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      03-21-2014, 10:57 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Except in the plethora of cases, cars and otherwise where it doesn't... Often the technology, specification topping, safety, quality or simply the no expense spared approach wins over cost.
In any rational business/engineering decision, I don't think any of these reasons ever 'wins' over cost, as if only it is taken for important enough, cost doesn't matter anymore. Of course it's all about cost-benefit-ratio.

In this specific case, I agree, it remains to be seen if cost has viciously been overrated again.

I don't trust car magazines though, at least german ones. Articles almost always seem to be manipulated and tendentious, and only then sometimes in favor for BMW, if a certain huge manufacturer group doesn't participate in the same test. Also, concerning steering, my own experience often (in about 3/4 of all cases) differs largely from what is written in an article. But admittedly, I think I could be called a fan-boy, although I don't like the expression. Up to a certain point, I would still buy BMW products, even I by myself would rate them as (slightly) technical inferior to those of the competition. I'd justify this as some kind of long-term investment, I suppose.

Last edited by Kadema; 03-22-2014 at 08:46 AM.
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      03-22-2014, 06:44 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Except in the plethora of cases, cars and otherwise where it doesn't... Often the technology, specification topping, safety, quality or simply the no expense spared approach wins over cost.
Which is why being the consumer is so great. We get to decide what offers us the best value and spend our money there. If someone can get more value for their ~$70k by purchasing other products elsewhere, then they should not hesitate to do so.

And not that it should need to be said, but no manufacturer is throwing around money carelessly and wastefully. At least none that wants to stay in business. If you can compete with a solution costing you $X, then, no, you don't spend $X+ just for the novelty of it. If a company is willing to spend more on a product it is only because the business case tells them that they will profit more for doing so. Porsche is a shining example of this profit maximization at work. Complete with EPS in cars costing up to and over $200k. Spare no expense indeed - consumer expense.

Since we are speculating about costs, though, I'll add this speculation. For me, I strongly doubt any other manufacturer has paid as much attention to the steering as BMW M has in this price range. I'm not saying BMW will have the best steering or the best car, even. But it won't be for lack of effort in my opinion.
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      03-22-2014, 09:15 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
You probably need a reality check. The M3/4 and M5/6 are not targeted at the same crowd, and it is not only a question of money or age demographic. The M3/4 are sporty compact sedans and coupes that are very decent track machines while the the M5/6 are luxo bahn stormers. I do have the money to pay MSRP for an M5, but I'd much rather have an M3. It suits my needs better. For me, the M5 is not an upgrade, it is just a different car. Further, the M5/M6 are not selling. Here in Canada, you can get a brand new M5 for the same price as an F8X M3 because the dealers cannot get them moving off the lots fast enough. IMO, the M3/M4 are more important to the image of BMW than the M5/6, BMW was quoted in this forum saying that couldn't afford to screw up the M3/4.

I stand by my point that the EPS was not yet at the level BMW wanted for the M5/6, but BMW now feel that EPS is technologically ready for an ///M car.

Will it be as good as an HPS? I don't know. I'll have to wait till I drive the car before I can comment.
You are only telling the half of the story. You can get an M5 for the same (or in fact less) price as an M3, that's right, but that's because a) you can get an M5 at invoice pricing (which is what anyone who bought an E9X M3 on or after 2010 did including myself, so I disagree that it's an indication of cars not selling well), and b) more importantly, M3 is at sticker, 3% less residual, has no cash incentive, so ahem, you guys are getting ripped off a little bit
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      03-22-2014, 09:59 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
IMO it is more a question of timing. Most likely the EPS was not at the technology readiness level that the ///M division wanted when the F1X M5/6 was developped.
This exactly.

Any M5/M6 customer imagining that HPS will remain a feature in those cars is going to face disappointment with the next generation product. HPS is, in fact, unlikely to appear in any future BMW, and will most probably be as dead as the carburetor and drum brake in passenger cars in just a few years time.
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      03-22-2014, 10:14 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
You are only telling the half of the story. You can get an M5 for the same (or in fact less) price as an M3, that's right, but that's because a) you can get an M5 at invoice pricing (which is what anyone who bought an E9X M3 on or after 2010 did including myself, so I disagree that it's an indication of cars not selling well), and b) more importantly, M3 is at sticker, 3% less residual, has no cash incentive, so ahem, you guys are getting ripped off a little bit
I think it's worth spending a little more to get the car you want with the latest and greatest in ///M Motorsport technology than an aging model. I'm sure that they will have tweaked the EPS system further for the next M5 model and then M5 drivers like you will get a chance to have it too. In the meantime enjoy the last (and arguably the best version) of the old belt and pulley driven system.
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      03-22-2014, 10:17 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
You are only telling the half of the story. You can get an M5 for the same (or in fact less) price as an M3, that's right, but that's because a) you can get an M5 at invoice pricing (which is what anyone who bought an E9X M3 on or after 2010 did including myself, so I disagree that it's an indication of cars not selling well), and b) more importantly, M3 is at sticker, 3% less residual, has no cash incentive, so ahem, you guys are getting ripped off a little bit
Yes we are, it's the price to pay to be the early adopters

But the fact remains, at least here in Canada, the M5s are not selling. The M3/4 are not even in the show rooms yet, and the dealer allocations are going fast. This was never the case with the M5/6.
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      03-22-2014, 11:45 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
And not that it should need to be said, but no manufacturer is throwing around money carelessly and wastefully. At least none that wants to stay in business. If you can compete with a solution costing you $X, then, no, you don't spend $X+ just for the novelty of it. If a company is willing to spend more on a product it is only because the business case tells them that they will profit more for doing so. Porsche is a shining example of this profit maximization at work.
(as a reply to Kadema above as well)

How about Ferrari explicitly stating that they are selling less cars than the demand which drastically limits their profit? Doesn't seem rational and probably isn't. Surely the idea of limiting supply to create large unmet demand is not required to maintain Ferrari's pricing. Also, "novelty" had nothing to due with the reasons I stated when sometimes cost is not a factor or least a very small factor. There is a difference between BMW, Ferrari, Rolls Royce and perhaps finally custom business jets or yachts. In the latter two, cost often (not always) just isn't a factor. Also, not having cost as a relevant or significant factor isn't the same as throwing money around carelessly.
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      03-22-2014, 12:24 PM   #74
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One of the many advantages of EPS is the ease of integration with the other systems, such as adaptive suspension. So much easier to adjust software to fine-tune fit with other components. Push the Sport button and whiffo-presto, all systems changed in synch. Last minute production changes in other components, just change software. Specific fine-tuning to other options, e.g., DCT, easily done via software. Revisions, easy. So much easier/cheaper to do the computer modeling of the whole car during design.
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      03-22-2014, 12:25 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
You are only telling the half of the story. You can get an M5 for the same (or in fact less) price as an M3, that's right, but that's because a) you can get an M5 at invoice pricing (which is what anyone who bought an E9X M3 on or after 2010 did including myself, so I disagree that it's an indication of cars not selling well), and b) more importantly, M3 is at sticker, 3% less residual, has no cash incentive, so ahem, you guys are getting ripped off a little bit
...?

If the M5 was the exact same price as an M3, I'd take the M3.
So would nearly everyone, because the M5/6 are highway lux-bombers, not a track car. They are utterly different car, for a different purpose, for different type of person.


-CanAutM3 said:
"I would tend to believe that this M3/M4 crowd will be much more critical of how the steering feels vs the M5/M6 crowd."

-You said:
"...I dont track my cars, I dont mod my cars, I dont dyno my cars. I drive them in the city and highway and some country roads thats all."

Reality check: You are NOT as discerning as a driver, as you are a luxury owner, illustrated by your purchase of a 6-series.



Lastly, the M6 is not an upgrade over the M4. It is a literally a downgrade in every category except one, ego massage. (Fact!)
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      03-22-2014, 01:07 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Yes we are, it's the price to pay to be the early adopters

But the fact remains, at least here in Canada, the M5s are not selling. The M3/4 are not even in the show rooms yet, and the dealer allocations are going fast. This was never the case with the M5/6.
What are you talking about? Where is all this nonsense coming from? It has been 2+ years since M5 was released, in 2012, it was selling as much as M3/M4 was selling now (or relatively speaking). How many M3s were BMW selling in 2010 and 2011 compared to 2008 and 2009? It's the same thing.

I have had several BMWs and Ms and never have I paid a dime over invoice. There is being car enthusiast and then there is being the person who gets financially taken advantage of. It has got nothing to do with car sales and what not, it's all about timing.

Have fun "early adopting", I will see you back here in a few months complaining about this and that about your car. If you think that M3/M4 release will be a smooth sail with this much added technology and complexity, you are sadly mistaken.
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      03-22-2014, 01:11 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
...?

If the M5 was the exact same price as an M3, I'd take the M3.
So would nearly everyone, because the M5/6 are highway lux-bombers, not a track car. They are utterly different car, for a different purpose, for different type of person.


-CanAutM3 said:
"I would tend to believe that this M3/M4 crowd will be much more critical of how the steering feels vs the M5/M6 crowd."

-You said:
"...I dont track my cars, I dont mod my cars, I dont dyno my cars. I drive them in the city and highway and some country roads thats all."

Reality check: You are NOT as discerning as a driver, as you are a luxury owner, illustrated by your purchase of a 6-series.



Lastly, the M6 is not an upgrade over the M4. It is a literally a downgrade in every category except one, ego massage. (Fact!)
Coming from a guy whose car costs less than 1/3 of an M6.

I said I'm not a "track junkie" and I'm not. I'm not 25. I'm not single. I don't like driving around in a car that looks and sounds like those cars in Fast & Furious. I'm over that phase. I'm past lowering the car with springs, or custom BBS wheels, or exhaust mods, or driving to track with track tires in the back of my car and swapping them out there.

And I cannot tell you how glad I am that 9 out of 10 people going between an M3 and an M5 goes with an M3, it makes my car as just exclusive. M3s are everywhere where I live and almost every time they are driven by the similar type of looking person. I don't have to go on, you get my point
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      03-22-2014, 01:54 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
Coming from a guy whose car costs less than 1/3 of an M6.

I said I'm not a "track junkie" and I'm not. I'm not 25. I'm not single. I don't like driving around in a car that looks and sounds like those cars in Fast & Furious. I'm over that phase. I'm past lowering the car with springs, or custom BBS wheels, or exhaust mods, or driving to track with track tires in the back of my car and swapping them out there.

And I cannot tell you how glad I am that 9 out of 10 people going between an M3 and an M5 goes with an M3, it makes my car as just exclusive. M3s are everywhere where I live and almost every time they are driven by the similar type of looking person. I don't have to go on, you get my point
It sounds to my like you're ready for the 7 series, or the MB S series or the Audi S7 perhaps. These are even more refined than your M6 and well suited to non-track duty as well. Just don't drive them with the signal lights left on. It perpetuates stereotypes.
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      03-22-2014, 03:00 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
It sounds to my like you're ready for the 7 series, or the MB S series or the Audi S7 perhaps. These are even more refined than your M6 and well suited to non-track duty as well. Just don't drive them with the signal lights left on. It perpetuates stereotypes.
Duly noted
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      03-22-2014, 06:59 PM   #80
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Sure, swamp. I'm talking about an M3, not a Ferrari. If you are playing in the money-is-no-object, rarified air occupied by Ferrari and Rolls, then the business case changes considerably.

Still, I think we'll see Maranello start using EPS in the next few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
(as a reply to Kadema above as well)

How about Ferrari explicitly stating that they are selling less cars than the demand which drastically limits their profit? Doesn't seem rational and probably isn't. Surely the idea of limiting supply to create large unmet demand is not required to maintain Ferrari's pricing. Also, "novelty" had nothing to due with the reasons I stated when sometimes cost is not a factor or least a very small factor. There is a difference between BMW, Ferrari, Rolls Royce and perhaps finally custom business jets or yachts. In the latter two, cost often (not always) just isn't a factor. Also, not having cost as a relevant or significant factor isn't the same as throwing money around carelessly.
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      03-22-2014, 11:34 PM   #81
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Still, I think we'll see Maranello start using EPS in the next few years.
They will use EPS precisely when it is hands down better than hydraulic which is also precisely their thought on when they will use turbo charging, when lag is completely eliminated...
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      03-23-2014, 02:26 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit
Quote:
Originally Posted by w3rkn View Post
...?

If the M5 was the exact same price as an M3, I'd take the M3.
So would nearly everyone, because the M5/6 are highway lux-bombers, not a track car. They are utterly different car, for a different purpose, for different type of person.


-CanAutM3 said:
"I would tend to believe that this M3/M4 crowd will be much more critical of how the steering feels vs the M5/M6 crowd."

-You said:
"...I dont track my cars, I dont mod my cars, I dont dyno my cars. I drive them in the city and highway and some country roads thats all."

Reality check: You are NOT as discerning as a driver, as you are a luxury owner, illustrated by your purchase of a 6-series.



Lastly, the M6 is not an upgrade over the M4. It is a literally a downgrade in every category except one, ego massage. (Fact!)
Coming from a guy whose car costs less than 1/3 of an M6.

I said I'm not a "track junkie" and I'm not. I'm not 25. I'm not single. I don't like driving around in a car that looks and sounds like those cars in Fast & Furious. I'm over that phase. I'm past lowering the car with springs, or custom BBS wheels, or exhaust mods, or driving to track with track tires in the back of my car and swapping them out there.

And I cannot tell you how glad I am that 9 out of 10 people going between an M3 and an M5 goes with an M3, it makes my car as just exclusive. M3s are everywhere where I live and almost every time they are driven by the similar type of looking person. I don't have to go on, you get my point
Care to explain what this 'type' looks/acts like? Are they Asian? White? Black? EDM lovers? Muslim? Fat? Skinny?

What does the typical M5/6 driver look/act like? Constipated? Aged? Fat? Balding?


I'm genuinely curious because the demographic interested in the ///M3 and ///M4 varies widely. I've seen every type under the sun behind the wheel of an ///M car. I will tell you this much - and it's anecdotal - nearly every M5/M6/7 Series driver that I pull over while on a beat acts entitled and has a serious chip.
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      03-23-2014, 07:44 AM   #83
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Oh this psychographics battle is getting good!

I'll turn 60 later this year and I just stopped racing last April due to a nasty encounter with a tree at Summit Point Jefferson Circuit (ABS failure). Pressure from spouse & employees. Don't know where I fit in the stereotypes, but I'd still be towing a car with track tires if it weren't for that.

And I'm dumping my E60 M5 for the F80 M3 because the 5 is a little too truck-like for me. The V10 is spectacular, but I want my frisky handling back!
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      03-23-2014, 07:52 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhoggm3 View Post
Oh this psychographics battle is getting good!

I'll turn 60 later this year and I just stopped racing last April due to a nasty encounter with a tree at Summit Point Jefferson Circuit (ABS failure). Pressure from spouse & employees. Don't know where I fit in the stereotypes, but I'd still be towing a car with track tires if it weren't for that.

And I'm dumping my E60 M5 for the F80 M3 because the 5 is a little too truck-like for me. The V10 is spectacular, but I want my frisky handling back!
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      03-23-2014, 09:12 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhoggm3 View Post
Oh this psychographics battle is getting good!

I'll turn 60 later this year and I just stopped racing last April due to a nasty encounter with a tree at Summit Point Jefferson Circuit (ABS failure). Pressure from spouse & employees. Don't know where I fit in the stereotypes, but I'd still be towing a car with track tires if it weren't for that.

And I'm dumping my E60 M5 for the F80 M3 because the 5 is a little too truck-like for me. The V10 is spectacular, but I want my frisky handling back!
Gosh, i'm already 60 and I've ordered my first M car. I think the M5 is just too big and I wouldn't want an M5 or M6 for that reason. For me the M3 is the right size and has the right balance of power, comfort and size, while at the same time being full of technology and gadgets to play with. I'm far from being a technophobe.
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      03-23-2014, 09:38 AM   #86
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I'm not trying to be offending to anyone, simply stating my observations.

There are always exceptions to everything. Heck I know a guy, who after a masters in computer science and 10 years in the field, decided to go to med school at the age of 32 and is studying day and night now. It doesn't mean that's the norm though. Yes there are probably 50 year old family dads driving M4s as much as there are 22 year old kids who drive an M6, but again, not the norm.

What I have observed where I lived is all of the current and previous generation M3 owners, even the E90 sedan owners, were young males, between the ages of 20-30. Those of whom I had met, most of them had extremely cocky and more importantly aggressive attitude (similar to those people who are attacking me on this forum). They talked about nothing but car mods, 100 gas, 0-60 times, and used the words "dude" and "like" more than twice in every sentence. Again, this is my observation. From where I stand, this demographic left a sour taste in my mouth because everyone around me makes M3 look like the kids car.

Say what you want to say, this is what I have observed. It may be different in some part of the country where there isn't at least 1 BMW or 1 Mercedes per household.

Last edited by Below Speed Limit; 03-23-2014 at 09:45 AM.
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      03-23-2014, 10:02 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Below Speed Limit View Post
......all of the current and previous generation M3 owners, even the E90 sedan owners, were young males, between the ages of 20-30. .... most of them had extremely cocky and more importantly aggressive attitude .....
When you are between the ages of 20 and 30, you need to be cocky and aggressive.
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      03-23-2014, 10:28 AM   #88
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They will use EPS precisely when it is hands down better than hydraulic which is also precisely their thought on when they will use turbo charging, when lag is completely eliminated...
They just recently introduced a turbo-charged motor in the California. Surely it is not lag free.

Driving cost out of components does not always mean a functionally inferior product. Let's not forget that. A major part of engineering is simplicity and elegance. And sometimes, when you spend less money on one subsystem you can advance the state of the art on others. Carbon fiber, for example, isn't generally cheap as you know.
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