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      04-12-2014, 07:29 PM   #23
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That was some awesome reading material. CCBs last as long as the car will?! Crazy, thought you had to switch them out at 30k miles. If BMW did not offer maintenance program on the stock ones then CCBs would be much more valuable

As someone else mentioned I would consider them for $4k
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      04-12-2014, 07:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vAnt826 View Post
Right, if you are leasing the car this isn't too much of a problem.

If you are financing, I find it very unlikely that the $8k you just spent will be recognized in the car's value after a few years. I think it may be worth $2k after 3 years (guess).
You can't put a price tag on what an option is worth to someone, new or used. It depends on the person. Just like now some people are willing to pay $8K for CCBs, some aren't.
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      04-12-2014, 08:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb12
Helpful article, thanks for posting.

I would have like to know if there will be a sport pad for the CCB's like the one mentioned for the conventional brakes

m
Doubtful. Most people with CCBs on other cars at the track run the stock pads because CCBs in general already have tons of bite and tons of fade resistance in stock form even when paired with slick tires, so there's no reason to upgrade. There are a few aftermarket options, but very few pads are designed to work on carbon ceramic rotors.

I remember talking to a ZR1 owner who has CCBs and runs slicks at the track. He said that his track costs work out to about $1000/day just looking at the tires, pads, and rotors. And that's despite the fact that GM charges quite a bit less for their CCB components compared to Porsche, Ferrari, and BMW even though the parts are essentially identical.

For people going to the track, a BBK should result in much lower running costs and identical or nearly identical fade resistance compared to CCB -- or maybe even the stock system will be ok this time around. You won't get the dust-free benefit of CCBs (surprised the engineer didn't mention that), but I'll put up with dust and a bit of extra weight to avoid paying over $3K per rotor, judging by the cost of CCB rotors for the M5/6 at Turner Motorsport. That's even more scary when you consider that if you even NICK a CC rotor, such as while removing or mounting a wheel (or by kicking up debris during an off-track excursion), you have to replace it -- not too surprised the engineer didn't mention THAT. That's why a lot of Porsche guys who buy used cars with CCBs and intend to track them will often retrofit steel brakes instead.

CCBs are still much more of a vanity option than a legitimate practical/performance option at this point. For road-only cars, you're paying upfront to basically never need a brake service and never have brake dust on your rims. For track cars, you're paying just to shed a few pounds of unsprung weight, because a good steel setup will get you everything else (even a good chunk of the weight savings if it uses aluminum calipers and hats) for less upfront cost, a fraction of the running costs, and none of the anxiety during wheel changes or off-track adventures.
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      04-12-2014, 09:26 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Jelly M3 View Post
Very useful info for track junkies
I hope I don't see too many dive bombers on the track
if you didnt know this info already, you are not a track junky.. pretty std info, nothing out of ordinary.
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      04-12-2014, 09:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
No, it means you need minimum 18" or 19" rims to be able to fit that specific braking system.
Yeah, but awfully strange wording if that's what he's trying to say.
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      04-12-2014, 09:58 PM   #28
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Very informative, thanks for posting.
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      04-12-2014, 11:57 PM   #29
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'A new type of brake system' - seems conventional to me...
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      04-13-2014, 12:11 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCobra08 View Post
These are Brembo calipers correct?
Yes. And I can personally confirm this with respect to the "standard" calipers.
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      04-13-2014, 01:32 AM   #31
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So what's new besides fixed calipers, ability to purchase BMW sport pads and ability to get CCB?

The aluminum hub seems to have more pronounced radial vents which are seen on the f1xm cars as well
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      04-13-2014, 02:39 AM   #32
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Very informative, thanks!
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      04-13-2014, 04:11 AM   #33
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What is the sensor on the fender for? Just above the surroundview camera? If it's a PDC sensor, I don't see the point as it obviously already has surroundview. On my F31 with surround view, I don't have this, so I'm a bit intrigued. Sorry for off-topic, but it caught my attention ...
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      04-13-2014, 07:04 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman Murch View Post
So what's new besides fixed calipers, ability to purchase BMW sport pads and ability to get CCB?
Fixed multi-piston callipers is a first on the M3(/4). This is very welcome IMO.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 04-13-2014 at 11:24 AM..
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      04-13-2014, 07:07 AM   #35
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So who is going to be the first to put CCB on an E92 M3?
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      04-13-2014, 08:24 AM   #36
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It's hard to believe that BMW never thought about putting the M logo on their breaks never before on an M3
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      04-13-2014, 08:41 AM   #37
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Good to know. The standard brakes are definitely all I'll ever need. It is nice BMW is offering a performance pad too.
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      04-13-2014, 09:08 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vAnt826 View Post
Right, if you are leasing the car this isn't too much of a problem.

If you are financing, I find it very unlikely that the $8k you just spent will be recognized in the car's value after a few years. I think it may be worth $2k after 3 years (guess).
And as he stated, this is offset by the reduced maintenance cost versus the regular steel brakes. In fact, if you opt for the sports pads, and are changing out rotors AND pads regularly, then some might say the CCB's are CHEAPER for the same level of performance. At the very least, its not $8k that you just spent; its $8k minus maintenance costs, which, after 3 years, won't impact the initial price much. But if you keep your car 6yrs+, then there will be a significant offset to the initial investment.

So its not as expensive as people are making it out to be, and you get a higher level of performance. Its all in the interview right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Good to know. The standard brakes are definitely all I'll ever need. It is nice BMW is offering a performance pad too.
Yes, a performance pad, that, even in BMWs own words, will result in you changing out your discs every time you change your pads.. just to get the same level of performance as the CCB? So how many disc and pads changes will it take before you get to the cost of the CCB ? I'm guessing 3 sets.. Even 2 sets would make the price difference next to nothing.

It all comes down to how long you keep your car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
That's even more scary when you consider that if you even NICK a CC rotor, such as while removing or mounting a wheel (or by kicking up debris during an off-track excursion), you have to replace it -- not too surprised the engineer didn't mention THAT. That's why a lot of Porsche guys who buy used cars with CCBs and intend to track them will often retrofit steel brakes instead.
How many people do you personally know this has happened to ? Because we had a hard time on the CCB thread coming up with anyone that has had to replace rotors due to a ding.

Last edited by absoluteis350; 04-13-2014 at 09:17 AM..
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      04-13-2014, 09:26 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absoluteis350 View Post
Yes, a performance pad, that, even in BMWs own words, will result in you changing out your discs every time you change your pads.. just to get the same level of performance as the CCB? So how many disc and pads changes will it take before you get to the cost of the CCB ? I'm guessing 3 sets.. Even 2 sets would make the price difference next to nothing.
The sport pads are NOT intended to give steel brakes the same performance as CCBs on the road. They're not even intended to be run on the road at all. Based on the claims of noise, considerable braking noise, no form of comfort, and lower pad and rotor life, they're going to be full-blown race pads intended to give you close to CCB performance at the track, and you'd continue running the regular pads on the street. The claim that you must swap your rotors when you get/replace sport pads is bogus, though. I can see why BMW does it for liability reasons, but if you're diligent about scraping deposits from your street pads off of your rotors before running the race pads hard, you can keep the same rotors when swapping pads. People do that all the time. I suppose BMW might have designed the set so that by the time you've run all the way through a sport pad you've also chewed through an entire rotor, though.

At the track, CCBs definitely do not last forever. As for the breakeven point, on the F10 M5, a pair of front steel rotors costs $1002. A pair of CCB fronts costs $6346. And as someone who's talked with multiple people who track using CCBs on several different types of cars, let me tell you that CCBs don't last anywhere near 6x as long as steel -- usually they don't even last twice as long.

Sorry, there's just no way to construe CCBs as a good value proposition. If you stay on the road, you've already prepaid for so many brake jobs by getting CCB that you're unlikely to break even in the car's lifetime. And on a track car CCB's don't meaningfully outlive their steel counterparts despite costing a whole lot more, so you're actually behind on value in that setting -- and that's assuming you don't ever prematurely destroy a rotor by nicking it with off-track debris or during a wheel change.
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      04-13-2014, 09:33 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
The performance pads are NOT intended to give steel brakes the same performance as CCBs on the road. They're not even intended to be run on the road at all. Based on the claim that they make a bunch of noise at low speeds, they're going to be full-blown race pads intended to give you close to CCB performance at the track, and you'd continue running the regular pads on the street.

At the track, CCBs definitely do not last forever. As for the breakeven point, on the F10 M5, a pair of front steel rotors costs $1002. A pair of CCB fronts costs $6346. And as someone who's talked with multiple people who track using CCBs on several different types of cars, let me tell you that CCBs don't last anywhere near 6x as long as steel -- usually they don't even last twice as long.

Sorry, there's just no way to construe CCBs as a good value proposition. If you stay on the road, you've already prepaid for so many brake jobs by getting CCB that you're unlikely to break even in the car's lifetime. And on a track car CCB's don't meaningfully outlive their steel counterparts despite costing a whole lot more, so you're actually behind on value in that setting -- and that's assuming you don't ever prematurely destroy a rotor by nicking it with off-track debris or during a wheel change.
Agreed. So these are the facts as we have them:

That the CCB with track use will not last the life of the car and will result in a higher overall expense.

However, CCB with street use will last the life of the car. Steel rotors with performance pads with street use will approach the cost of CCB over the course of their life, assuming 6years+ (whether someone would use performance pads for street use is a different story).

Steel rotors and regular pads will, over 6 years, defray some of the cost of the CCB expenditure. Again, we can argue about how much of that cost is defrayed, but it is a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
and that's assuming you don't ever prematurely destroy a rotor by nicking it with off-track debris or during a wheel change.
Again, how many M5/6 CCB users have had this happen? None that I know of. While a fact, it's also a fact that people die on the highway from incidents that aren't their fault, yet this highly unlikely occurrence is not enough to make me cower at home under my mattress my entire life. Same with the theoretical chip off the CCB rotors.
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      04-13-2014, 09:41 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absoluteis350 View Post
Agreed. So these are the facts as we have them:

That the CCB with track use will not last the life of the car and will result in a higher overall expense.

However, CCB with street use will last the life of the car. Steel rotors with performance pads with street use will approach the cost of CCB over the course of their life, assuming 6years+ (whether someone would use performance pads for street use is a different story).

Steel rotors and regular pads will, over 6 years, defray some of the cost of the CCB expenditure. Again, we can argue about how much of that cost is defrayed, but it is a fact.


Again, how many M5/6 CCB users have had this happen? None that I know of. While a fact, it's also a fact that people die on the highway from incidents that aren't their fault, yet this highly unlikely occurrence is not enough to make me cower at home under my mattress my entire life. Same with the theoretical chip off the CCB rotors.
Again, you're assuming that people will run performance pads with their steel brakes on the road, and that's just not a fair assumption. The interview clearly indicates that they would be annoying and wasteful to run in that setting, just as any race pads are.

Using M5/6 prices again, if we assume that steel rotors last 50K under street-only driving (not unreasonable, and the rears probably last longer) and that replacing all four steel rotors would cost $2K (probably costs less since rears are smaller), then in order to break even on the $8K CCB option, you'd need to drive the car 250K miles (original factory set plus paying for four new sets of rotors). If the CCB rotors last THAT long (pretty unlikely), then yes I suppose if you will drive your car 250K miles, you can finally say that you broke even. But you'd be waiting a lot longer than 6 years.

As for the rotor chipping, I expect few have had that happen because few M5/6 owners go to the track. But on an M3 where lots of people who track them also have a dedicated set of wheels and tires for the track, it becomes much more likely. But that's also moot because as I just said, the value proposition just isn't there even if that never happens to the owner.
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      04-13-2014, 09:57 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absoluteis350 View Post
Yes, a performance pad, that, even in BMWs own words, will result in you changing out your discs every time you change your pads..
You know that's a ridiculous statement by BMW, right? How many people who track their cars change out their rotors everytime they put a track compound pad on? Almost none. These pads won't be any different.

A track compound will wear your rotors down faster, no one is arguing that. But the deposits left by the track compound can be removed with a normal bedding procedure. Again, just like everyone does now after changing pads out after the track. These pads are not some new, special technology.

Unless you're tracking your car almost every other weekend, there is no way a sane person can argue that the CCBs are a cost saving purchase.
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      04-13-2014, 10:00 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Again, you're assuming that people will run performance pads with their steel brakes on the road, and that's just not a fair assumption. The interview clearly indicates that they would be annoying and wasteful to run in that setting, just as any race pads are.

Using M5/6 prices again, if we assume that steel rotors last 50K under street-only driving (not unreasonable, and the rears probably last longer) and that replacing all four steel rotors would cost $2K (probably costs less since rears are smaller), then in order to break even on the $8K CCB option, you'd need to drive the car 250K miles (original factory set plus paying for four new sets of rotors). If the CCB rotors last THAT long (pretty unlikely), then yes I suppose if you will drive your car 250K miles, you can finally say that you broke even. But you'd be waiting a lot longer than 6 years.

As for the rotor chipping, I expect few have had that happen because few M5/6 owners go to the track. But on an M3 where lots of people who track them also have a dedicated set of wheels and tires for the track, it becomes much more likely. But that's also moot because as I just said, the value proposition just isn't there even if that never happens to the owner.
I agree with you mostly. But its not about breaking even or a value proposition, its about defraying the initial expenditure to a level where its worth it (different for each individual).

My point is simply that its not an $8k investment over time, its less than that, potentially lots less than that. Maybe its only a $4k investment plus saved time from going to a shop/dealer for each brake job (rotors not pads). Anyway, its not as simple as a flat $8k. For added benefits already mentioned in the article (plus no dust). Again, valued differently for different people. I don't think anyone is saying CCB is cheaper.

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      04-13-2014, 10:01 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powaup View Post
That was some awesome reading material. CCBs last as long as the car will?! Crazy, thought you had to switch them out at 30k miles. If BMW did not offer maintenance program on the stock ones then CCBs would be much more valuable

As someone else mentioned I would consider them for $4k
I read in many posts that CCBs are not covered by maintenance. I see no mention anywhere on the website that it is not covered. I think it used to say in small print for the M5 CCB option, but that has been removed. I also don't see how BMW can refuse to change them even if you track the car. These cars supposed to be made for occasional tracking.
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