S55 Blown Engine Failure *****UPDATE FROM BMWNA 9/28/15 *****

[S65V8]

Originally Posted by mlovernotafighter

That's true.

I guess your ID isn't true either

[M4TW]

People who start threads like this should realize that it's much like reporting your wife missing to the police.

You quickly become the prime suspect.

[Bmwguy11]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Some people have different ethics ....

Or for some of us, it has nothing to do with ethics, and everything with being intelligent about what you say or more importantly don't say. Don't talk to cops, rule number 1 above all else. Volunteering information is never the best idea.

There is a youtube video that every person should watch.

[yosman8]

Originally Posted by M4TW

People who start threads like this should realize that it's much like reporting your wife missing to the police.

You quickly become the prime suspect.

Well, continuing that metaphor: I hope you all don't just assume the obvious and crucify me...

[Fast4d]

this reminds me of BMW denying warranty to a friend's S1000rr

his engine dropped a valve. BMW said he over revved by 150rpm. they went back and forth for a few weeks and BMW came through and warrantied his new engine.

[cazz]

Just showing the engine was over revved won't be enough to deny the claim. BMW will have to show that the engine damage was caused by the this event and it was misuse/abuse. They can't just say "engine was revved too high, warranty voided".

My questions:
Have they looked in the engine to see what really happened? If they find a dropped valve, then the over rev theory might stand a chance. But what if they find all the valves intact and broken connecting rod going through the block?

How does the rev limiter on the M3/M4 work? Typically the engine has to sense the rpms are too high and then cuts fuel. If the software is a little slow or the fuel cut isn't instantaneous then 122 rpms beyond the limit is to be expected. There has to be some margin in the red line, so I'm not sure I believe that 122 rpms over the rev limiter causes a catastrophic failure.

[DBACE]

I found this thread interesting. OP has driven over something that injured engine and had repairs done. OP has driven at a track and mysterious hole in block develops and promotes leakage of coolant into engine. OP defines parameters in which engine has been operated and notes video shows when it occurs. BMW IDs abuse of engine is cause of catastrophic failure. OP seeks advice on how to avoid paying 30k fee involved in acquiring new engine. Due to lack of evidence provided by OP and BMW there is insufficient OQE, observable quality evidence, to provide valuable feedback. OP it sounds like you have pushed the boundaries of your car and are omitting some details and should pay since you played. Post your video evidence and if possible post the BMW readout of your data stream. Maybe better feedback can be ascertained at that time.

Edit, the fact you are reading any hostility in the above is telling. The quality of any feedback given could be much better if you're earnestly seeking judicious advice from forum members.

[yosman8]

?? I'm not omitting details. I just don't believe I caused this failure. no need for the hostility. also, I will not be posting the video, but it corroborates my account. I will try to find out the km that the over rev occurred at.

[mlovernotafighter]

Originally Posted by Bmwguy11

Or for some of us, it has nothing to do with ethics, and everything with being intelligent about what you say or more importantly don't say. Don't talk to cops, rule number 1 above all else. Volunteering information is never the best idea.

There is a youtube video that every person should watch.

+1 - let the "cops" tell you what you did, why divulge something that doesn't need to be said.

[SpaceGhost]

Contact Steve Lehto. He is a lawyer who guest posts on Jalopnik frequently. He does Lemon Law and automotive consumer cases...very knowledgeable.

[Reid]

Originally Posted by DBACE

OP has driven at a track and mysterious hole in block develops and promotes leakage of coolant into engine. OP defines parameters in which engine has been operated and notes video shows when it occurs.

Originally Posted by DBACE

OP it sounds like you have pushed the boundaries of your car and are omitting some details and should pay since you played.

Driving on the track does not constitute abuse. M cars love to stretch their legs on the track.

Originally Posted by DBACE

BMW IDs abuse of engine is cause of catastrophic failure.

Where was this stated?

Originally Posted by DBACE

Due to lack of evidence provided by OP and BMW there is insufficient OQE, observable quality evidence, to provide valuable feedback.

The lack of OQE says something in itself.

Performing on the track is something that M cars have always done well, this is not "abusive" at all. These cars will happily cruise at 152 mph for extended amounts of time. A slight over rev does not cause a rod to exit the block.

The most likely culprit so far is an incomplete repair to an oil starved engine.

This really does not seem like one of those situations involving a lying owner, a JB4 and orange wax or a 1.5 psi pressure differential and a curb.

[cays]

Originally Posted by SpaceGhost

Contact Steve Lehto. He is a lawyer who guest posts on Jalopnik frequently. He does Lemon Law and automotive consumer cases...very knowledgeable.

Totally agree. Take a breath, pull back and get educated on all your options. Stop talking to your dealer and BMW until after you do this...nothing you say off-the-cuff at this moment is likely to result in an immediate, favorable outcome.

[dondula]

contact a local lemon law attorney near you, get all copies of service history on the car and repairs made, including a copy of your current situation. Turn it all over to an attorney. Most lemon law attorneys will take the case for free when it involves significant failures ESP when it is with luxury car groups. The attorneys will take their fee out of the settlement.

They will help you reach a settlement, either a cash settlement or a full buy back from BMW, at that point you will just need to shop for a new car...

Obviously the attorney's will advise you to take a settlement and not go to court, in which case if you do go to court and you lose, then you will be responsible for your own attorney fees and the other parties.. Could also risk a counter suit.

So maybe in the end, BMW will agree to settle by replacing the engine under warranty to make this problem go away. Cheaper for them to do it that way then to shell out cash or a buy back on the car..

[CanAutM3]

7722RPM RPM in 4th gear on a 6MT coincides nicely with ~152mph. So it is very possible that you over-revved the engine by downshifting in 4th when the speed was still to high. I see many students making that type of mistake as they hurry the downshift when approaching a corner at high speed. However, as others have stated, I don't think such a light over-rev could be the only cause of the catastrophic failure you experienced.

Also do note that the event at the origin of the catastrophic failure could have happened way before. The original event could have caused a damage that slowly progressed resulting in the catastrophic failure. So don think it is forcibly something that happened in the short moments preceding the catastrophic failure that caused it.

[yosman8]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

7722RPM RPM in 4th gear on a 6MT coincides nicely with ~152mph. So it is very possible that you over-revved the engine by downshifting in 4th when the speed was still to high. I see many students making that type of mistake as they hurry the downshift when approaching a corner at high speed. However, as others have stated, I don't think such a light over-rev could be the only cause of the catastrophic failure you experienced.

Also do note that the event at the origin of the catastrophic failure could have happened way before. The original event could have caused a damage that slowly progressed resulting in the catastrophic failure. So don think it is forcibly something that happened in the short moments preceding the catastrophic failure that caused it.

I don't remember specifically doing this that day but it sounds possible. I would also agree that such a minor over-rev would cause such damage though. Looking into possible damage from the previous incident.

[Jtjjen]

Originally Posted by tifosielia

The overrev isn't viewable by the dealers. It's collected using ISTA and a file is sent to PUMA. They don't want people knowing where it is stored. (Techs aren't trusted with this info, same reason dealers can't write keys anymore, they can overnight them though)

The exact milage in kilometers should be saved with the freeze frame. Ask them for the exact milage.

What is ISTA and who is PUMA? I did a search for Puma and all I found was a Germand shoe company.

[Vigilant]

Originally Posted by Jtjjen

What is ISTA and who is PUMA? I did a search for Puma and all I found was a Germand shoe company.

This is from BMW AG...

Integrated Service Technical Application (ISTA)
"ISTA or the ISTA workshop system consists of several functionally oriented system components that communicate with each other via LAN, WLAN and Internet. The entire system supplies up-to-date diagnostic data and information from BMW headquarters. The primary applications of the terminal devices are powerful diagnostics on the vehicle, with various options for vehicle identification for highly specific information searches and guided troubleshooting. The associated software is a client/server solution known as ISTA. The ISTA client software is installed on the Integrated Service Information Display (ISID) operator devices and the workshop PC. It communicates with the ISTA server software that runs on the Integrated Service Information Server (ISIS)"...."The ISTA/P programming system is an ISPI application and stands for Integrated Service Technical Application/Programming. ISTA/P is used to process all coded, programmed and enable-dependent control modules in BMW Group vehicles."

Basically, BMW shop hooks up your vehicle to local shop computer. Information is sent to ISIS and BMWNA/AG for analysis. Corrective action is based upon this info for your vehicle.

PUMA

PUMA "is a worldwide BMW database of all reported problems and corresponding fixes. The acronym means Problem and Measures Management Aftersales or in German: Problem und Mebnahmenmanagement Aftersales."

If your car has been at the dealer for issues that need authorization from higher up in BMW, or the tech is having a problem and needs field engineers to give their input, a PUMA case is opened. The dealer opens the case such that the mothership in Germany can evaluate the issue, attempt to replicate the problem, and provide a resolution.

[hellrotm]

Hope you don't get stuck with the bill. There is another thread about a hydrolocked M4 from driving through water. Different situation, but couldn't believe the $35k bill for a new engine.

[Jtjjen]

Originally Posted by Vigilant

This is from BMW AG...

Integrated Service Technical Application (ISTA)
"ISTA or the ISTA workshop system consists of several functionally oriented system components that communicate with each other via LAN, WLAN and Internet. The entire system supplies up-to-date diagnostic data and information from BMW headquarters. The primary applications of the terminal devices are powerful diagnostics on the vehicle, with various options for vehicle identification for highly specific information searches and guided troubleshooting. The associated software is a client/server solution known as ISTA. The ISTA client software is installed on the Integrated Service Information Display (ISID) operator devices and the workshop PC. It communicates with the ISTA server software that runs on the Integrated Service Information Server (ISIS)"...."The ISTA/P programming system is an ISPI application and stands for Integrated Service Technical Application/Programming. ISTA/P is used to process all coded, programmed and enable-dependent control modules in BMW Group vehicles."

Basically, BMW shop hooks up your vehicle to local shop computer. Information is sent to ISIS and BMWNA/AG for analysis. Corrective action is based upon this info for your vehicle.

PUMA

PUMA "is a worldwide BMW database of all reported problems and corresponding fixes. The acronym means Problem and Measures Management Aftersales or in German: Problem und Mebnahmenmanagement Aftersales."

If your car has been at the dealer for issues that need authorization from higher up in BMW, or the tech is having a problem and needs field engineers to give their input, a PUMA case is opened. The dealer opens the case such that the mothership in Germany can evaluate the issue, attempt to replicate the problem, and provide a resolution.

Thanks! I didn't know any of this.

[psedog]

For anyone damning him for driving 152mph. I present to you the owners manual. 155mph is not considered abuse by the manufacturer even during engine break in. This is the first car that I've ever seen this statement in the owners manual. I love this fact

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by psedog

For anyone damning him for driving 152mph. I present to you the owners manual. 155mph is not considered abuse by the manufacturer even during engine break in. This is the first car that I've ever seen this statement in the owners manual. I love this fact

That statement is for AFTER break-in.

[//M]

Originally Posted by Vigilant

This is from BMW AG...

Integrated Service Technical Application (ISTA)
"ISTA or the ISTA workshop system consists of several functionally oriented system components that communicate with each other via LAN, WLAN and Internet. The entire system supplies up-to-date diagnostic data and information from BMW headquarters. The primary applications of the terminal devices are powerful diagnostics on the vehicle, with various options for vehicle identification for highly specific information searches and guided troubleshooting. The associated software is a client/server solution known as ISTA. The ISTA client software is installed on the Integrated Service Information Display (ISID) operator devices and the workshop PC. It communicates with the ISTA server software that runs on the Integrated Service Information Server (ISIS)"...."The ISTA/P programming system is an ISPI application and stands for Integrated Service Technical Application/Programming. ISTA/P is used to process all coded, programmed and enable-dependent control modules in BMW Group vehicles."

Basically, BMW shop hooks up your vehicle to local shop computer. Information is sent to ISIS and BMWNA/AG for analysis. Corrective action is based upon this info for your vehicle.

PUMA

PUMA "is a worldwide BMW database of all reported problems and corresponding fixes. The acronym means Problem and Measures Management Aftersales or in German: Problem und Mebnahmenmanagement Aftersales."

If your car has been at the dealer for issues that need authorization from higher up in BMW, or the tech is having a problem and needs field engineers to give their input, a PUMA case is opened. The dealer opens the case such that the mothership in Germany can evaluate the issue, attempt to replicate the problem, and provide a resolution.

Spot on.... ISTA is the diagnostic/programming software the dealer uses. It also has a connection to BMW AG/US Aftersales so engineers can work/view the car as if they were sitting in the dealer service bay with a tablet. An engine replacement on a M would require a PUMA engineer looking through the car data remotely before it is approved.

German engineers only get involved if its something crazy. But PUMA has engineers who sift through the car for major repairs to make sure the requested warranty repair is required/ will work/ will fix the problem entirely and they also have regional techs that can go in person if required. For an M engine replacement they may very well send a regional tech to approve it. (The actual work is handled by a senior tech at the dealer once approved by PUMA. (since its an M, they're pretty good about putting the shop foreman on it or another long time tech)

That's the process. I wish you luck.. BMW has a pretty decent goodwill policy overall, so they may still cover you even though technically they're off the hook right now. Id look into convincing insurance this is related to the first incident. Maybe suggest to them a piece of debris was caught in the motor from the shattered oil pan. And debris obstructed the oil squirter on cyl 4 partially for example.

I'd agree that unless there is valvetrain damage the over rev probably wasn't the root cause. If BMW denies it in the end.. You may want to consider paying them to find a root cause..

There isn't too many things that could make a block fail internally except overheating, under lubrication or foreign matter ingestion. Or obviously a casting flaw.. But that's pretty doubtful.

Edit: re-read first post. #4 plug is seized not good... Sounds like perhaps #4 grenaded.

OP did the car turn off instantly and go neutral or did it clack to a stop..

Coolant leak sounds like it could be an effect of grenaded #4.. I don't want to speculate too much.

Can they pull the #4 injector... Guessing it's beat to a pulp.