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      12-17-2020, 08:43 AM   #287
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I think that part of the argument here is that how dragy computes 3 percent slope and how other devices like vbox or TRC app, is very very different. On my dragy app, 3 percent slope is literally straight downhill. And when I say downhill, I mean there's maybe one spot I have ever seen that is that declined on a highway.

So far with my testing on the same night, I ran a 6.6 with a passenger going down a -2.4 slope. That same night I ran a 7.0 going down a -.7 slope.

I do agree that being slightly invalid like -1.3 (well, dragy invalid) does not play a role really in the times. However, I think the 3 percent rule is the forum standard because of other devices used to compute the times. Dragy 3 percent down and vbox 3 percent down is not the same I believe.

I think most here are just posting their valid dragy runs.

I could get on my 6.5 running set up, go to that hill I mentioned, and bust out a 6.2-6.3. Which, I can try next time I am down there to show the thread. However, It wouldn't feel right posting that as -3% dragy invalid is an outrageously steep hill.
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      12-17-2020, 10:21 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twistm4 View Post
I think that part of the argument here is that how dragy computes 3 percent slope and how other devices like vbox or TRC app, is very very different. On my dragy app, 3 percent slope is literally straight downhill. And when I say downhill, I mean there's maybe one spot I have ever seen that is that declined on a highway.

So far with my testing on the same night, I ran a 6.6 with a passenger going down a -2.4 slope. That same night I ran a 7.0 going down a -.7 slope.

I do agree that being slightly invalid like -1.3 (well, dragy invalid) does not play a role really in the times. However, I think the 3 percent rule is the forum standard because of other devices used to compute the times. Dragy 3 percent down and vbox 3 percent down is not the same I believe.

I think most here are just posting their valid dragy runs.

I could get on my 6.5 running set up, go to that hill I mentioned, and bust out a 6.2-6.3. Which, I can try next time I am down there to show the thread. However, It wouldn't feel right posting that as -3% dragy invalid is an outrageously steep hill.
In the USA, by the time you finish middle school, you have been taught the slope calculation. Remember?

y=mx+b
- or -
"the rise over the run"

Slope is a very simple calculation. It's defined as the change of height divided by the change of distance (times 100 if you want a percent).

Example:
Starting altitude = 465 feet, starting distance = 800 feet.
Ending altitude = 435 feet, ending distance = 1800 feet.

Slope = (465 - 435) / (1800 - 800)
Slope = -30 / 1000
Slope = -0.03
Slope% = -0.03 * 100
Slope% = -3.0%

It's that simple.

If you are correct that Draggy does NOT use this very well known and simple calculation, then you are literally arguing that Draggy cannot be trusted and should be immediately removed from all web sites that use it and their times removed. There is no middle ground here: if Draggy is wrong on slope, then all Draggy times must be removed from all car forums that use it.

Until somebody can verify that both a vBox and Draggy produce the same results, then I think the safest course of action is to remove all Draggy times from the "Official" list and place them in a "to be verified" list, or some other type of list that is less trusted. Like I said: if you're right, then Draggy times must be removed from all official lists on all car forums.
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      12-17-2020, 11:10 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Twistm4 View Post
I think that part of the argument here is that how dragy computes 3 percent slope and how other devices like vbox or TRC app, is very very different. On my dragy app, 3 percent slope is literally straight downhill. And when I say downhill, I mean there's maybe one spot I have ever seen that is that declined on a highway.

So far with my testing on the same night, I ran a 6.6 with a passenger going down a -2.4 slope. That same night I ran a 7.0 going down a -.7 slope.

I do agree that being slightly invalid like -1.3 (well, dragy invalid) does not play a role really in the times. However, I think the 3 percent rule is the forum standard because of other devices used to compute the times. Dragy 3 percent down and vbox 3 percent down is not the same I believe.

I think most here are just posting their valid dragy runs.

I could get on my 6.5 running set up, go to that hill I mentioned, and bust out a 6.2-6.3. Which, I can try next time I am down there to show the thread. However, It wouldn't feel right posting that as -3% dragy invalid is an outrageously steep hill.
I'm curious what is this secret calculation Dragy uses to measure slope? LOL, until someone can prove that the way dragy measures slope is "very very different" then Vbox or any other tool, it's nothing more than a gut feeling. Everything you and properstyle are saying here was said years ago when the list first started. It doesn't matter what you feel, data is what matters. Thank God someone like Green Eggs is taking the time to post here.

The main reason I added "dragy" at the end of each entry is so people know, if you think they're invalid then that's your right. If you want me to be honest here, you claiming that you ran a 6.58 on stock turbos with only 23psi is really hard to believe, lol, I'm not sure why more here aren't questioning that, I mean it's a WR time on stock turbos @ 23psi??

Again, PROVE that dragy measures slope differently, with real data or a statement from Dragy, or how it measures anything for that matter, if it does then I'll remove the dragy times from the list. Until then the list will have the same rules it always has. There's always going to be outliers, I mean look at your time at 23psi? There are all kinds of things that affect the results, DA, traction, weather, etc. So should we make rules for those things as well?

My advice is to just let it go, until you or anyone else can prove Dragy uses some incredibly different way of measuring slope that's better than the calculation that everyone else in the world uses.
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      12-17-2020, 11:41 AM   #290
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I'm not the one arguing I'm simply stating I think most people understand that dragy -3 is a massive hill. And that all those times are dragy valid (less than 1 percent) like mine.

It requires less than a 1 percent slope to be considered valid. Most only post valid runs, not going downhill to milk it. Totally respect the time rules and guidelines and I agree that it should remain consistent. Looking at the times here VS Facebook or the dragy leaderboard pages, I'd say all dragy submissions are indeed considered "dragy valid" which means it does not exceed a 1 percent decline.

I'm gonna try to get one at a -2.4 to report back. My goal is 6.2 to 6.3 I would be ecstatic!

P.S. I think you're confusing me with the other guy that was arguing. I think the list is great and well validated. Also, feel free to add my dragy samuphil if you want to check progress, or would like to view the 6.58 log. My main focus is 1/4 mile so I'm hoping to get back on the track first thing in the spring.

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      12-17-2020, 01:54 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twistm4 View Post
I'm not the one arguing I'm simply stating I think most people understand that dragy -3 is a massive hill.
Two people who provided no data or proof does not equal "most people." Until this thread, I've never even heard this before...and like DLSJ5, I've been doing this for +10 years.

Bring data, that's the only way to move this discussion forward.
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      12-17-2020, 04:34 PM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twistm4 View Post
I'm not the one arguing I'm simply stating I think most people understand that dragy -3 is a massive hill. And that all those times are dragy valid (less than 1 percent) like mine.

It requires less than a 1 percent slope to be considered valid. Most only post valid runs, not going downhill to milk it. Totally respect the time rules and guidelines and I agree that it should remain consistent. Looking at the times here VS Facebook or the dragy leaderboard pages, I'd say all dragy submissions are indeed considered "dragy valid" which means it does not exceed a 1 percent decline.

I'm gonna try to get one at a -2.4 to report back. My goal is 6.2 to 6.3 I would be ecstatic!

P.S. I think you're confusing me with the other guy that was arguing. I think the list is great and well validated. Also, feel free to add my dragy samuphil if you want to check progress, or would like to view the 6.58 log. My main focus is 1/4 mile so I'm hoping to get back on the track first thing in the spring.
I have yet to use Dragy, I stopped doing endless 60-130 runs after being pulled over going at a speed far higher than what I was ticketed for, I promised the wife I'd stop.

But I have not seen or know of any concrete evidence that Dragy is different from Vbox, except that it's far more user friendly, and that is a good thing, but they both do exactly the same thing.

My good friend and long time enthusiast Longboarder has done more performance runs, tests, than just about anyone I can think of. I spoke to him today, initially way back he was skeptical of Dragy's accuracy compared to the proven accuracy of Vbox, but after doing several tests, runs, etc. using both at the same time, his results are consistent, they are identical in their results, this includes the slope %.

Dragy is an awesome tool, and that community on FB has grown, they have their own rules of -1%, nothing wrong with that at all! But I'm not going to change a decade old rule with thousands of entries simply because two passionate enthusiasts, who both own a WR time BTW, don't agree with it. FWIW Dragy did not invent this list, or the idea, but more power to them for taking someone's idea and creating a tool that is very easy to use.

For me personally my best times never had a huge slope, I would say that most times don't. Within the rules in place for over a decade, times are far more affected by traction, weather, # of shifts, DA, altitude, than slope.
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      12-17-2020, 05:04 PM   #293
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So if a run is invalid on dragy but less than a -3% slope it can still be submitted correct?
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      12-17-2020, 09:16 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twistm4 View Post
So if a run is invalid on dragy but less than a -3% slope it can still be submitted correct?
Yes, that is correct. I had the exact question a few pages back. I noticed a guy submitted an "invalid" Dragy run, so I asked why it was accepted. Then they explained the 3% rule.
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      12-17-2020, 10:39 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Twistm4 View Post
So if a run is invalid on dragy but less than a -3% slope it can still be submitted correct?
Yes, it all got started in post 264 when Properstyle claimed a bogus run that had already been accepted. That's how this all got started.

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=264

But now we can finish it. We have Longboarder who has compared Dragy with vBox and noted they are identical, even on slope. So that should end that discussion: Dragy doesn't do anything stupid with a calculation that is not valid itself.
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      12-18-2020, 09:48 AM   #296
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That's my run that was questioned, which was within our allowed slope. Sorry I live up in the hills...

Even though I frame up my pic for displaying the time in the center I still keep the "invalid" in the corner for honesty. Soon as I can get on a warm road I'll back my 6.99 up with a valid Dragy (which is my target anyways). Hopefully I can pull a 6.96.

I've spoken with Dan (swifty) on IG and he's aware I'm working with F80Paul and going after his 60-130 record for stick shift with stock engine/turbos/fueling. I give him awesome respect when he said he supports me and gave advice for improving my times.
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      12-18-2020, 12:29 PM   #297
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That's my run that was questioned, which was within our allowed slope. Sorry I live up in the hills...

Even though I frame up my pic for displaying the time in the center I still keep the "invalid" in the corner for honesty. Soon as I can get on a warm road I'll back my 6.99 up with a valid Dragy (which is my target anyways). Hopefully I can pull a 6.96.

I've spoken with Dan (swifty) on IG and he's aware I'm working with F80Paul and going after his 60-130 record for stick shift with stock engine/turbos/fueling. I give him awesome respect when he said he supports me and gave advice for improving my times.
I believe the stock turbo 6MT 60-130 record is nowadays 6.5/6..
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      12-18-2020, 12:41 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie View Post
I believe the stock turbo 6MT 60-130 record is nowadays 6.5/6..
Where can I look to find out for sure? Guys on Dragy rarely indicate DCT or 6MT.
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      12-18-2020, 09:15 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by TopJimmy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie View Post
I believe the stock turbo 6MT 60-130 record is nowadays 6.5/6..
Where can I look to find out for sure? Guys on Dragy rarely indicate DCT or 6MT.
One of FB F8X group. Definitely a couple guys down to 6.5/6..
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      12-18-2020, 09:27 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by ///BMW Junkie View Post
One of FB F8X group. Definitely a couple guys down to 6.5/6..
Okay, thanks (crud). I saw Malek's 6.56 on Dragy but didn't see 6MT in his post or garage. I saw a twin disc clutch mentioned and thought he had a DCT.

Now I need to pull a solid 6.55 to get that gold star... Still gonna try!
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      12-19-2020, 05:19 PM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green-Eggs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
The difference between no slope and 3 percent is over half a second.
It's definitely nowhere near "over 1/2 second." I had the owner of vboxtools.com search the database for a 60-130 that's nearly identical to yours, but also has a -3% slope. Then I had him resubmit the results using the timestamp correction feature.

Before:
http://www.perfdb.org/vBoxFiles/ID00...060-130MPH.jpg

With timestamp correction:
http://www.perfdb.org/vBoxFiles/ID00...060-130MPH.jpg

Difference: 0.203 seconds (nowhere near "more than 1/2 second."

Quote:
If that's doesn't seem like a problem when measuring ability to complete times something is wrong. The faster you go the more that negative slope of 3 percent actually assist your run. I don't have to submit files to see that as I've visual watched it happen. When I broke in to the 6s 60-130 I ran a 6.9 no slope. For shits and giggles on the same road just 1/4 mile earlier at the same air intake them during the same night. I hit the down hill that was 2.4 slope and cut a 6.4. Why people seem to think that's a small amount I have no clue. If you were seeing a 11.0 and 10.5 run down a drag strip the difference is multiple car lengths. If you would like I'll go take a photo and video of that road you can with out question see difference in height even at night. But as said not my thread I won't belabor the point.
It's not a problem because those are the rules. You don't get to change the rules to suit your own runs. Since you already know where that -2.4% slope is, I'll bet you've already run that same spot with your new setup and didn't break 1/2 second off your time. If you had, I'll bet you would have posted it here because you already know it's a valid time according to the rules in play here.

Your comparison on the same night is irrelevant. I ran 12 consecutive back-to-back 60-130 runs on the same F82, all within 20 minutes, all on a perfectly flat road, and I saw nearly 1/2 second difference on a flat road on back-to-back runs.

Run #2: 10.791s @ -0.242% slope.
Run #6: 11.242s @ -0.385% slope (more slope, nearly 1/2 worse time)

My second best time of the day was 10.808 seconds, and it ran slightly uphill. So your comparison is totally invalid because the variance can be greater than 1/2 second even on the same flat road at the same exact time.

If you want a better time, go play by the rules, beat your own time, and resubmit your results.
Well your bet is actually very incorrect. To start my -1.24 decline run was a 5.84 clearly over a tenth faster than my 5.97 flat hill run. Second even in the video of the run you can see the decline in the road even at that little slope. You can see my name on bmw 60-130 and see the video posted.

When I want a better time I improve my car. I make make adjustments to my suspension or ask for more timing with meth to try new things. I have enough draggy runs to reproduce this thread. This is not a comment from some who did two runs and is complaining about someone being faster. The guy I replied to is no where near more time and if we ran on street would be difference of several car lengths.

I did not change any rules or try to change them I reply to the person post saying they have never gotten a valid run on their draggy. I stated the reason is the over -1% decline of their run. You can see it's says invalid in the top right hand corner or did you miss that? I gave him the explanation. It had nothing to do with the list but the fact someone said none of there runs in draggy were valid and I explained why. .


In a draggy you can see where the slope started and even look at the rate of acceleration through out the run. While most look at the end number I look at the increments of change down to even looking at 60-90 vs 60-80 and it's time difference.


If your 60-130 times while having the same ait on flat road change that much you either suck at driving or have the wolds crappiest tires. Unless you did something that would make no sense like repeating hit the car run right after run with no cool down time at which cause it pulling damn timing. I generally log my car with my draggy as well and go back and compare the change down to timing changes at rpm and gear. So much so to know that a s65 looses its ability to hit peak timing after 85 degree ait.

My 300zx with a 2jz a 6spd manual car I ran multiple times last night 4.91 4.88 4.95 4.96 all .4 to .8 inclined In 47 degree weather on 305/35 r888r.

The only runs where this time changed by over 2 tenths of a second were when a incline was introduced at over 1 percent grade. A 2.38 incline resulted in a 5.27 60-130.

I have not nor will I ever post a more then -1 slope as first ( on draggy it is a invalid run) two when I make post I want people to see the capability of a non assisted car.

Their are multiple calculators that show corrected times when you remove slope. -3 slope Is huge difference in time. Gravity doesn't suddenly change and physics don't lie.
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      12-19-2020, 10:18 PM   #302
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Thats a badass m3 lol.
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      12-19-2020, 11:56 PM   #303
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I delete all invalid runs from Dragy.
Best valid time I ran so far is 6.05 @ -.52 (8800DA 64•)
Best invalid time was 5.68 @ -2.92 (8600DA 64•)

Both runs was done same day while dataloging.
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      12-20-2020, 12:10 AM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4Viper View Post
I delete all invalid runs from Dragy.
Best valid time I ran so far is 6.05 @ -.52 (8800DA 64•)
Best invalid time was 5.68 @ -2.92 (8600DA 64•)

Both runs was done same day while dataloging.
Funny enough the slope correction calculator for zie damn near matches your times lol.
5.68 with a -2.9 slope when you remove the slope to show estimate of what you would run on a flat surface is comes out to 6.03 lol

Regardless that is freaking rolling to do that is such high da man. Holy crap.
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      12-20-2020, 12:40 AM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Properstyle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M4Viper View Post
I delete all invalid runs from Dragy.
Best valid time I ran so far is 6.05 @ -.52 (8800DA 64•)
Best invalid time was 5.68 @ -2.92 (8600DA 64•)

Both runs was done same day while dataloging.
Funny enough the slopp correct calculator for zie actual matches your times lol.
5.68 with a -2.9 slope when you remove the slope to show estimate of what you would run on a flat surface is comes out to 6.03 lol
I do agree that -3% slope is quite steep.
Yes, every .1 of a second is roughly 1 car length.
In this case .5 second difference is gaptism.

I haven't try VBox and not planning to, but will not discredit VBox runs with their -3% slope. That's their parameter so it's all good.

Bruh your Z is a straight 🚀.
Unfortunately I have to work harder to get a lower time at my altitude 😔
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      12-20-2020, 11:54 AM   #306
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Not to stir anything up or debate anyone's argument here, but I think we shouldn't over analyze draggy as "the ultimate precision tool". I got the draggy in August and I have YET to get 1 valid time. Apparently I only drive down hills every road I go lol

Also, when shooting my 1/4 times vs Draggy videos, every single one shows I'm going down hill and "invalid" at the track. See below.

Sorry, but I'll take my paper time slips as the ultimate measurement as I KNOW the track is as valid as it gets.
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      12-20-2020, 12:08 PM   #307
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That's gotta be one of the funniest signatures I've seen on the forums
I was thinking the same. Stood out to me, and I too am a member.
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      12-20-2020, 01:33 PM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4Viper View Post
I delete all invalid runs from Dragy.
Best valid time I ran so far is 6.05 @ -.52 (8800DA 64•)
Best invalid time was 5.68 @ -2.92 (8600DA 64•)

Both runs was done same day while dataloging.
If you don't mind sharing, what's your setup?
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