily whereas M3/M4 has such a large market, it is more forgiving.
I don't think this is how it works either...

BMW doesn't sit around thinking about how their steering system may loose a certain percentage of customers. 10% loss of sales in the M5 and or M6 mean way less financially than a 10% loss in the M3 and M4. Now that is a fact. A cars overall steering may contribute in a minor fashion to some win or loss of sales but there is so much more to the steering feel than just the choice of hydraulic vs. electric. Great and crappy systems can be made with either and BMW isn't going to release a crappy one with either in an M car.
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      03-21-2014, 07:19 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
The reason for this is that EPS allows engineers to do things that were impossible with hydraulic systems:
  • Lane keeping
  • Alignment compensation
  • Filtering out road inputs
  • Understeer mitigation

All of these technologies serve to disconnect the driver from the road.

The fact is that most people want light, easy steering that transmits no vibration whatsoever, and EPS allows the engineers to achieve this.

Take out all these safety and comfort features, and it IS simply a matter of boost. BMW claims to have done this with the F8X, so hopefully the result is good.
I agree with this.

Also, IMHO, and historically, M3's are much more true 'race' or sports cars than M5's and M6's. Also, thebigger, heavier cars seem to be the test bed/recipient of newer technologies, and some of that trickles down. M3 is sort of an exception.

All the people I know who have M5's are older (than me and the average M3 crowd), and/or like big cars, like going fast in a straight line, and like luxury comfort features. They are not necessarily more wealthy. That's a very different market than that for the M3. Sure there's plenty of those type people that will go for the M3, but the opposite is generally not true. Just IMO and IME.

There also plenty of people with an M5 and a 911. But they're proposed very differently by the owner.

In any case, back on topic. For me, I've just accepted the EPS. If I felt so strongly about it, I probably would just get a used E92 or 997.2, along with the inherent trade-offs of each. I don't feel that strongly about it, and I'm not willing to make those kinds of trade-offs, so I'm getting an M4
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      03-21-2014, 07:20 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
The reason for this is that EPS allows engineers to do things that were impossible with hydraulic systems:
  • Lane keeping
  • Alignment compensation
  • Filtering out road inputs
  • Understeer mitigation

All of these technologies serve to disconnect the driver from the road.

The fact is that most people want light, easy steering that transmits no vibration whatsoever, and EPS allows the engineers to achieve this.

Take out all these safety and comfort features, and it IS simply a matter of boost. BMW claims to have done this with the F8X, so hopefully the result is good.
Good post, especially the bulleted list. Right on the money. Just like transmissions, steering is becoming more and more about software. I talked about this quite a bit with the dawn of the new M-DCT.
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      03-21-2014, 08:49 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
That's not how it works.

For every 10 M3 BMW sells (and/or M4), they sell 1 M6. There is far less room for error in M6 than there is in M3. If they went with EPS in the M6 and screw up, losing that 1 customer can be the death of the production year easily whereas M3/M4 has such a large market, it is more forgiving.

The forum + BMWCCA crowd that you mention who are purists make up maybe 1% of all M3 sales globally. An M3, under ideal conditions (i.e. same cash incentive, decent residual etc) costs almost HALF of an M5 (same can be said for M4 and M6), thus attracting a lot of the 25-30 year old middle income crowd.

It's all about risk taking. EPS was already in the 5 series years ago. They could have done what they did with the M3 very easily. The entire assembly is already outsourced to another company (ZF), and whatever modifications they did requires 2-3 resources at most and maybe 6-12 months of R&D. They could have done this 3 years ago and put this system in the M5, but they knew doing so would be risky (because they themselves know in the back of their head that EPS is no HPS), thus they picked the more stable and risk free route with the M5/M6.

You guys need to accept the following and move on :

- EPS is not going to feel like HPS. It cannot and it will not.
- A turbo engine is not a naturally aspirated engine.
- A 6 cylinder inline engine will not sound like a V8.

There is nothing anyone can do about any of this. None of this will change and this is how these new cars are. We all have to accept it and move on. The good thing is, they still make cars that address all these issues (M5/M6), so if you are not happy with the M3/M4, you have the opportunity to "upgrade".
You probably need a reality check. The M3/4 and M5/6 are not targeted at the same crowd, and it is not only a question of money or age demographic. The M3/4 are sporty compact sedans and coupes that are very decent track machines while the the M5/6 are luxo bahn stormers. I do have the money to pay MSRP for an M5, but I'd much rather have an M3. It suits my needs better. For me, the M5 is not an upgrade, it is just a different car. Further, the M5/M6 are not selling. Here in Canada, you can get a brand new M5 for the same price as an F8X M3 because the dealers cannot get them moving off the lots fast enough. IMO, the M3/M4 are more important to the image of BMW than the M5/6, BMW was quoted in this forum saying that couldn't afford to screw up the M3/4.

I stand by my point that the EPS was not yet at the level BMW wanted for the M5/6, but BMW now feel that EPS is technologically ready for an ///M car.

Will it be as good as an HPS? I don't know. I'll have to wait till I drive the car before I can comment.
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      03-21-2014, 09:15 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You probably need a reality check. The M3/4 and M5/6 are not targeted at the same crowd, and it is not only a question of money or age demographic. The M3/4 are sporty compact sedans and coupes that are very decent track machines while the the M5/6 are luxo bahn stormers. I do have the money to pay MSRP for an M5, but I'd much rather have an M3. It suits my needs better. For me, the M5 is not an upgrade, it is just a different car. Further, the M5/M6 are not selling. Here in Canada, you can get a brand new M5 for the same price as an F8X M3 because the dealers cannot get them moving off the lots fast enough. IMO, the M3/M4 are more important to the image of BMW than the M5/6, BMW was quoted in this forum saying that couldn't afford to screw up the M3/4.

I stand by my point that the EPS was not yet at the level BMW wanted for the M5/6, but BMW now feel that EPS is technologically ready for an ///M car.

Will it be as good as an HPS? I don't know. I'll have to wait till I drive the car before I can comment.


Flawless reply. Spot on , my Canadian friend.
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