M3/M4 or M2?

[solstice]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Your statement actually reminded me that the M2 chassis code is F87 which means it's an F8x too. I'm sure you know that already, but now that it is here for real we may find more confusion arises from the use of the term "F8x" as a reference to the current generation M3 and M4.

Technically this problem has been with us since the release of the F85 X5 M and F86 X6 M, but those rarely come up in conversation in the M3/M4 forum, and usually context makes it obvious we are not talking about SUVs anyway.

I guess F8x (0 <= x <= 3; x != 1) is probably too geeky even for an enthusiast forum. I'll probably start writing "F8x M3/M4", assuming I can remember.

Not trying to single you out though. Just thinking out loud here.

Np, I didn't think of that but you are right. We need to retire a clean "F8X" as a reference to the M3 and M4 models. Soo now we need to spell it out F8X M3 & M4...

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by solstice

Np, I didn't think of that but you are right. We need to retire a clean "F8X" as a reference to the M3 and M4 models. Soo now we need to spell it out F8X M3 & M4...

Would be much shorter to just use F80, F82, or F87. You could use M2 or M4 as they are the firsts of their kinds but the M3 loses this battle!

[solstice]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Would be much shorter to just use F80, F82, or F87. You could use M2 or M4 as they are the firsts of their kinds but the M3 loses this battle!

But is it? You are forgetting the F83 which make it 9 letters to spell out vs 7 when using F8X M3,M4

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by solstice

But is it? You are forgetting the F83 which make it 9 letters to spell out vs 7 when using F8X M3,M4

I like to pretend the vert doesn't exist.

[gthal]

OK, call me crazy but I'm liking the M2

Yes, I know the M3/4 will be more capable, faster, true M engine, not a lot heavier and has the "correct" mirrors . But there is something about a small, wide, 6MT M2 that is appealing to me. Just for the more "go kart" nature of the smaller platform. My home track is short, tight and not a lot of long straights... the M2, I bet, would give my M4 a run for its money on that track. Not to mention I actually like the look of the M2 as it is short, wide and pretty aggressive looking.

I'm half thinking of buying one... maybe I'll buy one in the Spring instead of another M4 an put the $20,000 I save into a dedicated track car again Blasphemy, I know

[ASAP]

I have this personal vendetta against short wheelbase cars... having owned a 135 and previously a 335... there was a always a massive stability difference in the two with the 3 being a batter car overall. With that, I will never go below 3 again.

[FramingLogic]

Originally Posted by gearboxtrouble

The M3 has gotten faster, more refined, more sophisticated and much much more expensive each generation. The f8x is a straight up Porsche 911/Jaguar F type competitor to the point where BMW changed the coupe's branding to the M4 so that it could move on from the association with the e30/e36 generation cars. Sure, one can still squeeze a stripper M3 under the $70k mark but the vast majority of M3/4s are in the $75-85k range (including sales tax). There's a decent opportunity for a $50-60k car in the M range to be what the earlier M3's used to be. The M2 appears to be BMW's attempt at this.

It uses a modded N55 because the S55 would be too expensive. Its less powerful, has single turbo, a smaller bore (and slightly smaller capacity), an air/air intercooler and a lower redline. It doesn't use anything like the amount of carbon fiber and aluminium as the f8x so it weighs nearly the same as the M4. I'm sure a ~350hp S version of the N20 with all the S55 goodies applied to a smaller 4 cylinder would have saved some serious weight and made more sense but that would have required some R&D spend. In everything, there appears to be a lot of effort put into keeping the cost relatively low. The fact that it still offers 80-90% of the performance for 15-20k less makes it very impressive.

The 1M has gained a following but it was produced in extremely limited numbers for a niche. The M2 appears to be a much more serious mainstream effort built to test the sales potential in this segment. I'm sure there will be some small competition with stripper M3 sales but I don't think BMW minds that too much. The M3/4 will continue to move upmarket and the M2 will be the new entry level M car.

Sir you are on point with this. although I still would have given it a price tag of about 45k just thinking about what the e92 335i cost back then and now the F80/82, 45 seems solid.

[FramingLogic]

I personally love the sound, its so sad to admit that this car will possibly sound better than an m3/m4...

I always kinda disliked the front look of the 2 series and they really kept that in the m2...
yeah, the rear end is kinda bland, but that typical 2 series look, can't make it too much like an m3 without leaving the m1.

I am quite disappointed about the engine too though, a turbo inline 6 only making 350 hp....
I am just comparing to some of the V6 cars out there, I am sure this is very very under tuned and will have quite a bit of modding room, prob for something more like 450 if anything.

Thoughts?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Warranty P

No chance, M2 will not be limited. Too much R&R went into it to only make a few.

Is there a lot of extra cost though?

Press release reads to me like a raid was conducted on 235 and m3 parts bins

If that "top" spec n55 finds its way into x3m/x4m or x4 m40i that's even more cash saved by bmw.

positioning the parts bin special cheapest m to be "exclusive limited production car for purists who want a small car like e30 m3" is ///marketing at its best in my opinion

[redpriest]

M4 for me. M2 weight reduction seems pointless and it looks like a cost cut car - a starter M - the seats looks like they're straight out of 2007.

[W///]

Originally Posted by gthal

OK, call me crazy but I'm liking the M2

Yes, I know the M3/4 will be more capable, faster, true M engine, not a lot heavier and has the "correct" mirrors . But there is something about a small, wide, 6MT M2 that is appealing to me. Just for the more "go kart" nature of the smaller platform. My home track is short, tight and not a lot of long straights... the M2, I bet, would give my M4 a run for its money on that track. Not to mention I actually like the look of the M2 as it is short, wide and pretty aggressive looking.

I'm half thinking of buying one... maybe I'll buy one in the Spring instead of another M4 an put the $20,000 I save into a dedicated track car again Blasphemy, I know

Not blasphemy at all IMHO. My plan is to get an F80 next summer when the MY17 come out. Lease it for 3 years. If the M2 turns out to be THAT great, turn the lease in and get one of the last LCI M2's. Prices will be much calmer than they will be next spring.

If it's kind of good, but not the second coming of jesus, I'll buy the F80 after 3 years. Win win.

[FramingLogic]

http://customers.precision-sport.com..._BMWF82_04.jpg

do you really want an M2 when you can have this?

[W///]

Originally Posted by FramingLogic

http://customers.precision-sport.com..._BMWF82_04.jpg

do you really want an M2 when you can have this?

0 desire for an M4 actually...

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by doberzus

The M2 could have been so much more special... Coming from a 135I 6MT, I always dreamed of a lightweight(~3300lb or less) 2 door coupe with M handling and big power(torque) from the factory, with full warranty.

If the M2 would have had a CF roof(among other CF pieces,) would have had a slightly detuned S55(400bhp/390tq,) Special M seats with a lightweight/barebones interior, lightweight 18"s, and full interior/exterior color choices. It would have been an enthusiasts DREAM! I would have bought that for $65k no doubt, over the F80.

However, BMW didn't want to cut into the legendary M3's(also M4's) sales, which is understandable. But dammit, one can only dream of such a unicorn of a car from the factory.

I still can't get over the fact that it doesn't even have the M mirrors....

Sounds like you are just saying the F8X is too big. Argument should be to make the F8X smaller. The M2 is an intro M. it is meant to be below the m3/4 in both price and performance. It would be an insanely more capable car it were as you described but be much more expensive.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by W///

0 desire for an M4 actually...

Yeah, it is a very crappy, undesirable car

[car_fan]

Originally Posted by W///

Exactly. I think when you look at the M2 against it's competitors, it's good value (not talking about the GT350). Classic RWD, 6MT available and straight 6 at the front. It's a great recipe.

Like I said many times, I've driven the M235i and the M3/4 back to back on 3 different occasions and thought even that car had more character. Driven in isolation, the M3/4 has always been a fun car, although just huge. Cars like the M235i are what drew me to BMW's in the first place all those years ago.

But the reason I'm getting an F80 is because I don't need a 3rd coupe, and like the S55 a lot.

Made up your mind - no M2 aye all good you still have a nicely rounded stable

[W///]

Originally Posted by car_fan

Made up your mind - no M2 aye all good you still have a nicely rounded stable

Like I was telling my friend, I'm as decisive and patient as a 2 year old. I'm like F80, F80, F80. Then I see this and I'm like... F80? I think:

[doberzus]

Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes

Sounds like you are just saying the F8X is too big. Argument should be to make the F8X smaller. The M2 is an intro M. it is meant to be below the m3/4 in both price and performance. It would be an insanely more capable car it were as you described but be much more expensive.

Not saying the F80 is big at all, it's getting larger no doubt. I think of it as a midsize sedan and that's why I ordered one. From inside the cabin it doesn't feel quite as large as everyone makes it out to be.

Also the car I stated would be more expensive and I acknowledged that by saying I would pay $65-$70k for a capable car such as an M2 without factory restrictions.

One can only dream at this point.

[gearboxtrouble]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

They applied S55 goodies to the N55. Everyone saying it is just a N55, hasn't read the spec sheet.

The M2 N55 has S55 internals. Pistons, rings, crankshaft, main bearings, all carry over from the S55. Different from a standard N55 is an upgraded oil system for high g loads. Additional water radiator for extra cooling. Bespoke intake system. They could have very well used the S55 nomenclature, but as you know it is already taken.

To be honest I would rather have a N55 with all forged S55 internals than a highly strung 4-cylinder. This version of the N55 will be able to take a lot of power.


AutoExpress has gone on record saying the M2 will be limited numbers as well, they are claiming only 500 units for the UK.

A lot of people are not interested in the M3/M4 due to it's physical size. It is a large car. M2 is actually shorter than a E46 M3, but with a much wider track. They could have applied some more carbon technology to the car, to get the weight down. But then you start putting into a different price bracket. As it stands, according to BMW published US curb weights the M2 is 100lbs less that M3 and 90lbs less than M4.

I haven't heard about the S55 pistons carrying over, merely the arc sprayed lining. Sure the crankshaft and some of the bottom end carry over but the most important (and expensive) bits don't. The S55 is actually slightly larger than the N55 (and this version of it) because its been bored out to help it rev higher. It also has twin turbos and an air/water intercooler that lets it run at max boost whenever it wants (as opposed to using an overboost). I'm sure the M2 will be plenty of fun to drive but I seriously doubt its engine has more in common with the S55 than a regular N55.

[gearboxtrouble]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I guess that is dependent on the country. In Canada, E46 MSRP was $73500CAD in 2001, E92 MSRP was $71500CAD in 2008 and F82 MSRP was $75000CAD in 2014. If you factor inflation, my M3(4) are actually got less expensive with each generation .

It did in the US and Europe. You're forgetting how much ass the loonie kicked over that period (prior to its current difficulties). There were also major customs changes in Canada that brought car prices a lot closer to US prices.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gearboxtrouble

It did in the US and Europe. You're forgetting how much ass the loonie kicked over that period (prior to its current difficulties). There were also major customs changes in Canada that brought car prices a lot closer to US prices.

Googling a little, I found Car & Driver long term 2001 M3 had a base MSRP of $47,407USD.

Plugging that number in the US inflation calculator, and it comes out to $63,730 in 2015 USD. Indeed, very close the the F8X MSRP. While we might have had a price drop in Canada, you did not get much of an increase in the US. Further considering how much more equipment is now standard compared to 2001 .

[OrangeCrush]

Originally Posted by FramingLogic

http://customers.precision-sport.com..._BMWF82_04.jpg

do you really want an M2 when you can have this?

Are the rear panel flares an ///M performance add on that you have to purchase later?