09-17-2013, 07:43 PM | #45 |
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I see no qualitative and little to no quantitative differences between the dyno I posted and the one you posted with regards to the 1M power roll off. In both plots the power simply stops increasing at around 5250 rpm and then actually decreases as rpms increase to redline. The curve is closest to the RED curve I posted in my cartoon-ish chart, except instead of having a positive slope past peak it actually has a negative slope (again it rolls off). A very high performance NA engine such as the S65 has an ENTIRELY different qualitative and quantitative nature showing almost a perfect linear curve up to redline. In fact the M3s curve looks most like the PURPLE curve I posted but even closer to slope of the RED curve continuing on another 3000+ rpm past the 1Ms roll off point. This exactly explains the feeling and character of the cars above around 5250 rpm. The 1M feels in comparison to the M3 like it is dying. In some ways it is - it is entirely suffocating and just can't pump any more air. Of course to each their own. As I've said the 1M is a very nice car. It is the character and performance of the engine in comparisom to the S65 that is the most compelling difference. As to chassis, handling, braking etc. there are minor differences and some advantages to the 1M, but the engines are simply like night and day.
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09-17-2013, 09:16 PM | #46 |
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I like the M1. But, I didn't fit in it comfortably. So, the IS with overboost was the right choice (for me) until the M4 comes out.
I personally like the "surge" and typically drive in SPORT-SPORT. I've raced a lot of M3s so far and beaten most off the line. Haven't gone too fast for their HP to get me. So, I'm a happy with my ///M2.5 Can't wait for the M4. Wish they would come out with the engine specs as well. |
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09-18-2013, 01:12 AM | #47 | |
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It takes more then 30whp to trap 4 miles an hour faster... Seriously, it does and trap speeds don't lie. An e9X M3 is faster 0-60 than an 335IS. More rubber and an LSD just to start. Real sports cars have an LSD in them.
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09-18-2013, 01:04 PM | #48 |
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Um. Okay. I'll let the other iS owners pipe in on that one.
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09-18-2013, 01:18 PM | #49 | |
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It is not the last time you will be hearing that these two engines have around 30 whp difference by the way, it is indeed curious that you heard about it first time. BMW's advertised 80 hp crank difference is simply not true.
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09-18-2013, 01:30 PM | #50 | |
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Fair enough everything you say, for a driver who got used to high rpm NA V8 1M must be a confusing experience, acceleration wise. All I want to say is there are two facts which seem crystal clear to me: 1M's sweet spot is between 2000 to 6000 rpm, especially 2500 to 5500 is very strong. Contrary to this, M3's sweet spot is 6000 to 8400 where it redlines (corrrect me if I am wrong on this) and closer to redline is better. As a result, my understanding and experience is whereever you have lights, traffic, speed limits, people, buildings etc. etc. whic I call the real world, driving with 1M is a more "utilitarian" experience because you simply can benefit from the sweet spot of the engine very frequently, as a matter of fact, all the time. Are you telling me that other than track you can and you do keep the M3 over 6000 rpm all the time? I hope you don't, for the sake of public health and safety. I never doubted the quality of the S65 as an engineering marvel but it always seemed to me that it has a much narrower window of enjoying it where it makes a difference vs. a more "work horse" type of FI engine, sad maybe but I feel that it is the truth. I actually was glad that 1M came with a tweaked N54 and not a detuned (or not) S65. I would go buy the E90 sedan instead of the 1M if that would be the case. It is this engine which is explosive almost immediately after idle, mated to a basically shortened M3 chassis, that gives the 1M its terrier like agility and readiness. I find it loveable and don't care too much if it looses to cars like M3 on long straights. Likes dictate preferances as always.
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"The mark of a great car is one whose overall competence exceeds what you should expect from its individual components and the 1M does just that", Chris Harris.
BMW 1M-SOLD-: TECH: Evolve Race+N55mids, Evolve IC, Michelin PSS, ER cp, aFe filter, CDVx, Vorshlag camber plates, BMS OCC EXTERIOR: trunk spoiler, blacklines, black grills, IND goodies INTERIOR: Alcantara steering wheel, steel pedals, custom mats, MPower e-brake. Last edited by ozinaldo; 09-18-2013 at 01:43 PM.. |
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09-18-2013, 05:09 PM | #51 | |
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You really got me with your anecdotal facts. Bravo. Show me how a car that runs high 13's@ a lame 105mph is faster.
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Low end torque is completely meaningless for a tarmac race car. You do not spend your time driving in the 2,500-3,800 rpm band and you do not own a rally car or a diesel. The 1M is over 250 pounds lighter and uses much of the same suspension/chassis bits from the M3. It should be much faster on the track than it is over the M3 but it's not. I have no doubt if it had an S65 like the racing Z4 it would be faster than it currently is. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html I'm starting to see a trend in this forum of people who should know more than they pretend to. We need a sub forum for anecdotal facts and TORQUES!. We can call it advanced tech.
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09-18-2013, 05:13 PM | #52 | |
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Except for the point that I have quoted though. To fully assess a powertrain potential, the shape of the power curve as well as gearing are important considerations. When I mention the impact of gearing, it is not about multiplication of the torque to the drive wheels, but rather the RPM range used in each gear during a maximum acceleration run, which is dependent on the ratio that the gears have relative to each other. Going back to your power curve cartoon, comparing the red and purple engines in the same car with the same transmission, assuming that the gearing would require both engines to use the RPM band defined by the black bars on my modified cartoon, both engines would have very similar performance because the average power produced in that range is very similar for both engines. Furher, the car with the red engine would most likely pull ahead beacuse it is producing more power early on. The purple (edited) car would match the speed, but would stay behind. This is all very theoretical, but I am sure you get the drift . Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-18-2013 at 08:29 PM.. |
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09-18-2013, 05:45 PM | #53 |
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09-18-2013, 05:48 PM | #54 | |
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Kind of an apologists point of view you have... That being said should you provide solid numbers different than my estimates I'm willing to reconsider your point of view on the relevance of this to the power the 1M makes compared to the M3. On a related point, all physics based performance simulations I have done and compared/validated a wide variety of published test results do not indicate the M3 is under not overrated on power. However, just like the 335i and F10 M5 the 1M is pretty clearly underrated to the tune of about 15-20 hp.
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09-18-2013, 05:53 PM | #55 | |
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Yes of course the engines offer dramatically different characters. One takes a bit more volume and perhaps gear shifting to get the highest level of performance. For those unable or unwilling to do so the 1M is perhaps the better choice.
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09-18-2013, 05:59 PM | #56 | ||
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Cheers.
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09-18-2013, 06:20 PM | #57 | |
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"The mark of a great car is one whose overall competence exceeds what you should expect from its individual components and the 1M does just that", Chris Harris.
BMW 1M-SOLD-: TECH: Evolve Race+N55mids, Evolve IC, Michelin PSS, ER cp, aFe filter, CDVx, Vorshlag camber plates, BMS OCC EXTERIOR: trunk spoiler, blacklines, black grills, IND goodies INTERIOR: Alcantara steering wheel, steel pedals, custom mats, MPower e-brake. Last edited by ozinaldo; 09-18-2013 at 06:34 PM.. |
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09-18-2013, 06:25 PM | #58 | |
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09-18-2013, 06:25 PM | #59 | |
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A: 2,18 m2 Cw 0,35 Cw x A : 0,77 Front down force: 5kg. (45 Newton) Rear lift at 200 km/h: 37 kg. (359 Newton) says the printed magazine. French Le Moniteur Auto had a very detailed test on 1M back in June 2011 and there they mention the SCX as 0,80 which is worse than Sport Auto data, but I think Sport Auto is more careful about the data they provide plus there was no other details on aero in the French magazine. By the way, it would be better if you don't start your posts in a friendly automotive forum by putting words like "rubbish", even if you are right you loose respect of others and for a good reason, so let's avoid that.
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"The mark of a great car is one whose overall competence exceeds what you should expect from its individual components and the 1M does just that", Chris Harris.
BMW 1M-SOLD-: TECH: Evolve Race+N55mids, Evolve IC, Michelin PSS, ER cp, aFe filter, CDVx, Vorshlag camber plates, BMS OCC EXTERIOR: trunk spoiler, blacklines, black grills, IND goodies INTERIOR: Alcantara steering wheel, steel pedals, custom mats, MPower e-brake. Last edited by ozinaldo; 09-18-2013 at 06:50 PM.. |
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09-18-2013, 08:15 PM | #60 | ||
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Here's why: the red car accelerates faster until the power lines cross. All this time it will have more speed than the purple car, therefore traveling more distance than the purple car. Only when the power lines cross does the purple car start to out accelerate the red car, but even at this point, the red car is still traveling at a faster rate than the purple car. From that point on, the purple car out accelerates the red car until it matches the speed of the red car. So during the entire acceleration run, the red car has a higher velocity and therefore travels a greater distance. I know, a bit over simplified, but still explains the concept . Again, this is theoretical. Considering aero drag and other factors, the outcome will be somewhat different, but the general concept remains true. My point is that it is not only peak power that counts, but rather the power produced over the rev range used by each gear. If the cars were to have a CVT that holds the RPM constant at the power peak, then yes, the power peak is all that matters. The purple car would walk away. But not the case with finite ratio gearboxes . Note: I understand that the purple car would pull away from the red car if the acceleration run is started where the purple car makes more power than the red car, but my example was limited to a single gear pull in the rev band limited by the two black lines. Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-18-2013 at 09:59 PM.. |
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09-18-2013, 10:17 PM | #61 | |
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However, 2.18 x .35 is .76 with rounding not .77. And indeed with these values I agree that drag is a pretty reasonably large difference compared to the M3. I stand by my choice of words. Trying to "shame" someone into the belief that their liberal use of the full range of a high rpm engine is somehow more dangerous than accelerating the same way to the same speed is just that, utter rubbish. It is not an insult, just a very firm disagreement.
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09-18-2013, 10:46 PM | #62 | |
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Consider two modified M3. One with 414 hp at 8400 rpm but actually revs a bit higher to 8500 rpm with completely linear power vs. rpm (i.e. a bit more than 414 peak hp). Otherwise this is a standard M-DCT E92 M3. This will be our "purple car". Next we have an identical car with a peak hp of 330 hp at 5000 rpm and also 330 hp up to 8500 rpm (the red car). Purple wins:
Purple will also win all tracks except the tightest ones with corner exit speeds at 30 mph and below. Basically comes down to an 1/8th mi stop light drag race winner vs. everything else... Also to be fair from a drag racing perspective the cars are down to being a drivers race. 0-100, 50-70 or 60-130 absolutely are NOT drivers races though... Increasing the final drive will provide a win for "purple" in 0-60 and cut down the distance "red" is ahead in the 1/4 drag race substantially to about 600-700 feet. FD mods for "red" does more or less nothing... However, this is all a bit unrealistic because no BMW turbo will rev to 8500 for some time (if ever) and also because the new M4 will have a lot more than 330 peak hp...
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09-18-2013, 11:24 PM | #63 |
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09-19-2013, 09:00 AM | #64 | |
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The power graph cartoon you drafted is just that, a cartoon; let's leave it at that. Inputing it in your advanced simulation tools requires a multitude of assumptions that go well beyond the point of this discussion. Let's just focus on the physics concepts. I fully agree that as a single number, the power peak is the best number to assess the performance capabilities of an engines. I have argued that point myself multiple times in various threads. We are on the same page here. However, my point is that to go to the next level to fully understand the capabilities of a powertrain, the power produced over the entire critical RPM range needs to be considered. The critical RPM range being the RPM band used in each gear during a max acceleration run. Arguing that only peak power matters for an engine is a mistake. Going back to the cartoon, the red and purple cars (with the same gearing that uses the RPM band between the two black lines) will have very similar performance. Sometimes the red car at an advantage and sometime the purple car at an advantage despite the purple car having a much higher peak power output (and I am talking all out performance here, not lazy acceleration). This is because they produce the same average power in the critical RPM band (defined by the two vertical black lines on my edited cartoon). Increasing the average power produced in the crtical RPM range will improve all out performance, even if it is done at the expense of reducing the power peak. That is a physics fact. Going back to the overboost discussion, increasing torque below the critical RPM band will not improve ultimate performance, only lazy acceleration. However, if the overboost increases torque/power within the critical RPM band, it will improve ultimate performance. This even if peak power is not increased. Last edited by CanAutM3; 09-19-2013 at 01:04 PM.. |
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09-19-2013, 09:32 AM | #65 |
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I really enjoy getting everyone's perspective on the upcoming M3/M4 and the comparison to existing M products. It's clear that everybody has a lot of passion for their positions and experiences. I can't wait till the next week or so and to see if we get some more concrete details about the M3/M4. Given what information comes out it will be interesting to see how BMW has approached this new vehicle. I believe in the M division and I think we will all be pleasantly surprised by what they have in store for us. Oh, the anticipation!
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