Car & Driver Long-Term M3

[ASAP]

This is my political contribution... you are all-

[solstice]

I suspect that most negative comments from reviewers of the F8X comes down to the same general "issue".

The F8X has a composite feel to it instead of a metal feel ( not to say it's made entirely of plastics ) . Plastics has many great aspects to it, it's light, strong, perfect in shape and it's durable with no oxidation etc. However it's also a dead/clinical material which transmits less natural feel than metal. It also has an inherent "cheap" feel of robotic mass production instead of classic mechanical engineering craftsmanship.

When I was a little kid I had many toy cars. One of my favorites was a 1964 die cast Mustang convertible. Not because Mustangs were my favorite car, far from it but due to how the car felt. It was not the "fastest" or highest quality ( though I think it was Corgi Toys ), the doors squeaked when opened and the rubber clad tires could' not out-roll any of the plastic cars perfectly shaped low friction wheels but it had this feel of being lovingly and well engineered and it just felt good in the hands when holding and operating.

The F8X is awesome in many ways but to me it lacks some in feel, I still like it a lot and it's a worthy M3, just of a new era which take some time to fully get used to.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Chuck,

Love your posts man - so you coming to the f80 party?

I don't think so. I really don't want a car that large again at this point. Granted it's about the size of the E39 (large enough!), but it "feels" a lot bigger from behind the wheel with the long, high hood and very high rear deck level, etc. I love the way "older" cars feel wrapped tight around you like the E39, E90, my S4, etc, but I too am old, so I guess that makes sense. I'd probably have issues with the steering too (on closed course events of course) after having talked with two people who likely have more track time than anyone in the F80 over the past year (no names) with decades of experience (not to mention TC Kline's comments about the same issue)...both of them said that you kind of get used to the poor feedback approaching/at/over the limits of adhesion up front since you have to accommodate to that since there is no other option, lol, you just deal with it, carefully at first.

Of course the F8x isn't competitive in SCCA autocross classed in B-street. On many courses I think it is likely slower than the E9x even (which is in F-street) which is a wonderful car for F-street competition. The length and width of the F8x combined with its over-bearing torque are all hindrances to medium to fast autocross courses. Trying to put down power coming off elements with all that torque is a challenge, sort of similar to the E39 M5 which just can't wait to spin the rears with its barroom brawler type of low-midrange torque (of course the F80 is even more brutish in that respect). The E9x M3 is capable of top overall PAX times in the right hands, and is a hot mount at the current time.

We're looking to replace my wife's E90 330i, having owned it now for over 9 years and 130k miles, and the M2 is first on that list. It will be interesting to see what (if any?) improvements they've managed to build into the EPS take two on the M2. Hence I'm thinking of a major juggling coming up -- selling the M5 (after 12 years, will be very hard to do) and selling the 330i to make room for the M2.

Who knows though, I may just supercharge the M5 and keep it another 12 years!

[RedBolden]

This article means nothing to me, this will be my first ever BMW so I only have my old S4 to compare one to so I will not know if it is clinical or not, I just know that it will be fast and it looks amazing.

[W///]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I don't think so. I really don't want a car that large again at this point. Granted it's about the size of the E39 (large enough!), but it "feels" a lot bigger from behind the wheel with the long, high hood and very high rear deck level, etc. I love the way "older" cars feel wrapped tight around you like the E39, E90, my S4, etc, but I too am old, so I guess that makes sense. I'd probably have issues with the steering too (on closed course events of course) after having talked with two people who likely have more track time than anyone in the F80 over the past year (no names) with decades of experience (not to mention TC Kline's comments about the same issue)...both of them said that you kind of get used to the poor feedback approaching/at/over the limits of adhesion up front since you have to accommodate to that since there is no other option, lol, you just deal with it, carefully at first.

Of course the F8x isn't competitive in SCCA autocross classed in B-street. On many courses I think it is likely slower than the E9x even (which is in F-street) which is a wonderful car for F-street competition. The length and width of the F8x combined with its over-bearing torque are all hindrances to medium to fast autocross courses. Trying to put down power coming off elements with all that torque is a challenge, sort of similar to the E39 M5 which just can't wait to spin the rears with its barroom brawler type of low-midrange torque (of course the F80 is even more brutish in that respect). The E9x M3 is capable of top overall PAX times in the right hands, and is a hot mount at the current time.

We're looking to replace my wife's E90 330i, having owned it now for over 9 years and 130k miles, and the M2 is first on that list. It will be interesting to see what (if any?) improvements they've managed to build into the EPS take two on the M2. Hence I'm thinking of a major juggling coming up -- selling the M5 (after 12 years, will be very hard to do) and selling the 330i to make room for the M2.

Who knows though, I may just supercharge the M5 and keep it another 12 years!

I personally just foresee them dropping the same exact EPS from the M3/4 into the M2.

I've changed my mind regularly about the M2 and F80. The M2 is at the top of my list, because like you, the F80 just feels big to me. And it's not really practical enough to be my only "big" car because of my 2 dogs (an M3 Touring would have been PERFECT).

The only concern with the M2 would be the price. Since it doesn't look like it'll be getting a CF roof or an S engine, I hope BMW prices it accordingly. Then the other thing is that adding an M2 to my E36 M3 Coupe and E92 M3 will = 3 coupes. At least an F80 would change it up a little.

I guess the only way I'll figure it out is when I test drive an M2 when it comes out.

P.S: Selling an LMB E39 M5? You better not. That's instant regret!

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by W///

I personally just foresee them dropping the same exact EPS from the M3/4 into the M2.

I've changed my mind regularly about the M2 and F80. The M2 is at the top of my list, because like you, the F80 just feels big to me. And it's not really practical enough to be my only "big" car because of my 2 dogs (an M3 Touring would have been PERFECT).

The only concern with the M2 would be the price. Since it doesn't look like it'll be getting a CF roof or an S engine, I hope BMW prices it accordingly. Then the other thing is that adding an M2 to my E36 M3 Coupe and E92 M3 will = 3 coupes. At least an F80 would change it up a little.

I guess the only way I'll figure it out is when I test drive an M2 when it comes out.

P.S: Selling an LMB E39 M5? You better not. That's instant regret!

Yep, I can't fathom not having the M5 (yet).

If I was in the market for a sedan to replace my M5 or M3 here in 2015, and it was to be a new car, I would absolutely buy the F80 M3, hands down. 6MT of course. I don't know of *any* current production 6MT sedan that even comes close to checking all the boxes the F80 M3 checks. It's a fantastic car, and I'm sure it would be greatly enjoyable to own. Like all the other generations, you enjoy it for what it is and don't fret over what it's not.

If Ford could build a GT350 sedan...that might be an interesting option though.

[Black Gold]

The m3 is the best option available and I love 90% of it

Downsides are its too big and heavy. The size is really the only thing that bothers me.

Outside of that it's fantastic imo

[Brindle101]

Originally Posted by myzmak

Agreed. CCBs are great for reviewers flailing them around on the track (hence all the 'tick that box' reviews) but just expensive and much less useful for 99% of the use of this car. So any review that looks at value will not appreciate those; further, they are so expensive relative to the rest of the car that their inclusion can have a big overall impact.

But, whatevs. Car and Driver have been wrong about other cars before (Infiniti G37 anyone? PT Cruiser? 300M? The 1994 Lexus SC? Good lord. The worst car ever, and there it is on their fecking list....) so I am not going to be overly fussed whichever way they go (or by their decision to drop the 3 series in favour of the M235, which probably is a better car anyway, if much, much more niche)

I have the CCB's, and they are awesome. You don't need to be on the track to appreciate them. The grip is awesome, and they grip very high with much less pedal travel. If you plan on driving the car a lot or keeping it long, remember these brakes ladt about 3x longer than the steelies. This helps defray the cost a little

[pikkagtr]

Originally Posted by Brindle101

I have the CCB's, and they are awesome. You don't need to be on the track to appreciate them. The grip is awesome, and they grip very high with much less pedal travel. If you plan on driving the car a lot or keeping it long, remember these brakes ladt about 3x longer than the steelies. This helps defray the cost a little

Have you seen the thread on replacement cost on the CCB ? $17k for the set?
I think even if I keep the m3 for 1 million miles, I still wouldn't spend $17k on my factory steel brake replacements.
I honestly think I a few years it would be harder to get a good price on a f8x without CCB since if the owner knew about the replacement cost of the CCB and the car is on its original set with a few track days and 40k+ miles.... He would likely spend thousands in the near future to replace them .

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Of course the F8x isn't competitive in SCCA autocross classed in B-street. On many courses I think it is likely slower than the E9x even (which is in F-street) which is a wonderful car for F-street competition. The length and width of the F8x combined with its over-bearing torque are all hindrances to medium to fast autocross courses. Trying to put down power coming off elements with all that torque is a challenge, sort of similar to the E39 M5 which just can't wait to spin the rears with its barroom brawler type of low-midrange torque (of course the F80 is even more brutish in that respect). The E9x M3 is capable of top overall PAX times in the right hands, and is a hot mount at the current time.

If you are looking to win the autox, isn't Miata the answer? at least it is in the SD BMWCCA region where the newsletter this past weekend reported that a miata beat all the BMW in attendance.

[smedin]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

The m3 is the best option available and I love 90% of it

Downsides are its too big and heavy. The size is really the only thing that bothers me.

Outside of that it's fantastic imo

At least it got lighter compared to last gen!

The only only only downside to this car is the kinda numb steering. But it's SO accurate, and responsive, this ends up being a MINOR complaint.

Honestly, the weight reduction is instantly noticeable, and punches up the driving experience significantly over the E90.

But. I digress. We've covered this. Endlessly...

[FTS]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Of course the F8x isn't competitive in SCCA autocross classed in B-street. On many courses I think it is likely slower than the E9x even (which is in F-street) which is a wonderful car for F-street competition. The length and width of the F8x combined with its over-bearing torque are all hindrances to medium to fast autocross courses. Trying to put down power coming off elements with all that torque is a challenge, sort of similar to the E39 M5 which just can't wait to spin the rears with its barroom brawler type of low-midrange torque (of course the F80 is even more brutish in that respect). The E9x M3 is capable of top overall PAX times in the right hands, and is a hot mount at the current time.

I think it is too early to count the F8x out from being competitive against the F9x even in Solo/Prosolo. It takes a while to develop a platform as you know, give it time. I don't think the E9x is competitive at all at the national level, at regional level it depends on the competition; in the Wash DC region or west coast I doubt it, and I don't think F8x will be competitive either, but it is too early to tell if it is better or worse than e9x IMHO.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

If you are looking to win the autox, isn't Miata the answer? at least it is in the SD BMWCCA region where the newsletter this past weekend reported that a miata beat all the BMW in attendance.

No not at all. SCCA has a strict classing system, and the E9x M3 along with the S550 Mustang are *the* cars in F-street -- expect multiple national trophies this year by the E9x M3 as competitors are realizing its potential (one almost won in 2013, first year it was eligible in F-stock/street class). Miatas are in E-street -- totally different class and irrelevant to the discussion, although if you're talking about absolute times, E9x M3 F-street class top easily beat the best Miata times at the Nationals last year, but again, irrelevant since these cars are not classed together.

Just like at the track, the driver is a huge component of the equation. (spoken as a 40 year autocrosser, 35 year track/time trial/instructor).

Regards,
Chuck

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Regarding #2 -- exactly right. The F8x with its solidly mounted rear subframe is more hard-core than any prior M3 in numerous aspects (although as TC Kline mentions, the electric steering feedback at/near the limits of adhesion is something missed from the hydraulic days), and apparently BMW is getting their fair share of complaints from owners about road noise from the rear end, lol. If you look at everything BMW M did on the F8x platform, it's a very impressive accomplishment from an engineering perspective. One example is the body-in-white torsional and bending rigidity which is one of the stiffest structures ever built for a production car; as the M chief mentioned in his video (on the board here somewhere), the torsional bending number is over 40,000 N-m/degree which is stiffer than caged race cars of the recent past.

Regarding #3 -- I wouldn't buy a car without comfort access anymore. Weight gain is measured in ounces, and it's just wonderful to have. Our E90 330i we ordered a bit over 9 years ago was spec'd with it, and so when I went on my E90 M3 no-sunroof 6MT hunt about 3 years ago, it was one option I wasn't going to miss having. However, on the F8x, for it not to be standard is a crime when $25k cars everywhere nowadays have it standard (i.e. like the rental 2015 Mustang I had recently).

Seriously, everyone should just enjoy each generation of the M3 for exactly what it is and how it was built during its lifespan. Each wasn't/isn't perfect just like there will never be a perfect car. If you went back and drove a bone stock E30 M3 on its 15" 205/55 tires, etc, right now, you'd think it was dog slow, had massive body roll, etc. These cars are all fantastic, and I'd love to have a garage with pristine examples of each generation.

Regards,
Chuck

The E30 ///M may be a 'dog' today compared to what else is out there but also line up all its competition (that was avail in the US) at the time and it's a different story.

Everything has to be taken in context.

Line up the M3/4 alongside its comp (in the US) and again the level of engineering is unreal for the price. The engine, the chassis, suspension, electronics, options etc etc.

T

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by FTS

I think it is too early to count the F8x out from being competitive against the F9x even in Solo/Prosolo. It takes a while to develop a platform as you know, give it time. I don't think the E9x is competitive at all at the national level, at regional level it depends on the competition; in the Wash DC region or west coast I doubt it, and I don't think F8x will be competitive either, but it is too early to tell if it is better or worse than e9x IMHO.

It won't be competitive with the E9x since the F8x is in B-street where it will have a hard time against the cars in the that class.

As to the E9x M3 competitiveness at the national level, I guess you don't follow SCCA events and Nationals? In 2013 an E9x M3, driven by a board member here (see the threads in the E9x section here under track/autocross section) came within a hair of winning 1st overall in F-stock. He won the 2nd day course outright. That woke up everyone. Since then the E9x M3 has done very well at many events, including winning at the San Diego Pro Tour just the weekend before last and PAXing near the top of the field. Hence it's bizarre to "doubt" the potential of the platform when there are already proven results to the contrary.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

It won't be competitive with the E9x since the F8x is in B-street where it will have a hard time against the cars in the that class.

As to the E9x M3 competitiveness at the national level, I guess you don't follow SCCA events and Nationals? In 2013 an E9x M3, driven by a board member here (see the threads in the E9x section here under track/autocross section) came within a hair of winning 1st overall in F-stock. He won the 2nd day course outright. That woke up everyone. Since then the E9x M3 has done very well at many events, including winning at the San Diego Pro Tour just the weekend before last and PAXing near the top of the field. Hence it's bizarre to "doubt" the potential of the platform when there are already proven results to the contrary.

i don't really care about autocross, but I think you should be a little more clear in what you are saying

your original posts made it seem like you were saying the e9x was a superior performance platform for auto-x. now, you clarify that the e9x advantage is because it is in a lower class/group if I am reading your post properly.

that's a pretty important distinction, thanks for clearing it up.

personally, im much faster in my f8x on any track than my e9x, but im just an average driver.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

i don't really care about autocross, but I think you should be a little more clear in what you are saying

your original posts made it seem like you were saying the e9x was a superior performance platform for auto-x. now, you clarify that the e9x advantage is because it is in a lower class/group if I am reading your post properly.

that's a pretty important distinction, thanks for clearing it up.

personally, im much faster in my f8x on any track than my e9x, but im just an average driver.

I do think on the typical autox course the E9x will beat the F8x due to the limitations I mentioned (and my car's performance against two F8x on a time trail autox type course back in Feb). The F8x strong suit is not tight, technical work due to its width, length but importantly the ability to put power down coming off elements (Chicago boxes, turn around cones, slalom exits, etc). It will take very careful throttle management which with the torque available requires a lot of attention to maximize longitudinal progress without overplaying latitudinal grip. I have a lot of experience with big torque RWD in these situations -- if stock class was still on R-comps and you could stuff some 315 Hoosier A6s out back, the story would be a bit better.

The SCCA classed the car in B-street simply due to their guess of where to put it (like how they originally had the E9x M3 in A-stock). It will be interesting to see if any top level drivers actually prep one and bring it to an event. The competition in B-street is huge and spread amongst S2000 and C5 Vettes that are kings in that arena. In reality the F8x likely belongs in F-street.

[Vectors2final]

If Sam Strano can do it in Mustangs and Corvettes, I'm sure someone can do it in a F8X.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Vectors2final

If Sam Strano can do it in Mustangs and Corvettes, I'm sure someone can do it in a F8X.

H&R makes a 2-position adjustable front bar for the F8x now, so with that, and 18" wheels (have to be stock widths of course and offset +/-7mm from stock) with the new BFG Rival S tires, 275/35 in front and 295/35 in rear. Leave the shocks alone for now. One problem with the F8x is that, from my understanding, the front camber pins that were present on the E46 and E9x are gone; hence the F8x is stuck with factory (insufficient) front camber, but it is what it is, so you run it. Slight toe-out alignment up front, rear camber ~-1.5ish with very slight toe-in...something along those lines.

The larger front bar will help with turn-in and transitions along with making it easier to hook up the rear under side loads.

Still don't think B-street will work for it though, sadly. It needs to be in F-street most likely.

I'd love to try out a setup F8x if anyone has one for a co-drive locally. The THSCC has our novice school this weekend if anyone in the area is new to the sport and interested.

[JoeFromPA]

This is good stuff - I'm about to start my f8x "racing" experience in the Philly SCCA autocross courses which are far more accessible to me for full day events with a 5 month old and 2.5 year old at home.

My experience in autocross is very limited but I very mildly disagree with Chuck's assessment. This car can put down power very nicely but yes, it requires lots of skill with the direction of the car, loading on the tires, and throttle input. HOWEVER, from what I understand and my experience with the f80 over 9-10k miles now, is:

1. The diff is superior to former diffs
2. Sport Plus throttle mode - no way. However, sport and efficient modes are excellent choices that are far less disruptive to rear end traction. Efficient mode requires almost no throttle skill, and Sport mode requires modest skill to avoid significant MDM intervention at WOT.
3. It's wider and longer but lighter and appears, with it's chassis, and in sport plus mode, to control it's weight better and shift weight less than the e90 (I'm going off others comments on this)

I'm no expert here I'm just going off my own experience with this throttle and engine output and my understanding of what I've read. I realize the e9x platform has some things going for it on tight and technical courses - smoother power delivery more reliant upon RPM building than raw torque output, smaller wheelbase, etc...

Chuck: I find it interesting that ~5 years after the e9x platform came out it came onto the autocross scene in a big way. Why do you think that is?

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Chuck: I find it interesting that ~5 years after the e9x platform came out it came onto the autocross scene in a big way. Why do you think that is?

Cost is the main factor and people were afraid to buy a car for A-stock that they know shouldn't be in that class. Although board member Richbot kicked tail in A-stock with his E90 M3 in the midwest back in 2012. The big move happened in 2013 when it was rightly moved into F-stock, now F-street. Now the car could compete with cars of the same size, power and weight. Which, btw, is where the F8x should likely be classed, but the SCCA SEB never underclasses a new and expensive car hence it's stuck in B-street.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Cost is the main factor and people were afraid to buy a car for A-stock that they know shouldn't be in that class. Although board member Richbot kicked tail in A-stock with his E90 M3 in the midwest back in 2012. The big move happened in 2013 when it was rightly moved into F-stock, now F-street. Now the car could compete with cars of the same size, power and weight. Which, btw, is where the F8x should likely be classed, but the SCCA SEB never underclasses a new and expensive car hence it's stuck in B-street.

The 2015 435i is classed as F street. I would think the M3 would be B-street based upon the cars I see there.