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      01-08-2014, 10:39 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by camber View Post
Agreed for the most part.

But, again, you missed the simple fact that not everyone defines a car and its "competition" in terms of performance. Saying the Mustang is as fast as the M3 today is strictly basing the comparison on performance.
I understand there are other factors besides performance; like I said there is an emotional component which for some is just as legitimate.

Still, its clear there is a lot of commonality between the goals a Mustang is setting out to achieve and the goals a 4 Series and M4 try to achieve. Certainly there are more dots to connect there than there are with your EVO example and the BRZ brought up earlier. And even putting that aside, certainly for the C"63" coupe, RS5 (especially the next one which will ditch the high revving V8), RC-F, ATS-V coupe - the lines are even stronger. These are all luxury sport coupes in the $70k to $80k range offering similar amenities, similar levels of performance, and similar levels of exclusivity. You are going to see them matched up dozens of times in magazines over the next few years. As a BMW enthusiast, my heart certainly lies with the M3 (cum M4) but I really like what I see coming from the rest of the players as well.
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      01-08-2014, 11:31 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by dreamsongs View Post
I agree that it comes down to personal taste in the end. It really has to be a mix of speed/power, interior feel, exterior looks, transmission, handling and how you feel when you drive it.

I've had 2 M's, e46 and e92 and loved them both. When the lease was up last year on my e92 I probably would've gone straight to the new M4 if it was available but it wasn't, so I got myself into a vert 335i until the m4 is out.

I'm looking at everything, I have one more year to make up my mind. The M3 has always been special to me but I agree with some posters that the competition is closing the gap quickly and I also admit I was disappointed when I first heard about them going back to the I6.

Somewhere inside I'm also disappointed that it's only going to be 425 HP although the torque is an improvement. Especially when HP is someting many consumers at this price level take into consideration.

I have one year to make up my mind, I've had 6 BMW's and 2 M's so i'm quite at ease with the brand. I fortunately can buy any car at this 65-80k price range so I'm not going to rush into an M4 just because....

I'll reserve my choice until I drive all the competitors and see where the M4 sits at that time....
All valid points.

But you have to remember that for every person dissatisfied with the direction BMW ///M has gone, there's a person like me who's absolutely thrilled with it. Let me address the new M3 attributes that you are disappointed with.

For starters, I love the fact that the new car will "only" have 425 hp. I think this is plenty of power for a car that approaches the weight of my e46 M3. Hell, I still think that my e46 M3 has more than enough power at 333 hp. My rationale is very simple. After several years of competition at the track and autox, I learned that the majority of people cannot effectively unlock the true potential of their car, even when the car seems "underpowered" for today's standards. I also learned that it's much more rewarding and more fun to drive less powerful cars at the limit than it is to drive very powerful beasts at half their potential (which relates to the first point).

I love the fact that BMW shifted focus to reducing weight as opposed to increasing horsepower. I can give a million reasons why, but I don't think that's necessary.

Lastly, I love the fact that BMW went back to the I6 roots with the M3, despite opting for FI. To me, the I6 motors were the most exciting ///M engines ever built and one of the reasons why I owned a 99 M3/4/5 and a 2004 M3 coupe. Those motors felt nothing like the 4 banger or the V8. To some, that's a good thing. I never cared for the sound and feel of the V8. Believe it or not, I actually like the unique, raspy sound of the S54, how surgical it feels, and the madness it unleashes, despite allegedly "lacking" the power, which I would kindly disagree with.

In the end, I can only hope that - to a certain degree - this new M3/M4 feels as precise and rewarding as my e46 M3. If it does, I will buy it.
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      01-08-2014, 11:51 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I understand there are other factors besides performance; like I said there is an emotional component which for some is just as legitimate.

Still, its clear there is a lot of commonality between the goals a Mustang is setting out to achieve and the goals a 4 Series and M4 try to achieve. Certainly there are more dots to connect there than there are with your EVO example and the BRZ brought up earlier. And even putting that aside, certainly for the C"63" coupe, RS5 (especially the next one which will ditch the high revving V8), RC-F, ATS-V coupe - the lines are even stronger. These are all luxury sport coupes in the $70k to $80k range offering similar amenities, similar levels of performance, and similar levels of exclusivity. You are going to see them matched up dozens of times in magazines over the next few years. As a BMW enthusiast, my heart certainly lies with the M3 (cum M4) but I really like what I see coming from the rest of the players as well.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for competition closing the gap. It's just that, to me, the competition hasn't done anything to warrant a serious consideration over the M3 for the reasons I already listed.

Like I said, this may or may not change with the new M3/M4 and the new competition. Nobody knows. Certainly, I don't know, because I haven't driven any of these new cars yet. And I will reserve my judgement until I do.

I admit that part of the reason why I am quick to dismiss the competition is because of what the competition delivered in the past. Times change, I get that. The new competitors may have indeed caught up in the driving feel, feedback, and input areas. But until I experience it, I will highly doubt it.
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      01-08-2014, 11:53 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by camber View Post
All valid points.

But you have to remember that for every person dissatisfied with the direction BMW ///M has gone, there's a person like me who's absolutely thrilled with it. Let me address the new M3 attributes that you are disappointed with.

For starters, I love the fact that the new car will "only" have 425 hp. I think this is plenty of power for a car that approaches the weight of my e46 M3. Hell, I still think that my e46 M3 has more than enough power at 333 hp. My rationale is very simple. After several years of competition at the track and autox, I learned that the majority of people cannot effectively unlock the true potential of their car, even when the car seems "underpowered" for today's standards. I also learned that it's much more rewarding and more fun to drive less powerful cars at the limit than it is to drive very powerful beasts at half their potential (which relates to the first point).

I love the fact that BMW shifted focus to reducing weight as opposed to increasing horsepower. I can give a million reasons why, but I don't think that's necessary.

Lastly, I love the fact that BMW went back to the I6 roots with the M3, despite opting for FI. To me, the I6 motors were the most exciting ///M engines ever built and one of the reasons why I owned a 99 M3/4/5 and a 2004 M3 coupe. Those motors felt nothing like the 4 banger or the V8. To some, that's a good thing. I never cared for the sound and feel of the V8. Believe it or not, I actually like the unique, raspy sound of the S54, how surgical it feels, and the madness it unleashes, despite allegedly "lacking" the power, which I would kindly disagree with.

In the end, I can only hope that - to a certain degree - this new M3/M4 feels as precise and rewarding as my e46 M3. If it does, I will buy it.
All good points and I agree....

That's why I'm not panicking and waiting until I can get my ass into the driver's seat. I'm definitely biased towards the M4 so unless the car truly disappoints comparing to my last e92 I will probably buy one.

But then there's this whole other subject of exterior and interior colors. They need more choices and hopefully by the 2016 models they can add more. My dealer is getting one in April and has already called me to test drive it. "I'll be back" (Terminator's voice) with a full report once I go out in that baby and see what it can do....
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      01-08-2014, 12:04 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
As a BMW enthusiast, my heart certainly lies with the M3 (cum M4) but I really like what I see coming from the rest of the players as well.

Well put.

BMW is my "default", it is always the car I cheer for in comparisons, and always the first car I go to test drive when I go through my yearly car upgrade (a very expensive, stupid habit).

I do suspect that, despite what camber is saying, there are more and more "BMW guys" cross-shopping other cars than ever before.
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      01-08-2014, 12:09 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by camber View Post
For starters, I love the fact that the new car will "only" have 425 hp. I think this is plenty of power for a car that approaches the weight of my e46 M3. Hell, I still think that my e46 M3 has more than enough power at 333 hp. My rationale is very simple. **After several years of competition at the track and autox, I learned that the majority of people cannot effectively unlock the true potential of their car,** even when the car seems "underpowered" for today's standards. I also learned that it's much more rewarding and more fun to drive less powerful cars at the limit than it is to drive very powerful beasts at half their potential (which relates to the first point).
I agree with most of your other points but I think the starred statement above is too pompous. I unlock the true potential of my car's engine every single time I merge on the freeway. It feels good and more power would feel better.
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      01-08-2014, 12:14 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by camber View Post

I love the fact that BMW shifted focus to reducing weight as opposed to increasing horsepower. I can give a million reasons why, but I don't think that's necessary.

Lastly, I love the fact that BMW went back to the I6 roots with the M3, despite opting for FI. To me, the I6 motors were the most exciting ///M engines ever built and one of the reasons why I owned a 99 M3/4/5 and a 2004 M3 coupe.
The competition is reducing weight (and to a greater extent than BMW is with the M3/M4, which let's be honest, is a mild reduction in weight) as well. The competition is also making larger strides in upping the horsepower. Again, what next generation of M3 has brought about such a minor improvement in horsepower over its predecessor as this one?

But more importantly than all of this is the chassis balance, the steering feel, the emotion felt by the driver. By all accounts, this is where the competition has improved the most while BMW has recessed. You do not sound like someone who has bothered to drive a 2012+ C63, a 2011+ Audi S4, or an '09+ CTS-V. Each of these cars clearly were developed to be as BMW-like as possible in terms of balancing comfort and enjoyment and I can promise you they have succeeded, the car magazines are in agreement.

You seem to put a premium on prestige, history, and pedigree and look for things in you cars beyond performance. Your posts indicate that you would gladly surrender horsepower and torque for the sake of having a traditional M3 I-6 in your car. That is fine if that is what you are looking for. But I can promise you that the majority of car enthusiasts would not make such a concession and don't give a good goddamn what is under the hood as long as it performs when they put their foot into it.

I hope the M3 crushes the competition. But from what I have witnessed in the past 2-3 years, I think it is likely that BMW will struggle with the competition this generation far more than they ever have in the past. I sure hope I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
I agree with most of your other points but I think the starred statement above is too pompous. I unlock the true potential of my car's engine every single time I merge on the freeway. It feels good and more power would feel better.
Hear, hear!
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      01-08-2014, 12:32 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
Your intention is to misunderstood Basscadets post ???

An M3 was never about the biggest power / biggest engine .... RIGHT ... but an M3 was ever until now about an unique, exciting, emotional and sporty engine -> this is one of the important things described as "M Spirit" and "Rennsporttechnik für die Straße" and this is gone with the S55 ... don´t misunderstand me, the new M3/M4 will be an great car and "the best M3 ever" but the heart of the spirit was lost with this engine decision !!!

If they had decided that ~430hp are enough and therefore bring the F8x with an slightly modified S65, none would complaining that the new car has less hp than its competitors, because the engine fulfil all demand of an real and great M engine!

But if the decides the new M3/M4 need an turbo engine, because turbo engine is the engine of the present generation, than an lighter 4.0ltr.V8TT based on the S63Tü were the best option in terms of M spirit and M worthyness, second - for me - would be an innovative new 3.0-3.3ltr.V6TT also based on the S63Tü an developed at Nissan GT-R standards and third an 3.0-3.3ltr.I6TT (based on an half N73?) with greater bore than stroke like first rumored here on bimmerpost.

AND last ... no matter what turbo engine they would have been chosen ... he should in any case have more hp than only 430 ... to justify the rejection of the great NA S65 !!!
I didn't misunderstand anything! You and Basscadett want more power and a V8 engine, that's fine! People expect different things from the M3, but I was making a point that as long as the driving experience is holistic, the F8X can provide just as much enjoyment despite having a "inferior" engine to the E9X. Now, what makes no sense is expecting more HP from the M3/M4 WITHOUT DRIVING ONE That is key here. If you want outstanding acceleration numbers, a stellar quarter mile and in gear acceleration, we do not yet know what the new car is capable of. And again, my point was that people should not expect these because historically, the M3 was never the benchmark because of its performance numbers, but because it excelled in the intangibles like feel and driving pleasure.
Also, 430HP is likely underrated since BMW severely underrated the S63Tü
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      01-08-2014, 12:34 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
I agree with most of your other points but I think the starred statement above is too pompous. I unlock the true potential of my car's engine every single time I merge on the freeway. It feels good and more power would feel better.
If unlocking the potential of your car means mashing the pedal on the freeway, then more power to you. Literally.

To some people, unlocking the potential of a car goes beyond reaching its acceleration limit on the street. In fact, often times, that's not it at all
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      01-08-2014, 01:04 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by camber View Post
If unlocking the potential of your car means mashing the pedal on the freeway, then more power to you. Literally.

To some people, unlocking the potential of a car goes beyond reaching its acceleration limit on the street. In fact, often times, that's not it at all
There are certain ramps in nearby freeways that I love to engage in but I agree that's not what I would call "unlocking the potential on the car". But unfortunately in this damn country with their ridiculous speed limits that's the only little thrill we'll ever get without going to the track....

I want an autobahn in my neighborhood damn it !
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      01-08-2014, 01:08 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
The competition is reducing weight (and to a greater extent than BMW is with the M3/M4, which let's be honest, is a mild reduction in weight) as well. The competition is also making larger strides in upping the horsepower. Again, what next generation of M3 has brought about such a minor improvement in horsepower over its predecessor as this one?

But more importantly than all of this is the chassis balance, the steering feel, the emotion felt by the driver. By all accounts, this is where the competition has improved the most while BMW has recessed. You do not sound like someone who has bothered to drive a 2012+ C63, a 2011+ Audi S4, or an '09+ CTS-V. Each of these cars clearly were developed to be as BMW-like as possible in terms of balancing comfort and enjoyment and I can promise you they have succeeded, the car magazines are in agreement.
I actually drove most of the cars you named, with the exception of the CTS-V.

Most of my friends own (or owned) the competition at one point. From C63 to S4, STEvos, etc. Not only did I drive them, I literally ran laps with some of these cars. I couldn't count the number of times my friends and I switched cars at HPDE's and autox events.

My personal experience has been that NONE of them felt as stable and as connected to the road as the M3, both e46 and e92. None of them provided the steering input and responsiveness found in the M3. None of them felt as sharp and agile as the M3. None offered the precise and raw feel. They weren't even in the same dimension and I'm not exaggerating in the slightest.

The M3 was simply on a whole 'nother level in this department. That's how I relate to the competition, which really wasn't there IMO. Would the CTS-V change my mind? - I guess I can't answer that, but I doubt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
You seem to put a premium on prestige, history, and pedigree and look for things in you cars beyond performance. Your posts indicate that you would gladly surrender horsepower and torque for the sake of having a traditional M3 I-6 in your car. That is fine if that is what you are looking for. But I can promise you that the majority of car enthusiasts would not make such a concession and don't give a good goddamn what is under the hood as long as it performs when they put their foot into it.
Agreed on all points.

But I assure you, there are still many, many enthusiasts out there who look past the performance figures and envy the way cars drive and feel. Sometimes for the "dumbest" reasons, or so it seems to those on the other side.

Take the 911 GT3 crowd, for example. The sheer absence of a manual gearbox on the new 991 makes the majority of 911 enthusiasts I spoke to favor the 997 over the 991, even if we assume that everything in the new car is an improvement over the old (which it is, to a large degree).

Quote:
Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
I hope the M3 crushes the competition. But from what I have witnessed in the past 2-3 years, I think it is likely that BMW will struggle with the competition this generation far more than they ever have in the past. I sure hope I am wrong.
I hope so too
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      01-08-2014, 01:15 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Savory View Post
I didn't misunderstand anything! You and Basscadett want more power and a V8 engine, that's fine! People expect different things from the M3, but I was making a point that as long as the driving experience is holistic, the F8X can provide just as much enjoyment despite having a "inferior" engine to the E9X. Now, what makes no sense is expecting more HP from the M3/M4 WITHOUT DRIVING ONE That is key here. If you want outstanding acceleration numbers, a stellar quarter mile and in gear acceleration, we do not yet know what the new car is capable of. And again, my point was that people should not expect these because historically, the M3 was never the benchmark because of its performance numbers, but because it excelled in the intangibles like feel and driving pleasure.
Also, 430HP is likely underrated since BMW severely underrated the S63Tü
Very well put.
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      01-08-2014, 02:02 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Savory View Post
I didn't misunderstand anything! You and Basscadett want more power and a V8 engine, that's fine! People expect different things from the M3, but I was making a point that as long as the driving experience is holistic, the F8X can provide just as much enjoyment despite having a "inferior" engine to the E9X. Now, what makes no sense is expecting more HP from the M3/M4 WITHOUT DRIVING ONE That is key here. If you want outstanding acceleration numbers, a stellar quarter mile and in gear acceleration, we do not yet know what the new car is capable of. And again, my point was that people should not expect these because historically, the M3 was never the benchmark because of its performance numbers, but because it excelled in the intangibles like feel and driving pleasure.
Also, 430HP is likely underrated since BMW severely underrated the S63Tü
Wrong ... the only thing I want is an M worthy engine ... I don't want/need more hp, but in my opinion the cheapest solution to fulfil the hp demand is never M worthy. The engine is the heart of an M3 an must be unique, special and full of M spirit !!!
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      01-08-2014, 02:31 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
Wrong ... the only thing I want is an M worthy engine ... I don't want/need more hp, but in my opinion the cheapest solution to fulfil the hp demand is never M worthy. The engine is the heart of an M3 an must be unique, special and full of M spirit !!!
Look, that is your opinion, and I have my opinion. You value the motor, I value the total package, so I don't think anyone is wrong. You judge food by its ingredients, I judge food by its taste.
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      01-08-2014, 02:55 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Savory View Post
Look, that is your opinion, and I have my opinion. You value the motor, I value the total package, so I don't think anyone is wrong. You judge food by its ingredients, I judge food by its taste.
I also value first the total package, but for me the engine is an important part of the package !!!
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      01-08-2014, 04:06 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT View Post
I also value first the total package, but for me the engine is an important part of the package !!!
Ooohhh, so it's the engine that's important to you. We weren't sure the first 73 times you said the same thing. Got it now.
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      01-11-2014, 04:46 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by camber View Post
My personal experience has been that NONE of them felt as stable and as connected to the road as the M3, both e46 and e92. None of them provided the steering input and responsiveness found in the M3. None of them felt as sharp and agile as the M3. None offered the precise and raw feel.
What was the model year of the C63 you drove? '12+ models received some major upgrades with respect to the suspension.

I was very close to getting an E92 M3 "Lime Rock" several months ago. It felt lighter than the C63. The DCT was the noticeably quicker transmission in manual mode while the MCT felt smoother and less jerky in the automatic modes.

The steering feel on the C63 was noticeably better (not by a huge margin, but by a noticeable one). The weight was perfect and it was very communicative. The C63's chassis also felt extremely neutral and I always knew where the front end was. With respect to the performance that you could extract out of each car on the street, it was a wash in the handling department.

With its lighter weight, I'm confident the E9X M3 would edge out the C63 on tracks filled with tight, technical turns. On faster tracks filled with high-speed sweepers, however, the car with more power will obviously have the advantage. For example, the current C63 is faster around the 'ring than the E9X M3.

The endless torque, extra ponies, and engine/exhaust note of the C63 broke the tie. The 6.2L V8 pulls like an animal above 5.5k. People forget that motor winds out to over 7k rpm.

I honestly wish I could've ended up with both. Especially now that the high-revving NA V8s are going the way of the dinosaur.
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      01-14-2014, 12:27 AM   #238
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What was the model year of the C63 you drove? '12+ models received some major upgrades with respect to the suspension.

I was very close to getting an E92 M3 "Lime Rock" several months ago. It felt lighter than the C63. The DCT was the noticeably quicker transmission in manual mode while the MCT felt smoother and less jerky in the automatic modes.

The steering feel on the C63 was noticeably better (not by a huge margin, but by a noticeable one). The weight was perfect and it was very communicative. The C63's chassis also felt extremely neutral and I always knew where the front end was. With respect to the performance that you could extract out of each car on the street, it was a wash in the handling department.

With its lighter weight, I'm confident the E9X M3 would edge out the C63 on tracks filled with tight, technical turns. On faster tracks filled with high-speed sweepers, however, the car with more power will obviously have the advantage. For example, the current C63 is faster around the 'ring than the E9X M3.

The endless torque, extra ponies, and engine/exhaust note of the C63 broke the tie. The 6.2L V8 pulls like an animal above 5.5k. People forget that motor winds out to over 7k rpm.

I honestly wish I could've ended up with both. Especially now that the high-revving NA V8s are going the way of the dinosaur.
-----
Long time M3 owner....not impressed with exterior. Lighter and more tq is what the new m needs though, so well done. But I am cross shopping the C63 for the first time. You love it?!
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      01-14-2014, 12:50 AM   #239
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-----
Long time M3 owner....not impressed with exterior. Lighter and more tq is what the new m needs though, so well done. But I am cross shopping the C63 for the first time. You love it?!
I love it. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have specific questions.

Or I'd be more than happy to address them here if you'd prefer.
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Gone: '13 W204 C63 Sedan
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      01-14-2014, 01:10 AM   #240
CJ_LO
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Have to wait for the C63 to come out to decide my next car.
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      01-14-2014, 04:22 PM   #241
karbonphiber
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No DCT on the 2015 C63 so I'm getting an M4
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      01-14-2014, 05:44 PM   #242
Emdriven
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Is there a specific timeline for the release of the next C63? I have had an M3 for the past two gens and am considering the C63. Drove one and loved it.
That said I need to see what their next car will look like. I wish their exterior would be a little more aggressive like the M.
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