Going from ZCP to CS edc!

[matty088]

how do i tell what version istep i have

[OhioRiderAaron]

Originally Posted by matty088

how do i tell what version istep i have

ESYS Lite (see other thread)

[RevNev]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The challenge is that spring PN number tables are not readily available.

What we do know for certain that the CS uses the base front sway bar and the comp pack rear sway bar.

By VIN #, my ZCP M4 has the same suspension parts as the CS VIN we entered in the dealer's system except for the front sway bar. The SC bar was non ZCP. However, it appears the ZCP with a sunroof has CS rear springs and without the sunroof option code, the ZCP listed a different rear spring. My ZCP has a sunroof unfortunately but when fitting an Eibach Pro kit, it lowered the rear more than Eibach specified indicating the rear of the car's heavier. It's likely the CS rear springs are a stiffer rate when they're fitted to sunroof optioned ZCP's.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by RevNev

By VIN #, my ZCP M4 has the same suspension parts as the CS VIN we entered in the dealer's system except for the front sway bar. The SC bar was non ZCP. However, it appears the ZCP with a sunroof has CS rear springs and without the sunroof option code, the ZCP listed a different rear spring. My ZCP has a sunroof unfortunately but when fitting an Eibach Pro kit, it lowered the rear more than Eibach specified indicating the rear of the car's heavier. It's likely the CS rear springs are a stiffer rate when they're fitted to sunroof optioned ZCP's.

Thanks for that additional info. It pretty much confirms what has been posted previously about the M4cs suspension components. So the lighter M4cs has the "heaviest" M4 CP springs and rear sway bar but paired with the non-CP front sway bar.

What remains unclear is the M3cs: does it have base springs or CP springs?

[RevNev]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Thanks for that additional info. It pretty much confirms what has been posted previously about the M4cs suspension components. So the lighter M4cs has the "heaviest" M4 CP springs and rear sway bar but paired with the non-CP front sway bar.

What remains unclear is the M3cs: does it have base springs or CP springs?

My ZCP understeered and transitioned into snap oversteer and generally speaking the handling balance was pretty good but wasn't right. How BMW corrected this with CS makes good sense and 19" front wheels corrects most of it. It's likely the rear stiffness of the CS is pretty well optimised and to further reduce the tendency to understeer, they've lightened the front bar back to stock (non ZCP) instead of stiffening the rear more to induce oversteer and likely add nervousness to the rear end.

I can check the M3 SC if I can get an Australian M3 CS VIN# to put into the dealer parts system. I haven't seen an M3 SC advertised for sale or listed as a model variant in Australia and I'm not sure if they're available here.

[JDE92M3]

Ok boys! I took the plunge. I have a non-ZCP car added swift springs and almost wanted to remove them. The bounce, the ride quality, everything about it almost felt unacceptable. Than I got the ZCP EDC coded in, made a world of a difference. It made the ride about 90-95% perfect. The issue was the car drove like a dream and had zero body roll on roads that were near perfection. But if an abrupt bump or potholes showed up, this is where I almost wanted to get rid of the springs again. So I was debating doing new shorter bump stops, and than possibly just changing my whole setup. Finally decided what’s the harm, tried out the CS EDC. And my god it made all the difference. It made the ride 100% perfect, body roll is gone, bump/potholes don’t scare me. I’m so happy because I have the stiffness/rigidity I want, without the compromises to the ride I was starting to despise. Guys don’t hesitate, if you feel ride could improve or ride is almost 100%. This is the key! I know I’m sounding like I’m exaggerating, but I’m literally happy to report my usual route to work is nothing but smoothness and car settling in nicely regardless of road condition. Also, hard to explain but car feels so composed and balanced now!

JD

[Alan l.]

How can one get CS EDC coded to their car?

[PayamFSU]

Waiting on THOR app to add it will be the complete package

[JDE92M3]

I used Alex Alpine, but there are other vendors and tunes that offer it as well.

JD

[matty088]

I used alex. very worth having him code. His price reasonable.

[jfritz27]

He guys, trying to sort this out... I have a '17 ZCP, and for some time I've had the CS EDC calibration coded. Separately, due to perceiving some excessive front-end dartiness on the track under hard braking at end of straight last season (with front static toe ~0), I decided to upgrade my front tension arm bushings to the Rogue Street version.

I haven't yet had chance to test these on the track with respect to the original dartiness issue, but I'm now perceiving a change in the dampening characteristics of the car in daily driving. I'm aware that upgraded bushings can increase overall harshness, but I feel almost as if my ride has gotten slightly more bouncy, and overall the car feels more unsettled over bumps.

In my research prior to proceeding with the FTAB upgrade, I hadn't come across this phenomenon as an anticipated consequence, but certainly there's a lot I don't know about suspensions at this point. Generally, it seems that FTAB upgrades are discussed as improving overall handling performance and road feel (with some expected NVH increase depending on the design), but this unsettled feeling is a surprise. I'm considering getting the CS calibration un-coded and see if that does anything, but wanted to throw it out to others first.... So I guess this is part a CS EDC question, but also part FTAB question.

Any thoughts/input appreciated, as always.... Thx

[clutchdj]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

He guys, trying to sort this out... I have a '17 ZCP, and for some time I've had the CS EDC calibration coded. Separately, due to perceiving some excessive front-end dartiness on the track under hard braking at end of straight last season (with front static toe ~0), I decided to upgrade my front tension arm bushings to the Rogue Street version.

I haven't yet had chance to test these on the track with respect to the original dartiness issue, but I'm now perceiving a change in the dampening characteristics of the car in daily driving. I'm aware that upgraded bushings can increase overall harshness, but I feel almost as if my ride has gotten slightly more bouncy, and overall the car feels more unsettled over bumps.

In my research prior to proceeding with the FTAB upgrade, I hadn't come across this phenomenon as an anticipated consequence, but certainly there's a lot I don't know about suspensions at this point. Generally, it seems that FTAB upgrades are discussed as improving overall handling performance and road feel (with some expected NVH increase depending on the design), but this unsettled feeling is a surprise. I'm considering getting the CS calibration un-coded and see if that does anything, but wanted to throw it out to others first.... So I guess this is part a CS EDC question, but also part FTAB question.

Any thoughts/input appreciated, as always.... Thx

Sounds like a bit of a toe issue and not so much of a damper deflection issue. Try running a little toe-in (+0.10) on the front axle if you are still at zero. That should help with the high speed braking

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

He guys, trying to sort this out... I have a '17 ZCP, and for some time I've had the CS EDC calibration coded. Separately, due to perceiving some excessive front-end dartiness on the track under hard braking at end of straight last season (with front static toe ~0), I decided to upgrade my front tension arm bushings to the Rogue Street version.

I haven't yet had chance to test these on the track with respect to the original dartiness issue, but I'm now perceiving a change in the dampening characteristics of the car in daily driving. I'm aware that upgraded bushings can increase overall harshness, but I feel almost as if my ride has gotten slightly more bouncy, and overall the car feels more unsettled over bumps.

In my research prior to proceeding with the FTAB upgrade, I hadn't come across this phenomenon as an anticipated consequence, but certainly there's a lot I don't know about suspensions at this point. Generally, it seems that FTAB upgrades are discussed as improving overall handling performance and road feel (with some expected NVH increase depending on the design), but this unsettled feeling is a surprise. I'm considering getting the CS calibration un-coded and see if that does anything, but wanted to throw it out to others first.... So I guess this is part a CS EDC question, but also part FTAB question.

Any thoughts/input appreciated, as always.... Thx

Check your alignment, but assuming everything else is ok, the FTAB will defiantly affect the spring and damper behavior on the car.

When the tire hits a bump as it's driving forward, the wheel has to "get out of the way" of the road in order to allow the car to keep moving forward. There are a few ways this happens:

1. the tire deflects
2. the wheel moves rearward (recession)
3. the wheel moves upward

In a road car, these things happen all at once, and how much of each depends on the design and tuning parameters of the suspension. In the same order as above, these parameters are:

1. Tire radial stiffness
2. Bushing stiffness, control arm stiffness, and suspension geometry in the rearward direction
3. Spring and damper stiffness.

As you change any one parameter, the suspension can't move in that particular direction as much anymore so it has to either deflect more in the other directions or else the vehicle couldn't make it over the road impact.

In your specific case, the main job of the tension arm is to provide compliance for the wheel to move rearward when it hits an impact.

Stiffening this bushing means the wheel has to move upward more or the tire has to deflect more to accommodate the bump.

Both of these will have the effect of driving more energy into the suspension in the vertical direction than it was designed to properly dampen.

A secondary effect is that with less rearward motion, the strut and upper mount are not exposed to as much bending load. This is a often considered good thing, but high bending loads increase friction in a damper, and friction does play a crucial role in damping certain motions and suspensions are tuned and balanced around a certain amount of damper friction. So in your case, reduced friction is just adding to the bouncy feeling.

Running a mismatched EDC calibration makes it worse because your setup isn't properly damping road inputs even before the tension arm upgrade, so it'll be even worse now.

It's not really possible to tell you which calibration will suite your set up better, other than to say that most likely any of the factory matched set ups will likely be better than a mismatched set up. What I mean by "better" is that if I were to evaluate them I'd find fewer technical problems with the damping of the fully matched set up. Depending on what you look for and what you're sensitive to that doesn't mean you'll like it better, but it's a place to start.

[clutchdj]

That is an excellent explanation.

[jfritz27]

Thanks so much Racer20, that makes a lot of sense (to me at least). Thank you for taking the time to delve into some of the basic physics of the principles involved, that was exactly what I was looking for.

I guess I'll give the standard ZCP EDC calibration a try and see if that feels any better.

[matty088]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

Thanks so much Racer20, that makes a lot of sense (to me at least). Thank you for taking the time to delve into some of the basic physics of the principles involved, that was exactly what I was looking for.

I guess I'll give the standard ZCP EDC calibration a try and see if that feels any better.

Any results ?

Pretty sure cs edc is a Downgrade when running oem ZCP hardware. And I am talking about on the street. While I have some track time in the car I don’t have enough skill to press the car to its limits.

[jfritz27]

Originally Posted by matty088

Any results ?

Pretty sure cs edc is a Downgrade when running oem ZCP hardware. And I am talking about on the street. While I have some track time in the car I don’t have enough skill to press the car to its limits.

So I kinda got busy/distracted and forgot to get the re-coding done before my first couple track days of the season. I will say that on the track, the front end felt pretty good. Granted, I was running in Sport+ suspension, and my previous comments in relation to street driving were with me in my usual Comfort. So if there was weird dampening issues going on, full stiff may have helped to mitigate to some extent. And i was able to achieve my personal best at Thunderbolt, so I guess that counts for something.

I did notice however, now that I have a bit more experience overall, I think I'm getting too much mid-corner oversteer. I'm not sure that the upgraded FTABs could explain that. Possible I suppose that the CS EDC could be playing a part there. My rear camber is -2.1, so a healthy amount, with 0.05" toe-in each side. It is also the case that I'm on different tires now (NT01 vs 71R previously), so there's that too. I may need to lower my rear a bit, and/or add a bit more toe-in, but likely will first get the CS EDC out of there and see what impact that has alone. Will report back if I can conclude anything.... a lot of variables and subtleties in this suspension stuff for sure!

[matty088]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

So I kinda got busy/distracted and forgot to get the re-coding done before my first couple track days of the season. I will say that on the track, the front end felt pretty good. Granted, I was running in Sport+ suspension, and my previous comments in relation to street driving were with me in my usual Comfort. So if there was weird dampening issues going on, full stiff may have helped to mitigate to some extent. And i was able to achieve my personal best at Thunderbolt, so I guess that counts for something.

I did notice however, now that I have a bit more experience overall, I think I'm getting too much mid-corner oversteer. I'm not sure that the upgraded FTABs could explain that. Possible I suppose that the CS EDC could be playing a part there. My rear camber is -2.1, so a healthy amount, with 0.05" toe-in each side. It is also the case that I'm on different tires now (NT01 vs 71R previously), so there's that too. I may need to lower my rear a bit, and/or add a bit more toe-in, but likely will first get the CS EDC out of there and see what impact that has alone. Will report back if I can conclude anything.... a lot of variables and subtleties in this suspension stuff for sure!

Great. I’d love to hear any feedback once You go back. My car is just a street car. I think the rear end would actually have more grip with the cs edc. I think the rear is much softer than ZCP which could mean more weight transfer and more grip. In fact the rear ended is where I immediately noticed the difference when I switched from ZCP to cs. It’s too soft for me.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

So I kinda got busy/distracted and forgot to get the re-coding done before my first couple track days of the season. I will say that on the track, the front end felt pretty good. Granted, I was running in Sport+ suspension, and my previous comments in relation to street driving were with me in my usual Comfort. So if there was weird dampening issues going on, full stiff may have helped to mitigate to some extent. And i was able to achieve my personal best at Thunderbolt, so I guess that counts for something.

I did notice however, now that I have a bit more experience overall, I think I'm getting too much mid-corner oversteer. I'm not sure that the upgraded FTABs could explain that. Possible I suppose that the CS EDC could be playing a part there. My rear camber is -2.1, so a healthy amount, with 0.05" toe-in each side. It is also the case that I'm on different tires now (NT01 vs 71R previously), so there's that too. I may need to lower my rear a bit, and/or add a bit more toe-in, but likely will first get the CS EDC out of there and see what impact that has alone. Will report back if I can conclude anything.... a lot of variables and subtleties in this suspension stuff for sure!

Your rear alignment is a likely culprit for the oversteer you experience. That much rear camber will not optimize the contact patch with NT01 and that little rear toe will make the rear twitchier. As a reference, I use -1.6deg camber and 0.14" (18min) toe-in for rear alignment.

I doubt the CS EDC would make much difference in steady state cornering (mid corner), but I do believe it is best to use the EDC coding that is matched to the hardware for optimal performance.

[jfritz27]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Your rear alignment is a likely culprit for the oversteer you experience. That much rear camber will not optimize the contact patch with NT01 and that little rear toe will make the rear twitchier. As a reference, I use -1.6deg camber and 0.14" (18min) toe-in for rear alignment.

I doubt the CS EDC would make much difference in steady state cornering (mid corner), but I do believe it is best to use the EDC coding that is matched to the hardware for optimal performance.

Thanks for your input. Interesting -- I hadn't considered that I had TOO much negative rear camber, but I suppose it does make sense that for the average, relatively flat corner, that -2.1 may be working against me.

When you say 0.14" of toe-in, is that per side, or do you mean 0.07" per side (0.14" total)?

Much appreciated.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by jfritz27

Thanks for your input. Interesting -- I hadn't considered that I had TOO much negative rear camber, but I suppose it does make sense that for the average, relatively flat corner, that -2.1 may be working against me.

When you say 0.14" of toe-in, is that per side, or do you mean 0.07" per side (0.14" total)?

Much appreciated.

0.14" per side. I use the M4GTS rear toe alignment specs that has slightly more rear toe-in, which improves stability under braking.

I had also started with more rear camber on my first F82, but quickly found out that my tread temperatures were higher on the inside. Lowering rear camber balanced out temperature distribution and rear tire wear.

[Just Apex It]

Originally Posted by JDE92M3

Ok boys! I took the plunge. I have a non-ZCP car added swift springs and almost wanted to remove them. The bounce, the ride quality, everything about it almost felt unacceptable. Than I got the ZCP EDC coded in, made a world of a difference. It made the ride about 90-95% perfect. The issue was the car drove like a dream and had zero body roll on roads that were near perfection. But if an abrupt bump or potholes showed up, this is where I almost wanted to get rid of the springs again. So I was debating doing new shorter bump stops, and than possibly just changing my whole setup. Finally decided what's the harm, tried out the CS EDC. And my god it made all the difference. It made the ride 100% perfect, body roll is gone, bump/potholes don't scare me. I'm so happy because I have the stiffness/rigidity I want, without the compromises to the ride I was starting to despise. Guys don't hesitate, if you feel ride could improve or ride is almost 100%. This is the key! I know I'm sounding like I'm exaggerating, but I'm literally happy to report my usual route to work is nothing but smoothness and car settling in nicely regardless of road condition. Also, hard to explain but car feels so composed and balanced now!

JD

After reading this comment, I was extremely excited to have this done. When I first installed my KW HAS kit the car would crash over bumps and rode harsh. I had begun to wonder "Oh no, what have I done" and if I had made a mistake not getting coilovers. After having the EDC coded to the CS settings, everything is absolutely amazing again. The valving for the CS settings is so much better and matches up much nicer with the KW HAS springs and the car is comfortable and composed again. Absolutely fantastic setup right now and I'm glad I did it. I hope this helps anyone on the fence about doing either or.