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      12-05-2014, 01:16 AM   #45
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I agree with all the comments about the CCBs. It would be much more informative to most buyers to learn what the reviewers felt about the standard brakes.

When a single option costs over 13% of the base price of the car it throws the whole cost equation off (or at least cars over 30-40k in price when the percentages move the price more).
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      12-05-2014, 06:59 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Chuck,

I pendulum'd my e39 m5 off the road with DSC off once, and the F80 - for all it's advances - is both far more powerful and significant lighter in weight. I have nothing but the utmost respect for it and won't be going DSC off on public roads for a long time. As invasive as MDM is, it's still an excellent middle ground for public roadways.

Thanks for the offer to go for a drive. Next time i'm down there, I'll shoot you a note

This coming year will be my first "track year" ever. Planning on driving the f80 there, tracking it, and driving it home for 2-5 events.
Joe,

Whew, lucky you didn't have contact with anything in the M5! I've not looked into it yet with the F80, but on the E9x M3 the MDM mode is further nanny-ized for the USA, and it is a simple coding toggle to change it to the Euro MDM mode...just a thought.

I'm not familiar with the CCA programs in PA, but the National Capital Chapter puts on a great track program including lots of skidpad work at the large triple skidpad at Summit Point. They are one of the few chapters that have an HPDE program aimed at really providing car control education. Perhaps the chapter in your area has something similar. I think the track that used to be called Beaverun (Pittsburgh International Race Complex) has a large VDA with frequent autocrosses along with car control and HPDE track events.

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      02-26-2015, 12:03 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
C&D has been pooping on the E30/F80 for a few years now….they don't like the new direction of BMW and this is seen in many reviews. Actually the same year the E90 M3 won its last comparo, they ran two reviews of the F30 stating that in a comparison with the base E90, the E90 would win (thus is hardly an argument for shifting ad dollars "paying" for reviews).

For anyone thinks that C&D doesn't matter, IMO I still think they're the best US publication and over the years have provided some pretty good, honest reviews that in general get a lot of corroboration from other journos, enthusiasts and race drivers alike. I guarantee you, certain members of management at BMW do care that the 3 series was knocked off the 10 best list. C&D was so "irrelevant" that every BMW dealership used to carry excerpts of their articles and 10 best lists for distribution. until now I guess.. Oops..
Yeah, carrying excerpts of a magazine does not indicate that you actually put stock in its credence. You just like what it said. Hell, I'd carry excerpts of articles from High Times magazine if they put my product in a positive light.

My biggest complaint about the negative reviews is the insistence on comparing to the LAST M3, and lamenting what's different, or "lost". If you simply take the car for what it is, a wholly independent creation, I think you will see it for its true nature: a brilliant (if not the most brilliant) luxury sport sedan.

I've driven all of the M3 models, at one time or another, and I've owned three different types personally, including the f80. This one is different, to be sure, but I like it the best.

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      03-23-2015, 05:12 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jawwadh View Post
the m4/m3 can be one hell of a "bargain"
I picked up an m4 with the essentials: 19s, hk, dct, and adaptive for 63.2k+TTL... i cant think of any new car that offers this much for that price.
Really? Nice! What was msrp?
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      03-23-2015, 09:24 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by IS350 View Post
Really? Nice! What was msrp?
72k - i did euro delivery
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      03-23-2015, 11:06 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FogCityM3 View Post
C&D has been pooping on the E30/F80 for a few years now….they don't like the new direction of BMW and this is seen in many reviews. Actually the same year the E90 M3 won its last comparo, they ran two reviews of the F30 stating that in a comparison with the base E90, the E90 would win (thus is hardly an argument for shifting ad dollars "paying" for reviews).

For anyone thinks that C&D doesn't matter, IMO I still think they're the best US publication and over the years have provided some pretty good, honest reviews that in general get a lot of corroboration from other journos, enthusiasts and race drivers alike. I guarantee you, certain members of management at BMW do care that the 3 series was knocked off the 10 best list. C&D was so "irrelevant" that every BMW dealership used to carry excerpts of their articles and 10 best lists for distribution. until now I guess.. Oops..

I agree, for me C&D is legit.... they get it and I agree with them. No single publication was a bigger fan of what BMW was doing than C&D. People used to accuse them of being on BMWs payroll because the things they put a high value on like great handling, great steering feedback, smooth thrust, linear braking, heel and toe position, etc. were no longer valued by the masses so they would gripe when BMW would win a comparo over a better value car with more features for the money. They stood their ground despite the tsunami of driving apathy and stayed true to the value of manual transmissions and steering feedback. Now that BMW is no longer doing that, they are right to call it out. Fake sound is fake sound and no matter how many justify it with the mob mentality of "well VW does it so it's OK" it has no place in a purist vehicle....unless BMW is no longer trying to build the ultimate driving machine.

C&D has stayed true to their views that all out performance numbers don't necessarily make a better driving experience. I'm grateful that C&D is still out there to say that the emperor is naked!

This is not to say that I don't like the M3, I do, a lot but there are aspects that are not good in my opinion. A car of this price point should have real sound. My lowly $47K 1M coupe with the lowly N54 twin turbo never sounded as good as the E90 M3, but it was still great sounding without fake sound. BMW should've done the same with the M3. And this whole generation of BMWs is tilted toward the soft side, luxury and infotainment over driving dynamics. The masses don't see it but we are losing the last of the car companies that used to hold driving dynamics sacred. It is important because only BMW consistently offers manuals and rear drive with their sports sedans and their shift to follow Lexus, Infinity and Mercedes into automated, virtualized driving experience is sad thing for many of us.

Finally, this is nothing about hate as so many are ignorantly quick to label anything that is different from their opinion...this is solely based out of love for what BMW has brought us for so many years.
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      03-23-2015, 02:56 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
[...]but there are aspects that are not good in my opinion. A car of this price point should have real sound. My lowly $47K 1M coupe with the lowly N54 twin turbo never sounded as good as the E90 M3, but it was still great sounding without fake sound. BMW should've done the same with the M3.
Sounds is just about perfect.
If you search the forums, you will see plenty of people complaining that the exhaust is too quiet, and plenty more that it's too loud (C&D is in this camp). To me it says that it's just right!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
And this whole generation of BMWs is tilted toward the soft side, luxury and infotainment over driving dynamics. The masses don't see it but we are losing the last of the car companies that used to hold driving dynamics sacred.
F80 M3 is lighter, more powerful, and faster than the predecessor in every way. There are fluff options, but it's up to you whether to pick or skip them.
I call that performance.
Where do you see luxury in that?

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      03-23-2015, 03:52 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
I agree, for me C&D is legit.... they get it and I agree with them. No single publication was a bigger fan of what BMW was doing than C&D. People used to accuse them of being on BMWs payroll because the things they put a high value on like great handling, great steering feedback, smooth thrust, linear braking, heel and toe position, etc. were no longer valued by the masses so they would gripe when BMW would win a comparo over a better value car with more features for the money. They stood their ground despite the tsunami of driving apathy and stayed true to the value of manual transmissions and steering feedback. Now that BMW is no longer doing that, they are right to call it out. Fake sound is fake sound and no matter how many justify it with the mob mentality of "well VW does it so it's OK" it has no place in a purist vehicle....unless BMW is no longer trying to build the ultimate driving machine.

C&D has stayed true to their views that all out performance numbers don't necessarily make a better driving experience. I'm grateful that C&D is still out there to say that the emperor is naked!

This is not to say that I don't like the M3, I do, a lot but there are aspects that are not good in my opinion. A car of this price point should have real sound. My lowly $47K 1M coupe with the lowly N54 twin turbo never sounded as good as the E90 M3, but it was still great sounding without fake sound. BMW should've done the same with the M3. And this whole generation of BMWs is tilted toward the soft side, luxury and infotainment over driving dynamics. The masses don't see it but we are losing the last of the car companies that used to hold driving dynamics sacred. It is important because only BMW consistently offers manuals and rear drive with their sports sedans and their shift to follow Lexus, Infinity and Mercedes into automated, virtualized driving experience is sad thing for many of us.

Finally, this is nothing about hate as so many are ignorantly quick to label anything that is different from their opinion...this is solely based out of love for what BMW has brought us for so many years.
Politicians never let facts get in the way of a good argument. Let's leave politics behind.

First off, the F8x does not make fake exhaust sounds. The exhaust sounds emitting from the tailpipes are as real as any other internal combustion engine has produced. Fake exhaust sound isn't being piped in to the cabin either. Induction sound that would otherwise be muffled by turbos is enhanced as a driver's tool. Most are untroubled by this. The few that are troubled, simply have it unplugged.

Nor has the ride gone soft, limp or virtual. Lots of useful information awaits you in the sticky threads should you wish to brush up on the topic about weight-saving measures taken and doing hard-edged things like bolting the suspension directly to the frame without using bushings. The result is a capable weekend track car that can handle DD duties with aplomb.

On the contrary, the knock on these cars has not been about being too soft, but that they can be too much of a wild child at times. Not for amature drivers as advertised. Yet to me they remain a nimble and capable machine deserving of its heritage.

I swear, this car can't win from winning at times.
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      03-23-2015, 03:59 PM   #53
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I agree with nachob, I don't need my stereo to turn up the "engine" noise when I put the car in Sport Plus. Take out the extra amplifier and give me a button to open the bypass valve.
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      03-24-2015, 08:58 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Politicians never let facts get in the way of a good argument. Let's leave politics behind.

First off, the F8x does not make fake exhaust sounds. The exhaust sounds emitting from the tailpipes are as real as any other internal combustion engine has produced. Fake exhaust sound isn't being piped in to the cabin either. Induction sound that would otherwise be muffled by turbos is enhanced as a driver's tool. Most are untroubled by this. The few that are troubled, simply have it unplugged.

Nor has the ride gone soft, limp or virtual. Lots of useful information awaits you in the sticky threads should you wish to brush up on the topic about weight-saving measures taken and doing hard-edged things like bolting the suspension directly to the frame without using bushings. The result is a capable weekend track car that can handle DD duties with aplomb.

On the contrary, the knock on these cars has not been about being too soft, but that they can be too much of a wild child at times. Not for amature drivers as advertised. Yet to me they remain a nimble and capable machine deserving of its heritage.

I swear, this car can't win from winning at times.
Even though you are Candian, I endorse this message.
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      03-24-2015, 09:02 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Politicians never let facts get in the way of a good argument. Let's leave politics behind.

First off, the F8x does not make fake exhaust sounds. The exhaust sounds emitting from the tailpipes are as real as any other internal combustion engine has produced. Fake exhaust sound isn't being piped in to the cabin either. Induction sound that would otherwise be muffled by turbos is enhanced as a driver's tool. Most are untroubled by this. The few that are troubled, simply have it unplugged.

Nor has the ride gone soft, limp or virtual. Lots of useful information awaits you in the sticky threads should you wish to brush up on the topic about weight-saving measures taken and doing hard-edged things like bolting the suspension directly to the frame without using bushings. The result is a capable weekend track car that can handle DD duties with aplomb.

On the contrary, the knock on these cars has not been about being too soft, but that they can be too much of a wild child at times. Not for amature drivers as advertised. Yet to me they remain a nimble and capable machine deserving of its heritage.

I swear, this car can't win from winning at times.
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      03-24-2015, 10:29 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4TW View Post
Politicians never let facts get in the way of a good argument. Let's leave politics behind.

First off, the F8x does not make fake exhaust sounds. The exhaust sounds emitting from the tailpipes are as real as any other internal combustion engine has produced. Fake exhaust sound isn't being piped in to the cabin either. Induction sound that would otherwise be muffled by turbos is enhanced as a driver's tool. Most are untroubled by this. The few that are troubled, simply have it unplugged.

Nor has the ride gone soft, limp or virtual. Lots of useful information awaits you in the sticky threads should you wish to brush up on the topic about weight-saving measures taken and doing hard-edged things like bolting the suspension directly to the frame without using bushings. The result is a capable weekend track car that can handle DD duties with aplomb.

On the contrary, the knock on these cars has not been about being too soft, but that they can be too much of a wild child at times. Not for amature drivers as advertised. Yet to me they remain a nimble and capable machine deserving of its heritage.

I swear, this car can't win from winning at times.
Ok, I'll go with the political thing too...why not.



"Define Fake?"

Ok, I guess you can say that an enhanced breasts are not faked because it's real skin with an implant boosting it. So, I will call it audialy challenged? Enhanced?

The point as it relates to the post is that Car and Drive also found it annoying and disconnected it. To their dismay they also lost the radio because BMW does not let you simply turn it off. Did you read the review?

Secondly, if you turn it off you significantly reduce engine feedback because BMW invested their time enhancing it through the speakers instead of through the intake and exhaust system. The 1M was also current model twin turbo 3.0 inline six just like the M3 but it has great sound because they put time into it so it is possible.

Third the car is very capable and still a great machine but you can see the emphasis has shifted on all new BMWs much more to comfort and infotainment than pure dynamics. CD was also making the same point. The M3 remains one of the best but it is drowning in the overgadgetization including cameras everywhere and stuff that brings no value, only weight and distraction to the driving experience.

Luckily, you can still order M3 without most of these except for iDrive and the awful screen in the line of sight. Luckily it is still rear drive, and offers manuals so it still remains legit but C&D is right to call it out on the nonesense.

At some point you have to have a threshold and if the stereo is being used to pipe engine sound and the sound engineers are digitally adjusting the tone to make it "pleasant" then it has crossed the threshold.

There are two basic types of guitars...acoustic and electric. If you put a pickup on a guitar it becomes electric...period. Not acoustically optimized or induction amplification, it's simply an electric guitar. I applaud CD for calling it out just like they called BMW out on the weight of the E90 M3.

Ironically, or sadly I guess, you are touting weight reduction on the M3 which came about because CD and other BMW fans griped. We ended up going to 1M after years of waiting to buy an M3. Now they have made an effort at weight and I love that so again, my hope is that BMW will not take the cheap way out with the next M3 and improve the sound acoustically and remain a leader in that not following VW and Ford down the cheap path.
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      03-24-2015, 10:40 AM   #57
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I always find the people complaining about the "fake" noise amusing. As it is technically not true, it isn't fake. Not really anyway.

The fact that many of you are complaining about that as the main issue for the M3/M4 is just funny really. While it isn't the best BMW has done, most of us who just drives without knowing probably wouldn't have even noticed if some reviewer didn't say something about it.

Personally I don't care. I'll be getting my dream car in a few months and I'm already excited. Probably respect the car as much as I can, don't turn off DSC until I know the car and how it handles.
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      03-24-2015, 11:19 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Ok, I'll go with the political thing too...why not.

Forgetting the BMW Porsche 991-esque sound symposer argument, the bigger issue with your post is you said the F8x had "gone soft" when it is far harder edged, sharper and more track capable than the E92. You either; 1. Misspoke. 2. have zero experience driving the car, or 3. zero way in discerning driving dynamics.
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      03-24-2015, 11:28 AM   #59
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I consider myself a performance purist, through and through. However, Active Sound doesn't bother me in the least on my M4. It is there but it isn't intrusive in any way.

However, it does hinder my ability as a tuner to be able to discern engine knock (pre-ignition/detonation). That being said, if I was tuning this engine, I'd be using det cans anyway on top of hopefully being able to log Knock Counts.
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      03-24-2015, 11:30 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L View Post
Forgetting the BMW Porsche 991-esque sound symposer argument, the bigger issue with your post is you said the F8x had "gone soft" when it is far harder edged, sharper and more track capable than the E92. You either; 1. Misspoke. 2. have zero experience driving the car, or 3. zero way in discerning driving dynamics.
This and complaining that the iDrive screen is in the line of sight? Last I checked, I'm not staring at the top center of the dash while driving.

C&D jumped the shark a few years ago in my opinion and seems to contradict their own reviews at every turn. nachob One of the biggest recent flip flops I still can't reconcile from them was putting the F30 on Ten Best list for a couple of years with glowing reviews. Then pulling it from the list and saying it isn't what it used to be while trying to pretend the previous didn't happen.

There are other reviews including having to do with the F8X platform where they love it and then they don't and then they do again......
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      03-24-2015, 11:30 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Ok, I'll go with the political thing too...why not.



"Define Fake?"

Ok, I guess you can say that an enhanced breasts are not faked because it's real skin with an implant boosting it. So, I will call it audialy challenged? Enhanced?

The point as it relates to the post is that Car and Drive also found it annoying and disconnected it. To their dismay they also lost the radio because BMW does not let you simply turn it off. Did you read the review?

Secondly, if you turn it off you significantly reduce engine feedback because BMW invested their time enhancing it through the speakers instead of through the intake and exhaust system. The 1M was also current model twin turbo 3.0 inline six just like the M3 but it has great sound because they put time into it so it is possible.

Third the car is very capable and still a great machine but you can see the emphasis has shifted on all new BMWs much more to comfort and infotainment than pure dynamics. CD was also making the same point. The M3 remains one of the best but it is drowning in the overgadgetization including cameras everywhere and stuff that brings no value, only weight and distraction to the driving experience.

Luckily, you can still order M3 without most of these except for iDrive and the awful screen in the line of sight. Luckily it is still rear drive, and offers manuals so it still remains legit but C&D is right to call it out on the nonesense.

At some point you have to have a threshold and if the stereo is being used to pipe engine sound and the sound engineers are digitally adjusting the tone to make it "pleasant" then it has crossed the threshold.

There are two basic types of guitars...acoustic and electric. If you put a pickup on a guitar it becomes electric...period. Not acoustically optimized or induction amplification, it's simply an electric guitar. I applaud CD for calling it out just like they called BMW out on the weight of the E90 M3.

Ironically, or sadly I guess, you are touting weight reduction on the M3 which came about because CD and other BMW fans griped. We ended up going to 1M after years of waiting to buy an M3. Now they have made an effort at weight and I love that so again, my hope is that BMW will not take the cheap way out with the next M3 and improve the sound acoustically and remain a leader in that not following VW and Ford down the cheap path.
I'm going to keep it short and simple, because I'm on neither side of this argument really.
1) This whole thing about sound gets old. If you drive it and hate it, that's one thing. But there are ways around it. To me, the E46 M3 has never sounded that great from factory, but again, that doesn't stop it from being one of the best M cars ever made. Change the intake, change the exhaust, do whatever you have to.
2) If you say that BMW is shifting towards comfort with the M3/4, then you have no idea what you are talking about, I'm sorry. Your credibility kind of goes out the window when you say that.
3) If you don't get a car because it just simply has a Nav screen now, then that is one hell of a piss poor excuse to skip on a car IMO. Just as ridiculous as a debate I had with another forum member about how push start button and comfort access ruins the driving experience

Again, keep in mind I don't have an F80/2, so it's not like I have a dog in this fight.
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      03-24-2015, 11:36 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
"Define Fake?"

Ok, I guess you can say that an enhanced breasts are not faked because it's real skin with an implant boosting it. So, I will call it audialy challenged? Enhanced?
No, much less egregious than silicon. A far better comparison would be to a push up bra.
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      03-24-2015, 12:03 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
2) If you say that BMW is shifting towards comfort with the M3/4, then you have no idea what you are talking about, I'm sorry. Your credibility kind of goes out the window when you say that.
3) If you don't get a car because it just simply has a Nav screen now, then that is one hell of a piss poor excuse to skip on a car IMO. Just as ridiculous as a debate I had with another forum member about how push start button and comfort access ruins the driving experience

Again, keep in mind I don't have an F80/2, so it's not like I have a dog in this fight.
Regarding #2 -- exactly right. The F8x with its solidly mounted rear subframe is more hard-core than any prior M3 in numerous aspects (although as TC Kline mentions, the electric steering feedback at/near the limits of adhesion is something missed from the hydraulic days), and apparently BMW is getting their fair share of complaints from owners about road noise from the rear end, lol. If you look at everything BMW M did on the F8x platform, it's a very impressive accomplishment from an engineering perspective. One example is the body-in-white torsional and bending rigidity which is one of the stiffest structures ever built for a production car; as the M chief mentioned in his video (on the board here somewhere), the torsional bending number is over 40,000 N-m/degree which is stiffer than caged race cars of the recent past.

Regarding #3 -- I wouldn't buy a car without comfort access anymore. Weight gain is measured in ounces, and it's just wonderful to have. Our E90 330i we ordered a bit over 9 years ago was spec'd with it, and so when I went on my E90 M3 no-sunroof 6MT hunt about 3 years ago, it was one option I wasn't going to miss having. However, on the F8x, for it not to be standard is a crime when $25k cars everywhere nowadays have it standard (i.e. like the rental 2015 Mustang I had recently).

Seriously, everyone should just enjoy each generation of the M3 for exactly what it is and how it was built during its lifespan. Each wasn't/isn't perfect just like there will never be a perfect car. If you went back and drove a bone stock E30 M3 on its 15" 205/55 tires, etc, right now, you'd think it was dog slow, had massive body roll, etc. These cars are all fantastic, and I'd love to have a garage with pristine examples of each generation.

Regards,
Chuck
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      03-24-2015, 12:18 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl L View Post
No, much less egregious than silicon. A far better comparison would be to a push up bra.
Well either or... Would you still say no? That's the real question. I know my answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Regarding #2 -- exactly right. The F8x with its solidly mounted rear subframe is more hard-core than any prior M3 in numerous aspects (although as TC Kline mentions, the electric steering feedback at/near the limits of adhesion is something missed from the hydraulic days), and apparently BMW is getting their fair share of complaints from owners about road noise from the rear end, lol. If you look at everything BMW M did on the F8x platform, it's a very impressive accomplishment from an engineering perspective. One example is the body-in-white torsional and bending rigidity which is one of the stiffest structures ever built for a production car; as the M chief mentioned in his video (on the board here somewhere), the torsional bending number is over 40,000 N-m/degree which is stiffer than caged race cars of the recent past.

Regarding #3 -- I wouldn't buy a car without comfort access anymore. Weight gain is measured in ounces, and it's just wonderful to have. Our E90 330i we ordered a bit over 9 years ago was spec'd with it, and so when I went on my E90 M3 no-sunroof 6MT hunt about 3 years ago, it was one option I wasn't going to miss having. However, on the F8x, for it not to be standard is a crime when $25k cars everywhere nowadays have it standard (i.e. like the rental 2015 Mustang I had recently).

Seriously, everyone should just enjoy each generation of the M3 for exactly what it is and how it was built during its lifespan. Each wasn't/isn't perfect just like there will never be a perfect car. If you went back and drove a bone stock E30 M3 on its 15" 205/55 tires, etc, right now, you'd think it was dog slow, had massive body roll, etc. These cars are all fantastic, and I'd love to have a garage with pristine examples of each generation.

Regards,
Chuck
Agreed. Apart from maybe the E36 and E46, to me, it's almost impossible to compare each M3 to each other. They are so drastically different.

Right now, the M2 is at the top of my list. If it doesn't work out, I'll hold out for an F80 LCI. I'm skipping the E30 M3, that boat has long sailed (in terms of price)!

As for CA, I'd absolutely want it on my cars, but the way BMW has it setup, I'm going to skip. They should have left it as a standalone option, rather than put it in a $4300 package
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      03-24-2015, 12:26 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
As for CA, I'd absolutely want it on my cars, but the way BMW has it setup, I'm going to skip. They should have left it as a standalone option, rather than put it in a $4300 package
It will be standard on all BMWs at some point very soon since the competition will be too strong (and customer demands) given how far it has penetrated into low priced cars here in 2015. In the meantime, BMW is doing what BMW tries to do best -- milk the customer for as much as possible until you have to yield.
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      03-24-2015, 12:41 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Regarding #2 -- exactly right. The F8x with its solidly mounted rear subframe is more hard-core than any prior M3 in numerous aspects (although as TC Kline mentions, the electric steering feedback at/near the limits of adhesion is something missed from the hydraulic days), and apparently BMW is getting their fair share of complaints from owners about road noise from the rear end, lol. If you look at everything BMW M did on the F8x platform, it's a very impressive accomplishment from an engineering perspective. One example is the body-in-white torsional and bending rigidity which is one of the stiffest structures ever built for a production car; as the M chief mentioned in his video (on the board here somewhere), the torsional bending number is over 40,000 N-m/degree which is stiffer than caged race cars of the recent past.

Regarding #3 -- I wouldn't buy a car without comfort access anymore. Weight gain is measured in ounces, and it's just wonderful to have. Our E90 330i we ordered a bit over 9 years ago was spec'd with it, and so when I went on my E90 M3 no-sunroof 6MT hunt about 3 years ago, it was one option I wasn't going to miss having. However, on the F8x, for it not to be standard is a crime when $25k cars everywhere nowadays have it standard (i.e. like the rental 2015 Mustang I had recently).

Seriously, everyone should just enjoy each generation of the M3 for exactly what it is and how it was built during its lifespan. Each wasn't/isn't perfect just like there will never be a perfect car. If you went back and drove a bone stock E30 M3 on its 15" 205/55 tires, etc, right now, you'd think it was dog slow, had massive body roll, etc. These cars are all fantastic, and I'd love to have a garage with pristine examples of each generation.

Regards,
Chuck
Chuck,

Love your posts man - so you coming to the f80 party?

I'm about to crack 10k miles on the f80. My e39 m5 was on a dinan stage 2 suspension, but this car is only "slightly" harder than that e39 m5. It's slightly louder, slightly harder, but rides a bit better with a modern, new, adaptive suspension. And obviously not as luxurious interior. It is worlds more agile though, helped tremendously by it's steering ratio.

Regarding comfort access: I agree. However, I didn't buy my f80 with comfort access because:

1. I refused to spend $4k on comfort access and a rear camera, the only two options I wanted out of the package.

2. I like having a car without 10 cut-outs in the bumper for parking distance pimples and headlight washers (10!!) and I couldn't get comfort access without all those extras.

...

I'm switching back to summer tires today. I think this car is more DD-enjoyable than any previous M3 but alot of it comes down to a chassis more suitable for performance and a suspension more tunable for comfort. It's not like this version has more sound insulation/isolation than the e90.
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