F80 M3 vs. B8 S4

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by jlh335i

Contrarian? Twisting facts? Haha whatever you say man.

Well to some degree you are muddying the waters here. You came into this discussion and started adding components that had nothing to do with the discussion (...the latter being a behavioral trait of gee-m-w). The core of the discussion was a comparison of the S4 and the M3 from a performance standpoint, not marketing materials, pedestrian driving habits, global warming or my grandmother's dentures.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by jlh335i

Well the whole s4 vs m3 thing is to me, 5 second delta around that top gear track is a huge difference... so that comparison never existed imo.

But the V8 through the speakers is a joke about bmw playing exhaust/engine notes thru the stereo.

And the analogy i made of the new M being a further developed 335i is not about the lap times, it is about the direct similarity in drivetrain (tt i6) with the application of new tech and features. By M appointments i was referring to tweaked suspension, rear diff, body work, tuning, and (hopefully i imagine this goes without saying) a cooling system that is actually effective on the track.

The top gear track is more of a large format autocross. I wouldn't equate it to any normal 13 turn, 2.5 circuit like most of the tracks we walk about in the United States.

I agree that the M3 times will build on or derive from the 335i.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

The top gear track is more of a large format autocross. I wouldn't equate it to any normal 13 turn, 2.5 circuit like most of the tracks we walk about in the United States.

I agree that the M3 times will build on or derive from the 335i.

Either way the S4 loses (...be it 5 seconds or 20 seconds), so just stop trying to equate its performance to that of an M3. Your car is equivalent to a 335i. Nothing more!

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by Chill72

You did not drive it on the track or at all. You are just a keyboard racer, keep things in perspective.

Yes, my brakes turned blue and heat checked from driving to work. Probably because 101% of the weight is over the front wheels.

[Sedan_Clan]

For once.....READ WHAT IS BEING SAID TO YOU. He was referring to the RS5 in your "crown gear" example. Geez you are a nincompoop.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Either way the S4 loses (...be it 5 seconds or 20 seconds), so just stop trying to equate its performance to that of an M3. Your car is equivalent to a 335i. Nothing more!

If an M3 is a tuned 335i and an S4 is a tuned S4 are they equivalent? Asking for a friend.

[drob23]

Comparing the B8 S4 to the f80 M3 from a performance standpoint on a track is silly if your metric is "lap time", which is generally *the* metric lol...the new M3 will wipe it's ass with the S4, not even close.

I think the crux of most of West's posts on the subject is: "is the f80 M3 $20k better than the B8 S4", which is based on his bare bones S4 and the heavy options + lack of discount he expects to get on the M3 (which is pure speculation).

Honestly, it's a stupid debate to begin with because none of these purchases are "value" propositions, and any objective comparison is heavily influenced by personal bias (he says "I need carbon brakes and LED headlights"). He further muddles the debate by talking about how "there is no difference between them on the track because everyone is learning" or "nominal weight distribution means nothing because it is sprung and will change as you drive" or (fill in blank with other random point).

You guys just have to stop taking him so seriously...

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

If an M3 is a tuned 335i and an S4 is a tuned S4 are they equivalent? Asking for a friend.

Dude! What are you talking about? My point was referencing THE LAP TIMES.

[gee-m-w]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

For once.....READ WHAT IS BEING SAID TO YOU. He was referring to the RS5 in your "crown gear" example. Geez you are a nincompoop.

OK I want to make sure I have it straight. The assertion is I go there plenty, but of all the times I've only ever driven my own car. There has never been an opportunity to drive another car, either to show someone something about their own vehicle or to demo a car owned by a dealer or factory.

You guys crack me up. You act like I've never sat behind the wheel of an M car. I'll take one out next weekend just to make sure I'm not missing anything. There's a 2010 E90 M3 sedan I can get my hands on for a few laps.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by drob23

Comparing the B8 S4 to the f80 M3 from a performance standpoint on a track is silly if your metric is "lap time", which is generally *the* metric lol...the new M3 will wipe it's ass with the S4, not even close.

I think the crux of most of West's posts on the subject is: "is the f80 M3 $20k better than the B8 S4", which is based on his bare bones S4 and the heavy options + lack of discount he expects to get on the M3 (which is pure speculation).

Honestly, it's a stupid debate to begin with because none of these purchases are "value" propositions, and any objective comparison is heavily influenced by personal bias (he says "I need carbon brakes and LED headlights"). He further muddles the debate by talking about how "there is no difference between them on the track because everyone is learning" or "nominal weight distribution means nothing because it is sprung and will change as you drive" or (fill in blank with other random point).

You guys just have to stop taking him so serious...

I think I'm finally understanding your closing point. You cannot reason with the unreasonable.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

The top gear track is more of a large format autocross. I wouldn't equate it to any normal 13 turn, 2.5 circuit like most of the tracks we walk about in the United States.

I agree that the M3 times will build on or derive from the 335i.

And Hockenheim is also a large format autocross I guess...

I'll give you one thing You provide good entertainment with your posts around here

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

OK I want to make sure I have it straight. The assertion is I go there plenty, but of all the times I've only ever driven my own car. There has never been an opportunity to drive another car, either to show someone something about their own vehicle or to demo a car owned by a dealer or factory.

You guys crack me up. You act like I've never sat behind the wheel of an M car. I'll take one out next weekend just to make sure I'm not missing anything. There's a 2010 E90 M3 sedan I can get my hands on for a few laps.

Still not getting that they are talking about your claimed track excursion in the RS5

[drob23]

Originally Posted by gee-m-w

If an M3 is a tuned 335i and an S4 is a tuned S4 are they equivalent? Asking for a friend.

And BTW, the M3 is far from a "tuned" version of a 335i when it comes to the track. You of all people should know. Maybe the engine is based on the same block, and the car based on the same chassis, but that's where the comparison stops.

- Solid link suspension;
- At least 300 lbs lighter;
- Active rear differential (same as audi sports diff);
- Much stiffer chassis (which you complain about with your S4);
- Twin-turbo with higher revving internal and extra 100 HP;
- Option for double-clutch box (much better than audi S4 offering);
- Bigger brake kit properly setup for track;
- Lightweight driveline tech;
- Added cooling infrastructure;

You've already modded your S4 with revo 100 tune, APR front cooling system, BBK, milltek exhaust, full EC suspension upgrade, adjustable control arms..and had your "achievement unlocked" alignment of -3 deg of camber. So you have easily spent 10k on all those "upgrades", not including your $200/hr pro race shop installation, and bet your car hangs with stock e90 M3 on the track, but the f80 will be another animal.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by drob23

And BTW, the M3 is far from a "tuned" version of a 335i when it comes to the track. You of all people should know. Maybe the engine is based on the same block, and the car based on the same chassis, but that's where the comparison stops.

- Solid link suspension;
- At least 300 lbs lighter;
- Active rear differential (same as audi sports diff);
- Much stiffer chassis (which you complain about with your S4);
- Twin-turbo with higher revving internal and extra 100 HP;
- Option for double-clutch box (much better than audi S4 offering);
- Bigger brake kit properly setup for track;
- Lightweight driveline tech;
- Added cooling infrastructure;

You've already modded your S4 with revo 100 tune, APR front cooling system, BBK, milltek exhaust, full EC suspension upgrade, adjustable control arms..and had your "achievement unlocked" alignment of -3 deg of camber. So you have easily spent 10k on all those "upgrades", not including your $200/hr pro race shop installation, and bet your car hangs with stock e90 M3 on the track, but the f80 will be another animal.

All that and the lowly E36 M3 is still spanking him. Hilarious stuff!

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by jlh335i

And the analogy i made of the new M being a further developed 335i is not about the lap times, it is about the direct similarity in drivetrain (tt i6) with the application of new tech and features. By M appointments i was referring to tweaked suspension, rear diff, body work, tuning, and (hopefully i imagine this goes without saying) a cooling system that is actually effective on the track.

"Tweaked" suspension? The car has a uniquely wider track f+r for one thing.
"Tuning"? Read up on the S55 vs N55 differences.

Since analogies are the rage: A Carrera 2 isn't a GT3.

Drob23- great posts and advice.