Cost to track: Porsche vs BMW, chime in if you’ve upgraded

[adc]

Originally Posted by avantix

This is so true and happened to me. I'm in the red run group at my local BMW club and despite being solo I like to run the first session of the day with an instructor, I believe you can always learn something. He was seasoned veteran with lots W2W racing experience and had a 996 GT3 and could not believe the amount of torque the F80 M3 had and the speed it could carry into a turn. He flat out said he wouldn't be able to keep up with this car. Despite that I can also understand the argument of driving a visceral car like a 996 GT3. It all depends what you're after but all things being equal when something breaks on a P car especially a GT I can't imagine it being cheap.

Interesting. I’ve had instructors and people who race in NASA as passengers and some told me similar things and I’ve always thought they are simply being polite or trying to bolster my confidence. I never thought to check their lap times, I don’t want to be a slave to that habit.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by adc

Interesting. I’ve had instructors and people who race in NASA as passengers and some told me similar things and I’ve always thought they are simply being polite or trying to bolster my confidence. I never thought to check their lap times, I don’t want to be a slave to that habit.

It wasn't being polite.

M cars are also quite noble in their behavior at the limit, so they are not actively trying to kill you. Driving a car that is not trying to kill you allows you to push more and get faster.

Still my preferred track option, especially as you can take 4 tires in the back comfortably and drive to/from the track

[ano0oj]

My instructor during my 1st track weekend was surprised how well the F80 handled everything. At one point he saw my oil temperature and points it out "Is that REALLY your oil temp?! wow." after he noticed it was under 220F for most of my sessions.

[NYG]

It's going to be a balance. If you look at it from a very general perspective and assume that there are no malfunctions with any components:

Porsche is the lighter car so by default you'll have less wear/tear.
BMW parts are a little cheaper and more abundant (still expensive though).

BMW does not sell a single track ready car. I know some people here don't like to hear it but it's a fact. M cars are just modded versions of mass production rental cars. The initial investment (at least with the F80/F82) will be higher than a Porsche. You need either brake cooling or a big brake kit. Some people here say the stock iron brakes work perfectly for them but it blows my fucking mind every time I hear it. I did 20 min at Limerock at 50% from cold and my rotor/caliper temps were still ridiculous.

[turbo8765]

Upgraded?

I guess more expensive is always better. They still have struts.

While I prefer a dedicated sports car build, a modded rental can be a solid track ready car.

What temp is ridiculous?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by NYG

It's going to be a balance. If you look at it from a very general perspective and assume that there are no malfunctions with any components:

Porsche is the lighter car so by default you'll have less wear/tear.
BMW parts are a little cheaper and more abundant (still expensive though).

BMW does not sell a single track ready car. I know some people here don't like to hear it but it's a fact. M cars are just modded versions of mass production rental cars. The initial investment (at least with the F80/F82) will be higher than a Porsche. You need either brake cooling or a big brake kit. Some people here say the stock iron brakes work perfectly for them but it blows my fucking mind every time I hear it. I did 20 min at Limerock at 50% from cold and my rotor/caliper temps were still ridiculous.

Even 991 GT3s get significant mods for track use.

For the same speed, the F8X is much cheaper than the Porsche. I don't understand how there could ever be a doubt about this.
New vs new, new vs old, old vs new? Even Porsche fanatics wind up in M3s when it comes time to actually race, like at AER. That for the same money you will go much faster in a M3 is pretty clear.

The stock brakes do need to be upgraded to something like PFC/AP, but walk around the paddock and you'll find 991 GT3s that also run PFC/AP brakes. You're considering 5k an investment that's too steep to handle when comparing the F8X against what car?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by NYG

It's going to be a balance. If you look at it from a very general perspective and assume that there are no malfunctions with any components:

Porsche is the lighter car so by default you'll have less wear/tear.
BMW parts are a little cheaper and more abundant (still expensive though).

BMW does not sell a single track ready car. I know some people here don't like to hear it but it's a fact. M cars are just modded versions of mass production rental cars. The initial investment (at least with the F80/F82) will be higher than a Porsche. You need either brake cooling or a big brake kit. Some people here say the stock iron brakes work perfectly for them but it blows my fucking mind every time I hear it. I did 20 min at Limerock at 50% from cold and my rotor/caliper temps were still ridiculous.

I would disagree with you here.

I’ve owned 3 generations of M3/4 thus far and find them pretty track ready out of the box. They only need relatively small mods such as camber plates and track pads to be pretty reliable track toys.

On the other hand, based on the feedback from multiple track buddies that run Porsches, non-GT Porsches will need a fair bit of modifications to sustain regular track use. The GT cars are pretty track ready right out of the box.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by NYG

It's going to be a balance. If you look at it from a very general perspective and assume that there are no malfunctions with any components:

Porsche is the lighter car so by default you'll have less wear/tear.
BMW parts are a little cheaper and more abundant (still expensive though).

BMW does not sell a single track ready car. I know some people here don't like to hear it but it's a fact. M cars are just modded versions of mass production rental cars. The initial investment (at least with the F80/F82) will be higher than a Porsche. You need either brake cooling or a big brake kit. Some people here say the stock iron brakes work perfectly for them but it blows my fucking mind every time I hear it. I did 20 min at Limerock at 50% from cold and my rotor/caliper temps were still ridiculous.

Rental cars are the fastest cars

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Rental cars are the fastest cars

Dude. The Suzuki Swift ring rental car passed me when I did my 1 tourist lap of the ring

[NYG]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

I would disagree with you here.

I’ve owned 3 generations of M3/4 thus far and find them pretty track ready out of the box. They only need relatively small mods such as camber plates and track pads to be pretty reliable track toys.

On the other hand, based on the feedback from multiple track buddies that run Porsches, non-GT Porsches will need a fair bit of modifications to sustain regular track use. The GT cars are pretty track ready right out of the box.

All I can offer is my personal experience and the experience within among usual track buddies. I just replaced the stock setup with an AP Racing BBK because I'm tired of having every track day ruined. Here's some photos:



Front Left Caliper - Four pistons is inadequate for a car this fast and this heavy. Slower cars well below the price range of the CS come with 6 piston setups. Calipers weigh over 8 lbs, they hold a lot of heat and the F8x is a terrible platform for brake cooling. The vents inside your wheel well are blocked by a radiator. You'll have to modify your front bumper to get decent brake cooling unless you want to mount that 800$ duct and plastic inlet under your splitter only to rip it off in a corner. Aluminum pistons are crap. Dust boots and seals are completed roasted.



Brake Fluid after 1 hour and 20 minutes at Limerock Park in late October. New fluid prior to event.



Color of fresh fluid.




I'm not a professional racer, I don't drive for F1, so naturally my technique will have a slight impact on this. All I can tell you is that I threshold brake all the time and after 1-2 sessions, I've lost complete confidence in my brakes.

The first law of thermodynamics w/ non-conservative forces (drag, friction) still nets, more or less, the same heat energy which must be dissipated by the system from any driver decelerating from B to A in the same period of time.

My conclusion is that the stock brakes, given the brake cooling constraints, is completely inadequate for hard track use and will prevent you from really developing and improving your driving abilities.

I will add that removing the dust shield behind the rotor will significantly improve air flow. A brake shim will not lower overall temperatures because as noted above the heat energy remains the same BUT what it will do is delay/mitigate the transfer of heat between the pad/rotor into the caliper which will result in higher pad/rotor temps but lower caliper and brake fluid temps.

If you guys haven't experienced the same thing then I'm very jealous because nothing I did helped.

[NYG]

Oh, and that BMW should be ashamed of themselves for robbing their customers with garbage 4 piston brakes like this whether or not they think most buyers would never take it on a track.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Rental cars are the fastest cars

Only if you're driving.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Even 991 GT3s get significant mods for track use.

For the same speed, the F8X is much cheaper than the Porsche. I don't understand how there could ever be a doubt about this.
New vs new, new vs old, old vs new? Even Porsche fanatics wind up in M3s when it comes time to actually race, like at AER. That for the same money you will go much faster in a M3 is pretty clear.

The stock brakes do need to be upgraded to something like PFC/AP, but walk around the paddock and you'll find 991 GT3s that also run PFC/AP brakes. You're considering 5k an investment that's too steep to handle when comparing the F8X against what car?

You're not wrong but I guess it also depends on what spectrum of tracking you'd be in. I know that in my case, a 991 3RS would be more than adequate for tracking. But of course adequate doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't have flaws. I'd be able to do a full day of tracking without having to change my driving style to compensate for lack of brake confidence. The times wouldn't be as good as they should be but that would be the more extreme end. In my opinion, the F8x is literally dangerous with the stock setup. I've heard the carbon ceramics aren't much better but I've got zero experience with them.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by NYG

You're not wrong but I guess it also depends on what spectrum of tracking you'd be in. I know that in my case, a 991 3RS would be more than adequate for tracking. But of course adequate doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't have flaws. I'd be able to do a full day of tracking without having to change my driving style to compensate for lack of brake confidence. The times wouldn't be as good as they should be but that would be the more extreme end. In my opinion, the F8x is literally dangerous with the stock setup. I've heard the carbon ceramics aren't much better but I've got zero experience with them.

If your question is whether a 200k car has better brakes than an 80k car, the answer is definitely yes.

On one hand you do not want to upgrade brakes for 5k to the same ones that GT3 RS owners move to, but on the other you're good to double the price of the car to solve the brake issue.

The GT3 RS does not immediately need suspension/brake upgrades. It is also ~150k used.


Answering the original question, where OP is asking whether it's cheaper to mod his F8X or 'upgrade' to a Porsche, the answer is clearly that it's cheaper to get brakes and maybe suspension. An added benefit is that in the F8X he will have to learn how to drive, which is reportedly the reason people go to the track in the first place. Meanwhile, the GT3 and GT3 RS guys all run with their nannies on, God forbid the car actually reacts to their cretinous inputs.

F8Xs are sold for 35k now, so saying that a 150k also used car doesn't require brakes/suspension and is therefore cheaper does not make sense.
If someone offers to sell a car for $20M that comes with free tires and free gasoline for life, is that also cheaper somehow?

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by NYG

All I can offer is my personal experience and the experience within among usual track buddies. I just replaced the stock setup with an AP Racing BBK because I'm tired of having every track day ruined. Here's some photos:

Front Left Caliper - Four pistons is inadequate for a car this fast and this heavy. Slower cars well below the price range of the CS come with 6 piston setups. Calipers weigh over 8 lbs, they hold a lot of heat and the F8x is a terrible platform for brake cooling. The vents inside your wheel well are blocked by a radiator. You'll have to modify your front bumper to get decent brake cooling unless you want to mount that 800$ duct and plastic inlet under your splitter only to rip it off in a corner. Aluminum pistons are crap. Dust boots and seals are completed roasted.



Brake Fluid after 1 hour and 20 minutes at Limerock Park in late October. New fluid prior to event.

Color of fresh fluid.




I'm not a professional racer, I don't drive for F1, so naturally my technique will have a slight impact on this. All I can tell you is that I threshold brake all the time and after 1-2 sessions, I've lost complete confidence in my brakes.

The first law of thermodynamics w/ non-conservative forces (drag, friction) still nets, more or less, the same heat energy which must be dissipated by the system from any driver decelerating from B to A in the same period of time.

My conclusion is that the stock brakes, given the brake cooling constraints, is completely inadequate for hard track use and will prevent you from really developing and improving your driving abilities.

I will add that removing the dust shield behind the rotor will significantly improve air flow. A brake shim will not lower overall temperatures because as noted above the heat energy remains the same BUT what it will do is delay/mitigate the transfer of heat between the pad/rotor into the caliper which will result in higher pad/rotor temps but lower caliper and brake fluid temps.

If you guys haven't experienced the same thing then I'm very jealous because nothing I did helped.

How many events were on those calipers, and which tracks?

We don't really know what pace you're running out on track, but we can look at your "best" laptimes in this thread for insight. To me it seems like you're either overbraking, threshold braking for a full session without letting up, trail braking too long, or less likely over driving MDM mode. It just doesn't make sense if you're only getting an hour outta brake fluid either.

I think most of the guys in here would agree that the M3 is far from a racecar, but it's pretty darn good in stock form. That topic has already been beat to death in other threads, but Shadow and the others make some great points in supporting that thought.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

If your question is whether a 200k car has better brakes than an 80k car, the answer is definitely yes.

On one hand you do not want to upgrade brakes for 5k to the same ones that GT3 RS owners move to, but on the other you're good to double the price of the car to solve the brake issue.

The GT3 RS does not immediately need suspension/brake upgrades. It is also ~150k used.


Answering the original question, where OP is asking whether it's cheaper to mod his F8X or 'upgrade' to a Porsche, the answer is clearly that it's cheaper to get brakes and maybe suspension. An added benefit is that in the F8X he will have to learn how to drive, which is reportedly the reason people go to the track in the first place. Meanwhile, the GT3 and GT3 RS guys all run with their nannies on, God forbid the car actually reacts to their cretinous inputs.

F8Xs are sold for 35k now, so saying that a 150k also used car doesn't require brakes/suspension and is therefore cheaper does not make sense.
If someone offers to sell a car for $20M that comes with free tires and free gasoline for life, is that also cheaper somehow?

I think that's too focused on the initial time period but I don't see one as jumping out as the obvious answer. I think there's more of a balance in the long term looking at it from a very general point of view. I haven't really done the math to argue the point as a fact.

Assuming you get both vehicles new or used, the F8x needs about 10k for me to feel comfortable in it (YMMV). The 3RS is about ~400 lbs lighter, which is pretty huge. You'll go through less tires, pads, rotors, fluids etc. On top of that, you'll be saving yourself time out of your own life to do all this consumable related maintenance over the years. Add interest on all that and the performance superiority of the Porsche over the F8x and it starts to narrow in my eyes.

That being said I think a 3RS is a stretch to compare to the F8x, I think a GT4 is a better car than the F8x even if it's slower. Even a plain GT3.

I wish I could take back all the days I spent flushing fluids and swapping rotors with my stock system. That alone would be worth the money.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by NYG

I think that's too focused on the initial time period but I don't see one as jumping out as the obvious answer. I think there's more of a balance in the long term looking at it from a very general point of view. I haven't really done the math to argue the point as a fact.

Assuming you get both vehicles new or used, the F8x needs about 10k for me to feel comfortable in it (YMMV). The 3RS is about ~400 lbs lighter, which is pretty huge. You'll go through less tires, pads, rotors, fluids etc. On top of that, you'll be saving yourself time out of your own life to do all this consumable related maintenance over the years. Add interest on all that and the performance superiority of the Porsche over the F8x and it starts to narrow in my eyes.

That being said I think a 3RS is a stretch to compare to the F8x, I think a GT4 is a better car than the F8x even if it's slower. Even a plain GT3.

I wish I could take back all the days I spent flushing fluids and swapping rotors with my stock system. That alone would be worth the money.

With a 5k front BBK your same car can do at least 2:06 at WGI, which is as fast as the fast GT3 RS you can run into. Seems quite cost-reasonable if you ask me. Add 5k in suspension, R1s tires and you'll be awfully close to 2:00 which is much faster than the fastest run group PCA GT3 RSs. How can you get something more cost effective than this?

That same 5k BBK will allow you to change fluid once a year and the pads last longer than the GT3 RS pads as they are much larger, another reason the GT3 RS guys switch to full AP Radical setups. The people who have 'no problems' with the stock brakes are generally not as fast as you are. I did not even track one day on the stock brakes as I knew exactly what to expect.

No one can give you back the time you spent doing that, but you were warned about the limitations of the stock system a while ago and didn't change anything. Now you are thinking of a 150k used car to fix a problem you could have fixed with 5k.

Everyone can do whatever they want with their money, but if I've run PSS tires at the track and after consuming 8 sets I say I need a new car because it's nuts I can't get more life out of the tires... someone else may point out that using PSS tires was my own doing.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by OhioRiderAaron

How many events were on those calipers, and which tracks?

We don't really know what pace you're running out on track, but we can look at your "best" laptimes in this thread for insight. To me it seems like you're either overbraking, threshold braking for a full session without letting up, trail braking too long, or less likely over driving MDM mode. It just doesn't make sense if you're only getting an hour outta brake fluid either.

I think most of the guys in here would agree that the M3 is far from a racecar, but it's pretty darn good in stock form. That topic has already been beat to death in other threads, but Shadow and the others make some great points in supporting that thought.

8-10? Limerock, NJMP & Watkins Glen mostly. Poconos somewhere in there.

Overbraking: Very possible but the extent of it would not be that significant to render these brakes useless. The overbraking would also be a symptom of lack of confidence in the system. The majority of the heat will be introduced on the initial change in kinetic energy.

Threshold braking for a full session: No because they fall off well before the session ends.

Trailbraking too long: I don't trailbrake enough to be honest. Need the most work on this.

MDM: I only run T/C off on the track.

Not trying to dive into the topic any further just my supporting points relative to the topic and watching every single one of my track regular friends/acquaintances never dealing with this issue (excluding F8x guys who deal with the same thing --- not all but the ones running the fastest laps do). I love my F8x, I'm just pissed that BMW thinks it's cool to put anus brembos with 4 pistons in it.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by NYG

Oh, and that BMW should be ashamed of themselves for robbing their customers with garbage 4 piston brakes like this whether or not they think most buyers would never take it on a track.

The problem is not 4 piston brakes. Performance and pistons are two unrelated concepts.

The E9X generation had a single piston, sliding calipers. Its brakes still outperformed the C63 of the era that had massive 6 piston fixed calipers which were useless other than confusing the feeble minded.

The market is full of people who want fancy 'multipiston brakes', so BMW goes ahead and gives people what they want

[NYG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

With a 5k front BBK your same car can do at least 2:06 at WGI, which is as fast as the fast GT3 RS you can run into. Seems quite cost-reasonable if you ask me. Add 5k in suspension, R1s tires and you'll be awfully close to 2:00 which is much faster than the fastest run group PCA GT3 RSs. How can you get something more cost effective than this?

That same 5k BBK will allow you to change fluid once a year and the pads last longer than the GT3 RS pads as they are much larger, another reason the GT3 RS guys switch to full AP Radical setups. The people who have 'no problems' with the stock brakes are generally not as fast as you are. I did not even track one day on the stock brakes as I knew exactly what to expect.

No one can give you back the time you spent doing that, but you were warned about the limitations of the stock system a while ago and didn't change anything. Now you are thinking of a 150k used car to fix a problem you could have fixed with 5k.

Everyone can do whatever they want with their money, but if I've run PSS tires at the track and after consuming 8 sets I say I need a new car because it's nuts I can't get more life out of the tires... someone else may point out that using PSS tires was my own doing.

Not at all. I got the AP because I decided to stick with the F8x because I'm with you on it being a far better platform to actually develop skill in. A grandma can run fast laps in a 3RS. I wanted the 3RS because I've always wanted that car, wasn't even track related. Covid-19 really put a damper on that though as I spent the last 3 months trying to keep all my employees fed.

I didn't have the initial finances to invest in the BBK from the get go but I should have 100% done this sooner.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The problem is not 4 piston brakes. Performance and pistons are two unrelated concepts.

The E9X generation had a single piston, sliding calipers. Its brakes still outperformed the C63 of the era that had massive 6 piston fixed calipers which were useless other than confusing the feeble minded.

The market is full of people who want fancy 'multipiston brakes', so BMW goes ahead and gives people what they want

I was just describing the caliper when I said that but unless we're talking some unusual setup; More pistons = Larger Calipers (typically) = Larger Pads = Larger Friction Area = More Volume = Thermal Mass

Physics alone dictates better performance.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by NYG

I was just describing the caliper when I said that but unless we're talking some unusual setup; More pistons = Larger Calipers (typically) = Larger Pads = Larger Friction Area = More Volume = Thermal Mass

Physics alone dictates better performance.

You'll get more of an advantage out of a proper rotor than the larger caliper. I wish PFC built the Direct Drive rotors for the F8X, they would be a huge upgrade

Glad you got the AP kit, hopefully we can do a track day together this season