Would you say getting an M car is a downgrade from a Porsche?

[paliknight]

Originally Posted by ItIsChrisM

It'll always depend...there's no universal "M car is a downgrade" and vice versa.

I'd never ever give up my M for a Boxster, Cayman, 718, etc. but would I swap it for a Turbo or GT3? Hells yea. But then for the $$$ you're even beyond M GTS territory and it's not a fair comparison (I'd still take the GT3).

But for the price + value, M cars will run circles around P cars all day.

This exactly. /thread

[jim996]

I test drove the 718s after buying my M4 and it wasn't even close. The M4 wins hands down. If I were going to change it it would have to be for a 911 and probably a minimum of an S spec rather than the basic carerra.

I used to own a 996 Carrera 2 and loved it but agree that the M4 is a sports coupe rather than a true "sports" car

[996ttelise]

911 is much more enjoyable to drive (sports car v. family truckster with engine and suspension mods) and an all around better car. Heck, a 911 is much more comfortable than an F8X, better seats, better driving position, better steering, better pedal feel, much smoother and better handling, better rotation and feels much better at the limits and when exceeding the limits. Mechanically, they are really just not even in the same class.

I had the local BMW tuner extraordinaire who did the suspension on my F80 install springs on my wife's 997.2. He took on the project even though he had not and does not really work on Porsche 997s. Afterward, he commented on the higher Porsche quality and how everything is so much lighter weight that Porsche uses and my wife's car is a crappy base C2 cabriolet with non PASM.

Looks are entirely subjective. I think the F80 4 door is very a cool car where there are just not many cool 4 door options. The M4, however, just does not compete in the coupe market to me if someone steps up and spends a little more. The focus on outright numbers, especially best case scenarios which are atypical for most purchasing these cars, is silly.

When I was high school many years ago, I scanned the back of the magazines, looked for the best 0-60 times and that was the car I wanted. Now, after having driven and owned just about everything cool made, I could give a hoot less out silly statistics. Porsches and even Ferraris have never been about outright statistics on paper which is perhaps why they underestimate their mfg performance numbers. Those that can purchase and drive this stuff know better.

I all but stopped driving my F80 and would get into and drive even a base 997.2 or 991 9.5 times out of 10 (maybe even 9.9) with both in the garage and when getting in the F80 was really wanting to drive something else in my garage but doing because weather or just needing to drive it since I am spending money on it.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by Nothing

I'm sure it's an all encompassing statement. 911 is a catch all for any 911 that isn't a Turbo, GT2 or GT3.

Ahhh. Thanks for thank. As you can see, I'm still learning all the terminology and designations.

[REDEV217342]

My question is... why does it matter? If it excites you, get it.

I never quite understood people that buy cars based upon what others think. I buy them for me...no one else

I had my E92M3 and sold it to try the Nissan GTR and I had people at work say to me "I can't believe you sold a BMW for a Nissan?".....my reply was "sure did" with a smile and said nothing more. I can't help people's ignorance nor do I give two shits about what they think.

[Spike Spiegel]

Originally Posted by REDEV217342

My question is... why does it matter? If it excites you, get it.

I never quite understood people that buy cars based upon what others think. I buy them for me...no one else

I had my E92M3 and sold it to try the Nissan GTR and I had people at work say to me "I can't believe you sold a BMW for a Nissan?".....my reply was "sure did" with a smile and said nothing more. I can't help people's ignorance nor do I give two shits about what they think.

What did you like/Don't like about it?

[Jaymax85]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

911 is much more enjoyable to drive (sports car v. family truckster with engine and suspension mods) and an all around better car. Heck, a 911 is much more comfortable than an F8X, better seats, better driving position, better steering, better pedal feel, much smoother and better handling, better rotation and feels much better at the limits and when exceeding the limits. Mechanically, they are really just not even in the same class.

I had the local BMW tuner extraordinaire who did the suspension on my F80 install springs on my wife's 997.2. He took on the project even though he had not and does not really work on Porsche 997s. Afterward, he commented on the higher Porsche quality and how everything is so much lighter weight that Porsche uses and my wife's car is a crappy base C2 cabriolet with non PASM.

Looks are entirely subjective. I think the F80 4 door is very a cool car where there are just not many cool 4 door options. The M4, however, just does not compete in the coupe market to me if someone steps up and spends a little more. The focus on outright numbers, especially best case scenarios which are atypical for most purchasing these cars, is silly.

When I was high school many years ago, I scanned the back of the magazines, looked for the best 0-60 times and that was the car I wanted. Now, after having driven and owned just about everything cool made, I could give a hoot less out silly statistics. Porsches and even Ferraris have never been about outright statistics on paper which is perhaps why they underestimate their mfg performance numbers. Those that can purchase and drive this stuff know better.

I all but stopped driving my F80 and would get into and drive even a base 997.2 or 991 9.5 times out of 10 (maybe even 9.9) with both in the garage and when getting in the F80 was really wanting to drive something else in my garage but doing because weather or just needing to drive it since I am spending money on it.

Having extensive experience in both Porsches and m cars.. I'd have to say your assumption that a base 997 is even half the performance of an m3 is incorrect. Good buddy of mine has a 997 c4 and its tiny and cheap compared to my m3... 991 is far better. I have a macan gts and the fit and finish is ok but stuff is already falling off the console

[Motorsportenterprise]

Have extensive experience owning and driving both brands (multiple models, and various trims).

Yes, surely a downgrade when you look at the meta picture (driving dynamics, steering, sound, quality, looks, heritage, so on and so forth). They all around more competent cars (any model and trim level) and if you dive deeper into parts, engineering, it is only more revealing.
At the same time, you also certainly pay a price for the tireless and precise over engineering of a Porsche, as well as the fact that the 911 isn't sold in numbers like an M3/4 or a Corvette (supply and demand).
End of the day, it all comes down to what one person values, but BMW aspires to compete with Porsche and benchmarks the Porsche car (as most do) and not the other way around. That should be the most telling factor.

[REDEV217342]

Originally Posted by StormRYU

What did you like/Don't like about it?

Liked - immediate traction hook up; brute acceleration (Had Cobb Tune and HKS midpipe); not many on the road at the time; actually liked the exterior styling of the car

Disliked - size; noisy mechanicals; constant challenges from every dbag in a car with four wheels and an engine; odd interior hodge podge layout

Note --- some of my dislikes have now been addressed (there are more on the road so the attention and challenges have probably diminished); the interior is better now and the newer versions are more quiet mechanically.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by HELLOimJ

Having extensive experience in both Porsches and m cars.. I'd have to say your assumption that a base 997 is even half the performance of an m3 is incorrect. Good buddy of mine has a 997 c4 and its tiny and cheap compared to my m3... 991 is far better. I have a macan gts and the fit and finish is ok but stuff is already falling off the console

Don't have to drive a buddies, have both the Macan and a 997.2 in same garage as an F80. The 997.2 has been driven about 5k miles since May. The F80 less than 1k miles. That says it all and the .2 has a great interior and nothing cheap feeling about it.

The Macan gets driven about the same amount in our garage. The wife drives the 997.2 or the DB11 and says the Macan is her least favorite vehicle we have.

RE: 991

Had a 991 GT3 and 2 turbo 997s. I prefer the 997 and my next favorite is 993 over the 991. Not about performance. All about driving pleasure.

[Mthrice]

Originally Posted by REDEV217342

Liked - immediate traction hook up; brute acceleration (Had Cobb Tune and HKS midpipe); not many on the road at the time; actually liked the exterior styling of the car

Disliked - size; noisy mechanicals; constant challenges from every dbag in a car with four wheels and an engine; odd interior hodge podge layout

Note --- some of my dislikes have now been addressed (there are more on the road so the attention and challenges have probably diminished); the interior is better now and the newer versions are more quiet mechanically.

Agree with all this. Don't mind the dbags though, pick and choose the actual competitors, and NEVER lose

[RIP1981]

Hi everyone,

currently I drive a F80 M3 LCI and a 991 4s, switching between them nearly everyday.
Both are automatic, so DCT and PDK.

Eventhough I am currently in legal processings to return the BMW because of multiple Failures in the first year of ownership, I still like the M3 for what it is.

I can compare both on daily basis and their character is quite different.

Both are quick cars and both have gorgeous interiors I think. The F80 has a better interior than a 997. 996 was horrible in this regard.

But they differ very much in feel. The M3 is overpowered and fun to drive exactly for this reason. It is much bigger, feels heavier, glumpsier but is also much more usable in terms of space. Big seats in the rear and a huge trunk.

Everything drivewise feels a whole class worse than in the Porsche. But it is still fun to feel it fight for traction or starting to drift all the time.
The power feels more brutal with this turbopunch. And it HAS more power down in the low revs for sure.

The Porsche is much more efficient. It has a LOT more traction (this also applies for the 2S version without awd) and instead of blinking MDM mode or smoking rear tyres it just goes and puts every single hp down.

The steering feel and pedal feel are much more intense and precise. The grip level in corners and the limit are much higher. You feel how the thing is low to the ground and grips and grips while the M3 feels heavy and quite high above the street in comparison.

The PDK shifts much smoother most of the time than the DCT and the automatic mode chooses gears better. In the BMW it is sometimes a bit rough. Every shift is quite noticable under load and it sometimes gets the wrong gear.
On the other hand the manual mode is a real one compared to the 991.1.

It starts a bit more aggressive while the pdk is smoother all around. Starting and shifting even under full throttle.

The most surprising thing for me is the comfort. The 911 is despite being a low down sportscar with bigger wheels quite a bit more comfy in terms of suspension on certain bumps.

The M3 is more quiet and feels more like a tank. You don't hear the engine and it runs smoother. Tyre noise and wind noises are more quiet than in the 911.

The engine sound is much better in the 911 with the n/a 3.8 b6, but it is also a bit rougher and louder starting it up. It has more shaking.

In terms of sheer performance I think the r6 turbo in the BMW is better. It started as smooh as silk after 9 months of just standing around. It is not as precise or immediate as the 911 engine but it has huge torque everywhere and reacts still fast enough.

Overall every steering element is harsher and more brutal in the BMW. The steering reacts ultrafast wihout the precision and the pedal way is shorter and more aggressive in all settings, even in efficient.
You can't control it as nice as in the Porsche.

I don't understand why they made the F80 harder than the Porsche in the suspension department. It has a lot of traction problems and I think a big part is the suspension ( I have the adaptive one always in comfort, still to hard sometimes)

I guess they did not do this because the engineers in munich don't know how to do it better, but because the typical M customer thinks that harder is more sporty and better.
I guess it is a choice on purpose.

The Porsche engineer tune the suspension for efficency and grip and on the same time make the car more comfortable for the older audience.


Both cars are fun. If you aim for performance and driving feel pleasure always go for Porsche. If you aim for hooligan drift burnout fun with a massive car or just need the space, go for the M3.

Porsche is elegant, tasteful and stylish.
M is just brutal and draws attention much more ( ok mine is YMB).
It is in the same time just a usual car but still special.

The Porsche is the other way around. It is usual in some way but special as a sportscar.

So BMW just a 3 series but somehow special.
Porsche special because it is an elegant sportscar but sou see them oftrn and they don't draw as much attention as Ferrari e.g.

Regards
RIP

[48Laws]

Yes.

[GrussGott]

Nick's comparo is pretty perfect IMO, basically:

* The M4 is more comfortable and faster in daily driver drag scenarios (than his C4S) skip to 4:10 for the drags

* The 911 is more driver focused, sits lower, and has a more go-cart feel.

And so we're left, as with all things, on what it is one values.

[Parabolica]

Why would anyone compare a 911 to a M4? Really there is no comparison. The 911 is far superior in every way except it's costs much more. There really is no direct competitors for the M4. Maybe the RS5 or the Cayman GTS.

[996ttelise]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Nick's comparo is pretty perfect IMO, basically:

* The M4 is more comfortable and faster in daily driver drag scenarios (than his C4S) skip to 4:10 for the drags

* The 911 is more driver focused, sits lower, and has a more go-cart feel.

And so we're left, as with all things, on what it is one values.

Perhaps regular seat are different, but my F80 has competition package seats and the 911 seats are way more comfy . . . not even close. Seating position also makes the 911 more comfortable. I really do not find the F80 very comfortable at all and I am used to driving cars with sports bucket seats. Feels like I am sitting up on a tractor bench seat that I can not get adjusted low enough or correctly.

My workout buddy and business partner that has a Mercedes S Coupe and CLS AMG said the 997.2 was the most comfy car he had ever been in, better than my DB11, and he was a linebacker for University of Kentucky a few years ago. Not a small a dude.

I am calling BS if this guy really thinks that unless the regular F8X seats are much different than the ZCP seats. This is an easy one. Just go sit in a 911 or drive it around the block. They are super comfy cars unless you have the bucket seats and I still like those better.

I do agree with guy above about attention. My YMB F80 ZCP gets more attention than my 911 and my DB11. They primarily comment on the color though and it seems to be more females than males.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

Why would anyone compare a 911 to a M4? Really there is no comparison. The 911 is far superior in every way except it's costs much more. There really is no direct competitors for the M4. Maybe the RS5 or the Cayman GTS.

C63?

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

Perhaps regular seat are different, but my F80 has competition package seats and the 911 seats are way more comfy . . . not even close. Seating position also makes the 911 more comfortable. I really do not find the F80 very comfortable at all and I am used to driving cars with sports bucket seats. Feels like I am sitting up on a tractor bench seat that I can not get adjusted low enough or correctly.

My workout buddy and business partner that has a Mercedes S Coupe and CLS AMG said the 997.2 was the most comfy car he had ever been in, better than my DB11, and he was a linebacker for University of Kentucky a few years ago. Not a small a dude.

I am calling BS if this guy really thinks that unless the regular F8X seats are much different than the ZCP seats. This is an easy one. Just go sit in a 911 or drive it around the block. They are super comfy cars unless you have the bucket seats and I still like those better.

Sounds like it's time to dump the F80.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by 996ttelise

I am calling BS if this guy really thinks that unless the regular F8X seats are much different than the ZCP seats. This is an easy one. Just go sit in a 911 or drive it around the block. They are super comfy cars unless you have the bucket seats and I still like those better.

I have done that and much more and I find my F83 seats much more comfortable, plus the F8x is a much roomier car overall which also leads to more comfort, at least for me.

Given everyone involved has tried them all, where do you think the conversation goes from here?

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

Why would anyone compare a 911 to a M4? Really there is no comparison. The 911 is far superior in every way except it's costs much more. There really is no direct competitors for the M4. Maybe the RS5 or the Cayman GTS.

C63 AMG

[Parabolica]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

C63 AMG

Like I said. No competition.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

Like I said. No competition.

Agreed. I'm not a Merc fan either.

They are competitors though.

To me Mercedes is just another old dudes ride

[Super Spartan]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

Agreed. I'm not a Merc fan either.

They are competitors though.

To me Mercedes is just another old dudes ride

if we all describe Mercedes as old dude ries (totally agree BTW)... I wonder what the guys at the AMG forums call BMW owners